Kevin Lemke overuse of the whip

tristar

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On what do you base that conclusion?

In cases like this I'm glad there isn't much discussion...there shouldn't be much discussion, because there shouldn't be anyone defending that kind of disgusting behaviour so the whole conversation is going to be pretty one sided.

As it goes I happen to think that elite Showjumping and dressage is a hot mess, with a certain level of rough riding and training that has become normalised, in the same way that the death of young horses has been normalised in racing. And against that backdrop you are far more likely to get the people who take it just a few steps further. It's hard to know what can be done about it though because it is hard to know where the line is - if you train with pressure and release, what is too much pressure? I'll admit that I often struggle with how much pressure to apply in certain situations, and I think most riders do. It's probably why I am not a particularly good competition rider - I struggle to push a horse onto the next level because I feel like I'm asking too much, and end up feeling guilty and just bimbling around hacking for weeks to recover (and I don't even ride with whip or spurs etc.)

It's tricky, sport with animals. There will probably always be a percentage of the people at the top who are there partly because they were willing to push their animals harder than everyone else. I don't know what the answer is to be honest

you have said the answer, discovered the truth being aware of what you don`t want, the horses tell you when you get it right
 

tristar

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you cant make 3/4 ton of horse want do something it doesn`t want to

doing it the nice way gives the rider self esteem and experience and a horse who will do things for you he may not do for anyone else, and he may do things no one thought he could do

no other feeling like going back to the stable with a happy horse, and being on high for the rest of the day
 

Birker2020

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It's obvious from watching the video that they don't have a good partnership. It's a shame he let anger cloud his judgement and to force the horse to jump the fence at the speed it was going was a recipe that was only going to end in disaster.
 

Birker2020

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This is worse than the Gordon Elliott picture. At least the Irish horse could no longer feel anything.
I'd like to think this SJ rider would be hanging his head in shame but I doubt he will be.
Agree but both cases show total disregard to the horse and a massive load of disrespect.

We've all lost it from time to time but not to that extent thank goodness.
 

Apizz2019

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Agree but both cases show total disregard to the horse and a massive load of disrespect.

We've all lost it from time to time but not to that extent thank goodness.
Agreed!

This reminds me of Bernhard Maier - another 'professional rider' who didn't know when to bow out gracefully.

Dead or alive, these three individuals are prime examples of arrogance and bringing their sport into disrepute.
 

DabDab

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you have said the answer, discovered the truth being aware of what you don`t want, the horses tell you when you get it right
The answer in the wider sport context is what I meant.

Horses don't tell you anything, it's just your (a human's) interpretation of a horse's response, and there are very different interpretations out there.
 

tallyho!

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And what is groom supposed to do for a job. They would be un employable once they did that. It needs undercover reporters, but can't imagine any of the publications doing that, they need the advertising income
Sad but true - this is the blind eye that needs to change. What if the shoe was on the other foot? What if any employee was treated as a risk for exposé? Surely then the standards would improve? If enough people (easy for me to say now, right?) were to tip the regulators, then this fear would be transferred to the perpetrators, not the innocent bystanders.
 

Pippity

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If nothing happens when top-level riders are reported, what hope do we have of changing the behaviour of low-level riders? There's a girl around my way who I've seen 'schooling' her horses - rams them at 1.2m fences with a single pole and no placing line, beats them and yanks the reins when they refuse. The horses are strapped up so tightly that they have bald patches and callouses on their heads. On the ground, I've seen her kick one in the belly when it reared. I know several people have reported her to behaviour to her yard owner, but nothing's been done.
 

PapaverFollis

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The thing about the dead racehorse is that the horse is dead and the guy who is presumably in some part responsible (even if there wasn't any actual wrong doing) apparently finds it funny. There is no "heat of the moment" element to his actions. This horse has been badly done to but does live to fight another day.

I'm not sure you can classify one situation as categorically worse than the other in a long view, although fact remains that the racehorse was unaffected in the moment of the photographed action on account of already being dead.
 

Birker2020

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The thing about the dead racehorse is that the horse is dead and the guy who is presumably in some part responsible (even if there wasn't any actual wrong doing) apparently finds it funny. There is no "heat of the moment" element to his actions. This horse has been badly done to but does live to fight another day.

I'm not sure you can classify one situation as categorically worse than the other in a long view, although fact remains that the racehorse was unaffected in the moment of the photographed action on account of already being dead.
Well maybe I am rather sensitive but i find it incredibly disrespectful.
 

millikins

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two important lessons i have learned, you cant make 3/4 ton of horse do anything it does`nt want to

doing it the long and nice way brings the glory of experience and self esteem to yourself, and gives you a horse who will do for you what he may not do for any other person
I don't know if you can force a horse to jump but the TWH Big Lick shows that you can most certainly make 3/4 ton of horse do things it doesn't want to.
 

tristar

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The answer in the wider sport context is what I meant.

Horses don't tell you anything, it's just your (a human's) interpretation of a horse's response, and there are very different interpretations out there.

horses tell me something every day, i don`t think all good competition riders have to push the horse, but they have great talent and true tact to ask, show, then follow
 

Gingerwitch

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Several hundred emotive comments on the GE thread and oh, forty something on this one. Which shows real, blatant abuse of a living animal. Obvious, I would have thought.
We have had two other hotley debated threads where many posters have been accused of trial by social media and to back off. They have done.
 

Amun

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Horrible 😟 I can't possibly imagine what is happening behind the closed door. And not just for this poor horse
 

Smitty

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It saddens me that people are far more bothered by an already dead/not abused horse than they are by this public display of violence against a living one.

It’s not just racing that needs to get its house in order.
I wonder if it is because abuse of living horses within equestrian sport is sadly a relatively common occurrence, whereas I cannot recall a weirdo having posed on a dead horse for a photo at any time.

There are posts on this thread I cannot bring myself to 'like', ie Cortez's, but so sadly we know things go on behind closed doors and I have myself witnessed things in the ring and on course at BE that I think go way beyond a reprimand, albeit some going back 30 years.

Hopefully all his owners will withdraw their horses and perhaps if yards have nothing to hide, they should be prepared to employ grooms who have "spilled the beans".
 

Gingerwitch

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Why? I’m not being flippant, I honestly don’t understand!
Rusty I am not getting at you, it's just your post under different posters names would have been heckled and accused of bullying him and trial by social media. I was using this post as that example, as to why after 2pretty savage threads of people being called out, for statements such as theses etc why many have chosen not to post on yet another thread where their points would be pulled apart.
We have posters on her who constantly vilify others on some posts, but do exactly the same on other posts but because its them doing it they never get called out.
They seem to forget is they are as much the social m3dua bully as the ones they are calling out, if not more so. As bizzare as it may seem
The posters on this forum get much more adversely affected by other posters, as to some this is there life at the moment. I have seen some horrid pack mentality on here recently and also constant sniping at some posters and they never get left alone. People pulling up all sorts of crap that they said a hundred posts ago on a totally unconnected post. I get into arguments with people and move on. I have only had one big spat with a poster but that was because they broke an rule and divulged contents of a pm. But I still post on there posts and dont take a swipe at them at every occasion.
The same cannot be said for others, and these are usually the most prolific users of the word bully.
 

tristar

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It saddens me that people are far more bothered by an already dead/not abused horse than they are by this public display of violence against a living one.

It’s not just racing that needs to get its house in order.
racing is in trouble with the death and damage done to horses on the racecourse in front all who watch, already its a bit on a knife edge
 
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