Keeping a colt entire??

[henryhorn]

I have to bite my lip when replying to a question like yours and not be too sharp a reply!
The basic answer is if you feel you have to even ask this question, you are not suitable to have an entire..
That sweet little colt of six months unless kept in a herd with possibly bite, kick, run pat and leg out at you, and be a demon to handle some days. At 17 months old it may be 15.2hh and strong enough to send you flying.
We castrate ours as yearlings but they are firmly kept in line by the mare herd, the odd one as a younger colt if they display bonking tendancies.
Please don't even consider this, you need experience and the facilities to cope with colts..

 

[S_N]

I have to say that I agree with HH here! If you are asking about it, it does beg the question will you be able to cope with him and the stress of having an entire on a largish livery yard?

Also IMHO it is verging on cruelty to keep a stallion and deprive him of his natural instinct to reproduce.

Also, think of all the TOP, TOP dressage horses - Rembrandt, Bonfire, Gigolo, Rusty, Salinero, Arherlic (sp?), Wily Trout, Douglas Dorsey, Escapado, Dolendo.........

 

[severnmiles]

SN, I haven't a clue what HH has written as I nolonger view her posts. So I can't comment on that but as much as I agree with what you're saying I think Becki is asking more for advice on when to cut her colt (if she gets one..it'll probably be a little lady now

). I personally wouldn't consider keeping a colt over a yearling (12-16months) on a livery yard as its less than ideal.

Pat tells me you're visiting soon? Archie is being weaned in a 2/3 weeks, I'm going to miss him

have you sold Mr scrummy or are you keeping him now?

 

[VikkiBP]

A colt will tell you when he 'needs' gelding. It's not so bad if you have your own land, but some YOs won't accept colts at livery, or if they do they isolate them, which is not good for the colts wellbeing. I had to geld mine at 14 months as he was unruly with men, (fine with me) and my OH gave me the choice of bullet or castrate as he found him unmanageable. I know people who have had theirs castrated at 6 months and who is to know if there would have been any difference. My own preference is to leave them as long as I can just in case there is a difference. As it happened with my chap castrating him made little difference to his attitude towards men so I wished i'd kept him entire longer, he was still a cocky devil at 4 years although more manageable but to be honest thats why I bought him in the first place as a weanling because of his presence and attitude so I could hardly complain. He's the first foal I've had that volunteered a spanish walk when he was being shown off, tilted his head at stared at me right in the eyes as though he was checking ME out. He was magnificent and so very funny

 

[_jetset_]

Thank you everyone... HH, I do value your opinion, but I also think everyone has to start somewhere when it comes to handling stallions. I have met quite a few, and they have been very good because they were kept in check from a very early age. I am not a soft/nervous owner, and have had all of the problems you have stated with my VERY marey mare! We have been there and got the T-Shirt, and she was a big 16.2hh IDxTB when I got her as a 5 year old who had had virtually no handling and was rude, bargy, stroppy and very hormonal!

I am not planning on keeping it as a stallion at this moment in time, I was more interested to see when they should be cut because of all the contradicting information available to breeders. I have also been in contact with the stud where Hannah went, and they are more than happy to take my colt (if it is) if I did think of keeping it entire (they seem quite keen worryingly...) but at the moment that is just not an option.

I have heard so many people speak of geldings not having the same presence in a dressage arena if they are gelded quite early, and I do understand why this could be. After all, a mare is still whole whereas a gelding has been castrated so surely it is the same as when a dog is??

I do know there are the exceptions, of course there always are. Escapado and Douglas are exceptional animals, but I do not know at what age they were gelded... which is more the point of this post.

Sorry, I didn't mean to be sharp or cause offense. I just think my post has been taken completely the wrong way. I was never saying I was going to keep him entire forever, just when was the best time to geld him without affecting his chances as a competition horse.

Rebecca

 

[S_N]

PMSL!!! Fair enough! Though I must say that I took this post in slightly the wrong way - so appologies Rebecca!!!

As far as gelding is concerned - it makes no odds whatsoever when they are gelded! I've known plenty of working stallions that have been cut due to not producing the goods! I also think that after 9 months of age, they are pains the backside!! BUT, if they are of good sound temperament, then maybe leaving them a little longer could help with their development. BUT IMHO it doesn't really make any difference to their growth rate. As has been said before, I personally wouldn't cut at the time of weaning either.

SM - yup am coming up at the end of the month - would love to meet you! Possibly have an interested party in H........

 

[Maesfen]

And I have to hold my hands up with horror when I realised I hadn't included Archie on my 'list'!
How could I have forgotten him, he is a star in the making! I am so

about that!
Many apologies to you, him and Jenny; how could I forget him when I was responsible for him in the first place!?

............
runs away shaking head at own foolishness!

Becci! We can only advise based on our own experiences but the ultimate decision is yours of course; but I hope you have managed to sift the wheat from the chaff! It's been an interesting post and all to your credit that you are thinking things through now while there isn't a hassle of making an immediate decision which you might have regretted later (or not, as the case may be) if that makes sense,

 

[henryhorn]

I am not in the slightest bit disturbed by your reply, but I stand by my original answer..
if you can keep your colt in the stud herd that would be fine, but if you intend to keep him on a normal livery yard then it's highly unlikely it will be manageable, from the other owners point of view or the yard owners.
I agree everyone has to start somewhere, we all did, but talking about keeping a colt entire as long as possible is not something a first time breeder should be contemplating, why should the poor colt have to learn through your possible mistakes?
Presence is something horses have or don't. Monty for instance is jaw dropping when working properly and has attracted numerous comments to that effect, yet as a stallion he might have killed us I reckon..and we are well used to stallion behaviour.
The top dressage riders all keep their stallions together stabled next to each without any problems as a rule, but one colt is much harder to keep sensible, I don't know why, it just is.
The bloodlines you have should produce something really nice, why not stop jumping the gun and just enjoy seeing what you get?
My comments weren't directed at keeping any colt an entire to adulthood, believe me, the adult stallions are rarely any problems it's the yearling to three year olds that are little sh***! To give you an idea of what I faced, we bought a Section B two year old from an aution, seemed stunningly beautiful and well handled.
You took your life in your hands every time you handled it once it arrived home, and would literally pounce on you from behind, rearing and bringing it's front feet down on top of you.. He had been well shown and so knew to behave but just couldn't restrain himself from being dominant..
We sold him after gelding him first before he killed someone.
There is a massive difference in the thought processes of a male entire and a mare when they get dominant, and the stallion has the testosterone to make him quicker and more evil..
So I'm not saying you aren't capable but more a case of you need to realise what you would be taking on, and learning with a colt isn't really the best way to start, better go and help at the stud for a few weeks first, then at least you would be prepared rather than just thinking about it.

 

[burtie]

[ QUOTE ]
if you can keep your colt in the stud herd that would be fine

[/ QUOTE ]

Our local stud keeps all theirs entire until thay are obviously not going to be stallion potential, after all they are all pink papered and well bred and they are always looking for that one. Interestingly none show any stallion behaviour and in fact are very docile and don't have stallion presence. I asked about this and research has shown that groups of young colts kept together away from mares, have much lower hormone levels and are almost gelding like, it's like the bachelor herds of colts in the wild and is to stop them all fighting when there are no mares to fight over. This is why studs have few problems, but seperate a colt from the herd and the hormones kick back in. So in short leaving him entire is unlikely to make him any different if you keep him in the stud herd, and he'll just be a pain if you remove him.

When my colt was born, I wanted him gelded as soon as possible. Personally I think putting an older than necessary horse through gelding is actually rather cruel. But that is just my opinion!

 

[severnmiles]

I agree with all of that, thats how they were kept on the stud I used to work on. I have kept one colt to a 2y.o on his own and he was a saint, there is no set rule as to when to geld. The individual will tell you when he's ready to geld (unbeknown to him of course

). Some are loopy as young yearlings, others are saints throughout their lives, even as stallions, having said that everyone should respect how unpredictable a stallion can be.

 

[henryhorn]

Thanks Burtie, I realised ours stay remarkably uncolty when with the herd but never understood why.
We get ours done before the flies appear the year after they are born, they don't seem to suffer from lack of presence at all and having seen the deep unhappiness of the gelded 9 year old we bought as he was so confused, I'm all for early gelding..