Keeping a colt entire??

[_jetset_]

Someone asked me the other day what I would prefer, a filly or a colt. I said I wasn't particularly bothered, but when I started thinking about it, the more I have talking myself into quite liking a colt (I actually do think she will throw a colt).

However, having read some articles and breeding books, it seems there is a bit of a mix in opinions when the colt should be gelded. Some books say before weaning, some say at weaning, and others say the colt's first spring after weaning...

Hannah is due in March (as you all probably know there has been so many posts about it) so the foal will be weaned September or October depending on how mature it is and how fed up Hannah is with it by then.

But I have read that by gelding a horse too soon it can lose some of its presence in the ring. I really want this foal to be my top hat and tails horse, so obviously I want it to have as much presence as possible. Someone has suggested leaving it entire until it is a little older, but would that mean having to send it back to stud?

It will be one in the March which is a little early in the year to castrate as they need to be out on grass I think, so would it still be ok being in a herd (well, with one or two other geldings) until perhaps the summer of that year?

Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Rebecca

 

[Claireg9]

Keep it entire, Stallions have so much more presence!
So you'd have to adapt fields and get a certificate to keep it (I think) but so many make top flight as they have the right attitude and have looks to burn!
I love stallions, when i win the lottery and get my own place, im gonna get me one!

 

[_jetset_]

Although my parents are talking about buying somewhere with land in the future, I cannot guarantee that will be before I would need to move the colt. As I am on a livery yard, there are actually no suitable fields for a stallion...

 

[severnmiles]

I definately disagree with cutting a colt at weaning, some can get very stressed and almost depressed at weaning and its likely that they will go down hill and won't pick up for a month or so, I wouldn't want to add to his stress.

If you can its best to leave them aslong as possible but then that depends on his temperment, your set up at your yard, if you're on livery e.t.c

 

[burtie]

I had mine gelded at 8 months over the winter, it's cheaper and less stressful the smaller and younger they are. Unless you seriously wnat to keep him as a stallion geld as soons as possible. I plan to do Dressage with mine and I don't think he'll lack presence.

 

[_jetset_]

My livery set up is:

The colt would possibly be going out with an older horse and a TB ex-racer when it is old enough as I don't want to put it in with the herd as there have been a few kicks etc recently. Therefore, it would be kept away from the mares in the field where they would all be until July/August time.

Would 17 months be too old to cut if he is not in a stallion type enclosure? And would he have got some stallion characteristics and presence by this time?

 

[severnmiles]

It also depends how the vet does it, I'm not keen when they knock them right out, I've seen 3 done like that and depending on your facilities bringing them around can be dangerous!

I've seen about 20 done stood up, jab in the neck, jab in the balls, slit, twist, off they come....far nicer and alot less stressful and those were 3-5y.o's.

 

[severnmiles]

They don't usually start 'acting' like colts until they're around the 2y.o mark, some are boisterous sods as foals but change around weaning time.

As you're on livery will you have a seperate field for Hannah and baby? Also one thing that annoys me at liveries is I think shod horses and unshod horses shouldn't ever be turned out together, a young colt, or filly for that matter may p*ss off an older horse so make sure he/she isn't turned out with anything thats a known to be handy with its hind legs.

 

[SillyMare]

I agree with the point above about castration at the point of weening - the foal has enough to contend with at that time - but the earlier it is done the better.

Keeping a colt entire is a massive undertaking - you need to think about how you would keep him, whether you have enough experienced people around to handle him and whether you really want to take on schooling / competing a stallion (or whether you can afford to pay someone else to do so).

Would you have him graded as a 4 year old? If he passed you could sell him for a lot of money, but then most colts fail (and those are the ones presented by professional breeders) - what would you do with a 4 year-old entire who knows he is a man? Gelding at that age can be far more difficult and traumatic.

The reason that competition stallions always have loads of ability and looks to die for, is because if they didn't then they would have been gelded ages ago. It is nothing to do with the fact they are entire. In fact certainly for eventing, stallions are supposed to be far more difficult to compete - rather than being exceptionally brave and fearless they can struggle to keep their mind on the job and are not always the boldest (perhaps because their sense of self-preservation is highly developed).

It is a romantic idea to keep your colt entire so you can continue the line, but probably not really an option for most non-professional riders.

 

[_jetset_]

To be honest, I would not really want to keep it entire to breed from, more for the presence in the dressage arena. Many books say that a gelding does not have the same carriage etc as a stallion...

I would be having it cut, but I am just trying to find out the best time to do it without jepodising it's future career (fingers, toes etc all crossed) as I really do want to get to the Nationals with this horse. It is my main reason for breeding it... I am not planning on ever selling it, it is for personal use.

Severnmiles... Hannah and foalie will have their own field for as long as I want and then when it comes to weaning the mares field and the one the foal will be going in are quite a distance apart.

It will be going out with an unshod older horse, but the TB is shod which is something I will have to deal with when I get to it (could be that horse goes back in with the geldings for this period) and it also might be going out with an unshod youngster (3-4 years old).

 

[severnmiles]

"Gelding at that age can be far more difficult and traumatic."

I don't agree with that comment!

But I agree with everything else Sillymare is saying, I had a lovely colt last year, he went out with mares and filly's and was the quietest horse on the yard but I also know Relli my old trak wouldn't move further than 2 steps before he'd rear when he came over from Germany, he was cut as a 3y.o and had no stallion traits at all.

 

[_jetset_]

So Severnmiles... would you say my thoughts of doing it the summer of 2008 (he would be 17-18 months old) would be ok?

Rebecca x

 

[severnmiles]

I'd say so, though watch the flies around the summer though, maybe better to aim Spring or Autumn. I think Pat (Maesfenhorse) had her Joey done at a similar age to that didn't she.

 

[JM7]

they can act "colty" from as early as 3 months...the testosterone certainly was flowing with ours by then!!

seriously colty, erections, mounting mum, humans..ANYTHING!!

If he wasnt sold on, he would have been gelded at 4 months!!

his bollox were well down and ENORMOUS!!!

 

[JM7]

if you want him as a gelding..do it before this winter.....he will be a much nicer person..next spring, with the fresh grass, fillies in season, he'll be a nightmare!!

 

[severnmiles]

They can indeed, but weaning and putting them out with some 'nanny's' to keep them inline often cures that problem.

 

[_jetset_]

Thanks everyone... I am a little clearer on things than I was this morning.

I don't think I want to do it too early as the weaning could be quite traumatic so I think I would rather get that out of the way first before I wean the foal, if indeed it does turn out to be a colt.

I can't believe how much there is to think about when breeding.

 

[lennysmith]

Hehe snap JM Denver has the hugest set of doodahs I've ever seen! He too likes to show his bits off!! Didn't think they got erections at that age??!!! My kids thought it was hillarious when he was showing them how 'clever' he was the other day!!! He's always mounting his poor mother and me and my friend if he can.

Unfortunately the flies are just everywhere at the mo. Or he'd be gettting chopped NOW!! So think he'll go to a friends at weaning and then be gelded there once he's settled prob about November ish.

 

[Lill]

We have a 16 month old colt who has not been gelded as of yet and he is turned out with 3/4 other geldings. They all get on fine but he has become a little stallion like although this is only really noticeable when leading a mare through his field! We are currently in 2 minds as to whether to keep him entire or to geld him! So um yer i think my point there is that yours should be fine to be kept with 2 geldings!

 

[_jetset_]

Thank you very much Lis... I know all horses are different, but just getting other people's experiences is so helpful!

I am getting more and more used to the idea of having a colt now, whereas when she was first put in foal I wanted a filly because I love mares temperments!

 

[severnmiles]

[ QUOTE ]
if you want him as a gelding..do it before this winter.....he will be a much nicer person..next spring, with the fresh grass, fillies in season, he'll be a nightmare!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Not neccessarily, it depends on the horse. Singing Stud had a colt Hamlet that was as quiet as cob at 3y.o. and Gatlin is a 2y.o and like a little lamb. Other's have been a nightmare as yearlings so it just depends on the horse. If I was keeping Archie I'd leave him for aslong as it was bearable. I don't think the length of time affects their character as Relli was done as a mature 3y.o and was one of the easiest horses in the stable and ridden yet he was horrid when he possessed his balls!

 

[sleepingdragon10]

[ QUOTE ]
Keep it entire, Stallions have so much more presence!
So you'd have to adapt fields and get a certificate to keep it (I think) but so many make top flight as they have the right attitude and have looks to burn!
I love stallions, when i win the lottery and get my own place, im gonna get me one!

[/ QUOTE ]

Keeping a horse entire just for 'presence' is nigh on irresponsible. There's a little more to it than just having to adapt fields!!

 

[Sarah1]

I haven't read all the posts thoroughly so apologies if I am repeating something that's already been said!!!!!
I'm no breeding expert but I have been told that the best thing for the horse is to have the colt gelded as soon as possible but you will have to wait til they have both *ahem* dropped!!

I think the thinking behind that is that there is less chance of riggish behaviour!
We have a gelding at our yard who we believe ran with mares and was gelded late (he was imported from Belgium I think) and when the mares are in season he's a complete pain for us and I don't think it's much fun for him either!

Unless you were thinking of breeding from him I would never keep a colt entire - they require far more specialist management than a mare or a gelding!

 

[_jetset_]

I think I am going to go along with what you said severnmiles... the thing is I am planning on keeping the foal to compete on, and I do not intend selling it unless I absolutely have to for financial reasons.

I am going to try and leave it as long as possible, so it can have some stallion attributes to its character but if it starts getting too much for me or for the yard where I am, then I will have it gelded. I think I would rather wait until the autumn (the colt would be 18-19 months then) but if it is still ok then until the following spring.

I am quite a confident person around horses of all temperments and a firm handler. When I first bought my 16.2hh IDxTB mare she had no manners at all, even though she was 5/6 years old. I had to go right back to basics with her as she obviously had not been handled that much and if she had, she had been allowed to get away with everything.

I also have a good support network from the stud where she was inseminated, to people on the yard who have bred quite a few foals in the past... So I am hoping I can learn more and more as I go on.

I do think that people do not realise the care and attention needed for looking after stallions, and you are right sleepngdragon that it is a lot more than the fencing.

Rebecca

 

[Claireg9]

good luck...
lets hope it doesnt turn out to be a mare after all this lol!!
whatever it is im sure it will be beautifull and give you much pleasure!
x

 

[_jetset_]

It probably will be after all of this, LOL!

 

[Maesfen]

As Sara said, I usually have my colts done in the spring, the earlier the better to be away from flies. I too, don't like it when they are weaned and immediately cut without a thought to their welfare but I know of good reports of them when done while still on the dam and then weaned maybe two months after that. This way, the dam 'kisses' him better, he has the comfort of her milk and company and very soon forgets the whole affair but this way can only be done when both balls have descended completely, it is not an option if they haven't. If I had a horrendous colt I might consider that then but until then I'll stick to the spring.

It's not so much that they have more presence (stallions competing) but that ten to one they have been prepared and trained more professionally and are therefore better able to develop the correct outline, carriage and muscle tone. At the end of the day, a horse either has presence or it doesn't; late gelding is not going to improve on that, but give it the correct work and you will see a vast difference because the muscle and tone will be where you want it to be enabling the horse to work even better. Some foals are born with presence (you are priviliged to be in their company!

) while others are just cute! Those that have THE presence (to my mind anyway, but I'm sure there are lots others so don't shout if I haven't included yours - and these are ones I've been taking a big interest in) are - in no particular order cos I don't want to offend anyone either!

Spider belonging to Bananaman (?) Hector and Denver (who need no introductions! They all shout presence from the rooftops imo but it wouldn't actually matter if they are worked correctly or not, they just HAVE IT!!

Keeping a colt of any age at livery can be a difficult process. By his very sex he will be discriminated against by the other liveries at the very least and will not be able to enjoy the same freedom than if he were a filly or been gelded. Turnout could be a big problem especially if he is colty, extra strong fencing will be needed so he doesn't get ideas about running at it, through it, anything just so he can get to others so he might have to have his turnout restricted which is no life for a youngster; they need to be able to play and intermingle, preferably with people their own ages so I would be very wary of keeping him a colt any longer than absolutely necessary; if you had your own land, that is a totally different kettle of fish.
Of course, she could have a filly this time so all this is a waste of speculation!

 

[Tia]

Do be aware that there is a theory that by keeping a colt a colt for longer, you end up with a smaller animal. If the colt was mine, I would geld in the spring at a year old providing all "bits" are there.

 

[_jetset_]

Thanks Tiaribbon...

I didn't know that, thanks for letting me know. Is there a reason for this?

Rebecca

 

[Tia]

They say that because the animal is so busy producing testosterone, that height/filling out takes second stage. It could be true as my stallion is not nearly as big as we would have expected, however that could also be down to his serious injury as a foal. Who knows.