Kevin Lemke overuse of the whip

[honetpot]

HN wrote a good article - https://horsenetwork.com/2021/02/co...M9ByVuoEPn8jP2ZDIssxEfoDHsUtHpFCeK7JDgAkpOjKE

I have been discussing with friends this week complicit silence in horses. It happens day in and day out. I have done it myself at an event when a top pro knocked seven bells out of a horse for it just having a pole in the warm up. It makes me uncomfortable that we are all complicit. There should be better protocols in place but there is a high risk of being blackballed if you do say anything. You might not even realise it has happened. Grooms who leave top riders yards (all much admired ones on social media) because they don’t like the treatment of the horses but again say nothing because it’s impossible to report and for anyone to follow up.

This kind of behaviour in the ring at least is governed and can be sanctioned.

I have always thought that every show should have roaming stewards who monitor the horse box lines and well as the collecting ring. Most of the larger venues have conditions of the show ground entry, even small shows do, and if you can provide evidence any abuse should be life time ban. There have been instances where children have been physically abused for not doing well in a competition, never mind the horses.
Most of the large organisations are run for the benefit of the 'sport', which brings a conflict of interest, because senior officers are paid. The abuse of young women in gymnastics has not been tackled in the way it should have been because discussing it openly would affect their income from grants and advertising, and these are often very young children.

 

[tallyho!]

I also posted a thread not knowing you’d started one too ester...

i should liked to have run over and dragged him off that poor brave horse, using his own whip to give him a taste of his own medicine and then asked a few stewards to help fling him into a few jumps.. (in my head anyway).

It’s what goes on behind closed doors that worries me. Disrespect to horses, disrepute to the sport. Fine and ban.

 

[tallyho!]

HN wrote a good article - https://horsenetwork.com/2021/02/co...M9ByVuoEPn8jP2ZDIssxEfoDHsUtHpFCeK7JDgAkpOjKE

I have been discussing with friends this week complicit silence in horses. It happens day in and day out. I have done it myself at an event when a top pro knocked seven bells out of a horse for it just having a pole in the warm up. It makes me uncomfortable that we are all complicit. There should be better protocols in place but there is a high risk of being blackballed if you do say anything. You might not even realise it has happened. Grooms who leave top riders yards (all much admired ones on social media) because they don’t like the treatment of the horses but again say nothing because it’s impossible to report and for anyone to follow up.

This kind of behaviour in the ring at least is governed and can be sanctioned.

I read this and thought about it....

I’m ashamed I’ve done it too! I was very young just a teenager. At what age should kids be educated to do the right thing? Equestrian employment and education is unregulated. You can just turn up and ask for a job anywhere if you’re willing to graft. You’d never bite the hand that feeds you... this is the culture.

 

[Cortez]

What goes on behind closed doors? Many years ago, in a land far, far away, I got my dream job with an Olympic dressage rider. I was very young and low on the pecking order at the yard. On my very first day, which was a Monday, the day the stables was officially closed, I was given the job of wiping the blood off the walls after Mr. Olympics had finished "training" a horse in piaffe by using two whips to repeatedly beat the horse under the belly and on the sheath. That first day was also my last day. I quit and reported the stable to the relevant governing federation and subsequently.....absolutely nothing was done.

 

[tallyho!]

What goes on behind closed doors? Many years ago, in a land far, far away, I got my dream job with an Olympic dressage rider. I was very young and low on the pecking order at the yard. On my very first day, which was a Monday, the day the stables was officially closed, I was given the job of wiping the blood off the walls after Mr. Olympics had finished "training" a horse in piaffe by using two whips to repeatedly beat the horse under the belly and on the sheath. That first day was also my last day. I quit and reported the stable to the relevant governing federation and subsequently.....absolutely nothing was done.

?

this is probably why I can’t watch competition anymore... it hurts.
I do want to compete again but I don’t want to see the abuse.
these creatures do not deserve it.

in my journey into classical riding I see those who’ve come from a witness situation, like me but we are not many. Not compared to the “professionals”. People who realise competition is sadly full of abuse.

Then you find that those people you meet don’t want to compete either because of the same reasons, and so who is left?

 

[fankino04]

If only it was. There are some who have such a competitive nature, they 'fight'. And if money at stake too, the situation is even more magnified.

Wasn't "competitive nature" Ollie townends excuse for THAT ride at badminton a few years ago??

 

[PurBee]

?

this is probably why I can’t watch competition anymore... it hurts.
I do want to compete again but I don’t want to see the abuse.
these creatures do not deserve it.

in my journey into classical riding I see those who’ve come from a witness situation, like me but we are not many. Not compared to the “professionals”. People who realise competition is sadly full of abuse.

Then you find that those people you meet don’t want to compete either because of the same reasons, and so who is left?

what you and Cortez have shared is just horrific to think this is more common than we realise.

Even if reported, nothing changes? Just shameful..

I think those low pecking order grooms in the industry who witness daily abuse of horses should employ technology and wear small hidden cameras as absolute proof, share with the media, and blow the whole industry wide open...THEN let’s see if these ‘policy authorities’ dare ignore it.

 

[tallyho!]

what you and Cortez have shared is just horrific to think this is more common than we realise.

Even if reported, nothing changes? Just shameful..

I think those low pecking order grooms in the industry who witness daily abuse of horses should employ technology and wear small hidden cameras as absolute proof, share with the media, and blow the whole industry wide open...THEN let’s see if these ‘policy authorities’ dare ignore it.

The technology is right here, right now. This is the time. I wonder what is recorded out there that’s not being shown for fear of rebuttals.

 

[SO1]

I expect like others grooms need an income, reporting their bosses bad behaviour would probably mean they would never work again in the equestrian industry. They may quietly walk away and more on to another yard. Often why people don't report inappropriate or illegal behaviour in their workplaces too.

If you look at the cases of the newton stud slurry pit even owners have difficulty in proving horses were neglected or not looked after as they should have been. Hopefully the owner of the horse has removed it from the care of the rider in this case.

This is all money no doubt as well as competitive drive, owners want their horse to do well and probably quick results, if they are not around much to observe the horses, they won't know how the horses are cared for or trained, some probably don't care as long they get the right results. Trainers and riders get business on their results. Professional riders and trainers may be more likely to treat the horses as commodities rather than pets.

Realistically most horse owners will have got frustrated or cross with their horse or even someone else's horse at some point when it has not behaved in the way they want to, it is just how you control your frustration and emotions to not take it out on your horse especially in such a violent way this man did.

what you and Cortez have shared is just horrific to think this is more common than we realise.

Even if reported, nothing changes? Just shameful..

I think those low pecking order grooms in the industry who witness daily abuse of horses should employ technology and wear small hidden cameras as absolute proof, share with the media, and blow the whole industry wide open...THEN let’s see if these ‘policy authorities’ dare ignore it.

 

[PurBee]

I expect like others grooms need an income, reporting their bosses bad behaviour would probably mean they would never work again in the equestrian industry. They may quietly walk away and more on to another yard. Often why people don't report inappropriate or illegal behaviour in their workplaces too.

If you look at the cases of the newton stud slurry pit even owners have difficulty in proving horses were neglected or not looked after as they should have been. Hopefully the owner of the horse has removed it from the care of the rider in this case.

This is all money no doubt as well as competitive drive, owners want their horse to do well and probably quick results, if they are not around much to observe the horses, they won't know how the horses are cared for or trained, some probably don't care as long they get the right results. Trainers and riders get business on their results. Professional riders and trainers may be more likely to treat the horses as commodities rather than pets.

Realistically most horse owners will have got frustrated or cross with their horse or even someone else's horse at some point when it has not behaved in the way they want to, it is just how you control your frustration and emotions to not take it out on your horse especially in such a violent way this man did.

Yes, of course its valid many grooms witness it but fear horrible consequences for their own careers should they report it.

What it takes then are under cover stable-hands that aren’t really with a career in the industry, but easily get a job at a yard as its all mucking out, labour-only type work. They dont care about retribution as they have no interest in the industry really to forge a career in it.
That’s how the expose’s are done on animal abuse establishments, Peta-minded menial workers with the sole aim of capturing footage of abuse. I recall USA big lick industry cases brought about via stable-hand footage of soring, drugging and beating horses.

The other way to prevent profit-hunger animal abuse it is to drain the money out of the sports. Let it be for entertainment only, no prize money. you get 100 quid ‘ticket money’ for the day, for showing up and entertaining the crowd, just like the fee a band playing in a pub gets of an evening.

Too drastic a change for todays industry i know, and there’s many genuine horse lovers in it too who lose out, but sometimes the rug has to be pulled out to prevent the continuous 2% violent abuse cases.

Zoo’s were once extremely popular until the poor management of a few and expose’s of abuse lead to the collapse of the whole industry.

It’s the bad apples which rot the entire cart, so those genuine folk in the industry, if they wish for it to remain should be keen to call-out terrible abuse, despite fear of loss.
They’ll receive support from fellow peers for their courage and eventually, those ‘whistle blowers’ will achieve a glowing reputation, if they fearless face the establishment to put an end to horse industry abuse.
Just like the hho ‘unmentionable place’ recent case, its bruised ego’s and forever tarnished reputations, the bravery of the few brings us all to a better plateau to enjoy animals once the rotten apples are thrown-out.

 

[conniegirl]

Zoo’s were once extremely popular until the poor management of a few and expose’s of abuse lead to the collapse of the whole industry.

Not sure where you are from but there are plenty of zoo’s in the UK that do extremely well and are incredibly well supported. Hardly an industry that has collapsed

 

[Tiddlypom]

Zoo’s were once extremely popular until the poor management of a few and expose’s of abuse lead to the collapse of the whole industry.

Not true at all.

I’m a member of Chester Zoo, which is very well run and does sterling work, like many other UK zoos. Covid is causing it financial hardship, of course, like other attractions, but before that it was on a very strong financial footing.

 

[tallyho!]

Zoo's still need to pull their socks up though according to the Born Free foundation.

FWIW. I don't like zoo's. Wildlife parks, yes but not zoo's.

 

[PurBee]

Not sure where you are from but there are plenty of zoo’s in the UK that do extremely well and are incredibly well supported. Hardly an industry that has collapsed

im talking global zoo industry, not just uk. Sure, there are zoo’s still in operation - those that offer something more than a few metres of concrete holding pens for the animals. But many more have been closed down, than the numbers surviving.

I recall a zoo visit in germany on the insistence of a friend....my god, what a bleak place! The lions had a tubular cage walkway above the zoo as their ’exercise’. The pens were all tiny, the animals shrieking or swaying continuously with psyche shutdown. We were the only visitors. The popularity of zoo’s has dropped right off the radar compared to when i was a kid in the 80’s due to public awareness just not finding incarceration of massive wonderful wild animals appealing or ethical anymore.

Zoo’s took a hit when circuses were in the spotlight. The circus industry has melted into oblivion due to a few bad apples being exposed.
It’s unfortunate as those genuine in the industry lose out too when it all collapses and that’s a great shame. I know of a lion tamer in the US who kept his animals in a massive purpose built dessert wilderness in the U.S and literally all money and time went into their care - they were only caged when on the road - but his career with the top zoo circuits collapsed once animal welfare organisations got their hooks into the industry and exposed the abuse. The good go down with the bad. He tried to redirect his career with an plan to build a tiger/lion wildlife park and have educational group visits, but the cost of the whole proposal was too massive to take on, and financial sponsorship was tried but failed.

Im not saying whole industries should be wiped out due to the small % of abuse. It’s really sad if that happens as i think man’s ability to actually live beside all types of animals and have a rapport with them is something to be celebrated.

If the bad apples could be highlighted and thrown out, and it be known abuse is never tolerated, it should leave animal ‘pleasure/entertainment’ industries as displays of wonder/awe/compassion that they were originally hoped to be all about.

 

[Tiddlypom]

im talking global zoo industry, not just uk

Well, that’s not what you wrote when you said that the ‘whole (zoo) industry’ had collapsed, and seeing as this is a UK based forum...

 

[conniegirl]

im talking global zoo industry, not just uk. Sure, there are zoo’s still in operation - those that offer something more than a few metres of concrete holding pens for the animals. But many more have been closed down, than the numbers surviving.

I recall a zoo visit in germany on the insistence of a friend....my god, what a bleak place! The lions had a tubular cage walkway above the zoo as their ’exercise’. The pens were all tiny, the animals shrieking or swaying continuously with psyche shutdown. We were the only visitors. The popularity of zoo’s has dropped right off the radar compared to when i was a kid in the 80’s due to public awareness just not finding incarceration of massive wonderful wild animals appealing or ethical anymore.

Erm there are still plenty of Zoo's in the UK and Europe, and the popularity of places like Chester Zoo has certainly not dropped off at all. When they reopened after covid you had to book a slot and thier website crashed from the amount of people trying to get slots! enormous amounts of people still flock to zoo's.
2.1 Million people visited chester zoo in 2019, the most in the entire history of the Zoo.

 

[PurBee]

Well, that’s not what you wrote when you said that the ‘whole (zoo) industry’ had collapsed, and seeing as this is a UK based forum...

I also mentioned U.S horse big lick industry regarding animal abuse cases - so when i state ‘whole zoo industry’ im not specifying a country.
The zoo industry globally before animal abuse awareness grew, was absolutely thriving. So my reference to a collapsed industry is the comparison of now to the thriving industry globally before.
Just because Chester Zoo has survived, doesn’t mean the industry as a whole has not altered dramatically, due to animal abuse claims and tighter policies.

There are many non-uk members on this forum, it’s allowed to discuss other countries affairs.

 

[ester]

Altered dramatically is a bit different to ‘collapsed’

 

[PurBee]

Altered dramatically is a bit different to ‘collapsed’

im disinterested in focusing on plunging the rabbit-hole of lexical semantics and would rather hope the point of the post highlighting that animal abuse being reported had lead to a shake-up in various industries, and ultimately saved animal suffering and lives.
This thread title shows there’s still a way to go, but it’s an issue all animal lovers will never give up on.

 

[Rowreach]

It saddens me that people are far more bothered by an already dead/not abused horse than they are by this public display of violence against a living one.

It’s not just racing that needs to get its house in order.

 

[tallyho!]

...

 

[tallyho!]

Erm there are still plenty of Zoo's in the UK and Europe, and the popularity of places like Chester Zoo has certainly not dropped off at all. When they reopened after covid you had to book a slot and thier website crashed from the amount of people trying to get slots! enormous amounts of people still flock to zoo's.
2.1 Million people visited chester zoo in 2019, the most in the entire history of the Zoo.

This isn’t about zoo’s...

This is about horse abuse by intelligible adults.

 

[ester]

Quite like accuracy of the written word myself makes it a whole lot clearer for everyone what people mean then! Never can understand why it is apparently difficult to write what you actually mean.

 

[Surbie]

That footage is horrific. The rider's statement trying to pass off a yellow card and a warning as fair penalties is also appalling. I hope he's lost the ride. Poor bloody horse.

 

[Gingerwitch]

what you and Cortez have shared is just horrific to think this is more common than we realise.

Even if reported, nothing changes? Just shameful..

I think those low pecking order grooms in the industry who witness daily abuse of horses should employ technology and wear small hidden cameras as absolute proof, share with the media, and blow the whole industry wide open...THEN let’s see if these ‘policy authorities’ dare ignore it.

And what is groom supposed to do for a job. They would be un employable once they did that. It needs undercover reporters, but can't imagine any of the publications doing that, they need the advertising income

 

[millikins]

Yes, of course its valid many grooms witness it but fear horrible consequences for their own careers should they report it.

What it takes then are under cover stable-hands that aren’t really with a career in the industry, but easily get a job at a yard as its all mucking out, labour-only type work. They dont care about retribution as they have no interest in the industry really to forge a career in it.
That’s how the expose’s are done on animal abuse establishments, Peta-minded menial workers with the sole aim of capturing footage of abuse. I recall USA big lick industry cases brought about via stable-hand footage of soring, drugging and beating horses.

The other way to prevent profit-hunger animal abuse it is to drain the money out of the sports. Let it be for entertainment only, no prize money. you get 100 quid ‘ticket money’ for the day, for showing up and entertaining the crowd, just like the fee a band playing in a pub gets of an evening.

Too drastic a change for todays industry i know, and there’s many genuine horse lovers in it too who lose out, but sometimes the rug has to be pulled out to prevent the continuous 2% violent abuse cases.

Zoo’s were once extremely popular until the poor management of a few and expose’s of abuse lead to the collapse of the whole industry.

It’s the bad apples which rot the entire cart, so those genuine folk in the industry, if they wish for it to remain should be keen to call-out terrible abuse, despite fear of loss.
They’ll receive support from fellow peers for their courage and eventually, those ‘whistle blowers’ will achieve a glowing reputation, if they fearless face the establishment to put an end to horse industry abuse.
Just like the hho ‘unmentionable place’ recent case, its bruised ego’s and forever tarnished reputations, the bravery of the few brings us all to a better plateau to enjoy animals once the rotten apples are thrown-out.

Sorry but I think this is far too complicated to ever be realistic. A groom has to see abuse, report it to an organisation who may or may not act, who then infiltrate said establishment with an undercover groom who hopefully will be on site with camera ready to roll (all unseen by abuser) when next incident occurs. Really can't see this as a credible scenario.
I think what will have an effect is if the owner of that horse very publicly removes it and states why they have done so. If not perhaps they should also be fined as complicit in animal abuse.

 

[DabDab]

It saddens me that people are far more bothered by an already dead/not abused horse than they are by this public display of violence against a living one.

It’s not just racing that needs to get its house in order.

On what do you base that conclusion?

In cases like this I'm glad there isn't much discussion...there shouldn't be much discussion, because there shouldn't be anyone defending that kind of disgusting behaviour so the whole conversation is going to be pretty one sided.

As it goes I happen to think that elite Showjumping and dressage is a hot mess, with a certain level of rough riding and training that has become normalised, in the same way that the death of young horses has been normalised in racing. And against that backdrop you are far more likely to get the people who take it just a few steps further. It's hard to know what can be done about it though because it is hard to know where the line is - if you train with pressure and release, what is too much pressure? I'll admit that I often struggle with how much pressure to apply in certain situations, and I think most riders do. It's probably why I am not a particularly good competition rider - I struggle to push a horse onto the next level because I feel like I'm asking too much, and end up feeling guilty and just bimbling around hacking for weeks to recover (and I don't even ride with whip or spurs etc.)

It's tricky, sport with animals. There will probably always be a percentage of the people at the top who are there partly because they were willing to push their animals harder than everyone else. I don't know what the answer is to be honest

 

[Rowreach]

On what do you base that conclusion?

In cases like this I'm glad there isn't much discussion...there shouldn't be much discussion, because there shouldn't be anyone defending that kind of disgusting behaviour so the whole conversation is going to be pretty one sided.

As it goes I happen to think that elite Showjumping and dressage is a hot mess, with a certain level of rough riding and training that has become normalised, in the same way that the death of young horses has been normalised in racing. And against that backdrop you are far more likely to get the people who take it just a few steps further. It's hard to know what can be done about it though because it is hard to know where the line is - if you train with pressure and release, what is too much pressure? I'll admit that I often struggle with how much pressure to apply in certain situations, and I think most riders do. It's probably why I am not a particularly good competition rider - I struggle to push a horse onto the next level because I feel like I'm asking too much, and end up feeling guilty and just bimbling around hacking for weeks to recover (and I don't even ride with whip or spurs etc.)

It's tricky, sport with animals. There will probably always be a percentage of the people at the top who are there partly because they were willing to push their animals harder than everyone else. I don't know what the answer is to be honest

Several hundred emotive comments on the GE thread and oh, forty something on this one. Which shows real, blatant abuse of a living animal. Obvious, I would have thought.

 

[DabDab]

Several hundred emotive comments on the GE thread and oh, forty something on this one. Which shows real, blatant abuse of a living animal. Obvious, I would have thought.

Because people talk more about stuff where there is a difference of opinion. I cba with the papers this morning because they are all full with Meghan and Harry nonsense. Does that mean that no wars are happening today? Or that there aren't many things occurring that people genuinely find more terrible and shocking than anything Meghan and Harry had to say? Of course not, it is perfectly normal to be horrified by one thing and yet have much more to say about something comparatively innocuous.

 

[tristar]

two important lessons i have learned, you cant make 3/4 ton of horse do anything it does`nt want to

doing it the long and nice way brings the glory of experience and self esteem to yourself, and gives you a horse who will do for you what he may not do for any other person