Lvrees
Well-Known Member
Prisons in the middle east consist of four walls and a bucket... now tell me our prison service isnt a joke.
Killer serving life 'wants baby'
- Thread starter magic104
- Start date
flying_change
Well-Known Member
If it was an easy one, it wouldnt be in the papers and we wouldnt be talking about it.
jacks_mum
Well-Known Member
the only reason it is in the papers and we are talking bout it is because our prison system is ridiculous and does not punish the people it was set up to punish! I agree totally with Lvrees our prison service is a joke. why should prisoners be entitled to anything other than the very basics needed for survival?
flying_change
Well-Known Member
I'm sure you would agree though that the inmates should be treated humanely ?
Sooty
Well-Known Member
Prison is also meant to be about rehabilitation and reforming people so they can fit back into society. However, in some cases the punishment aspect has actually been abandoned, with more money being spent on food for prisoners than for children in schools and hospital patients. Not relevant, but a consideration.
flying_change
Well-Known Member
And for every demand to make the life in prison tougher (and I dont say there isnt a justification for that), there's a pressure group (eg Howard League) saying the opposite.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
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And often so early into the preganancy (8-10weeks as mentioned) many kits don't give a postive result apparently.
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Pregnancy kits?
And often so early into the preganancy (8-10weeks as mentioned) many kits don't give a postive result apparently.
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Pregnancy kits?
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
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Maybe so there might be a valid reson why he murded someone self defence for instance but you say doesnt everyone deserve a 2nd chance, the person he murded will never get a 2nd chance so why should he
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Two wrongs don't make a right. If it was self-defence then it completely isn't his fault that someone attacked him or whatever. Nobody has said he is a serial killer in which case I'd say its definately not a good idea for him to father a child.
Maybe so there might be a valid reson why he murded someone self defence for instance but you say doesnt everyone deserve a 2nd chance, the person he murded will never get a 2nd chance so why should he
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Two wrongs don't make a right. If it was self-defence then it completely isn't his fault that someone attacked him or whatever. Nobody has said he is a serial killer in which case I'd say its definately not a good idea for him to father a child.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
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Though I can see it would be a long debate, maybe longer than the Hunting bill took).
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Don't be silly...nothing will take up more hours than that beauty of a bill
Though I can see it would be a long debate, maybe longer than the Hunting bill took).
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Don't be silly...nothing will take up more hours than that beauty of a bill
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
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I 4got to add that I thought they should wait to see if their relationship was stable enough for a child. After all how can you have a proper relationship if one of you is in prison? It would help after all as relationships take a lot of working at. Also I might add that prisoners get better health care & education then most citizens (& that is confirmed by more the one prision worker).
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I think relationships are nolonger an issue when children are involved. Nearly 50% of children are born out of wedlock. I could get married, live with my husband for 5 years, have a baby and then divorce after, that would make me another in a long line of single mothers.
I do think they should wait the 2years though.
I 4got to add that I thought they should wait to see if their relationship was stable enough for a child. After all how can you have a proper relationship if one of you is in prison? It would help after all as relationships take a lot of working at. Also I might add that prisoners get better health care & education then most citizens (& that is confirmed by more the one prision worker).
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I think relationships are nolonger an issue when children are involved. Nearly 50% of children are born out of wedlock. I could get married, live with my husband for 5 years, have a baby and then divorce after, that would make me another in a long line of single mothers.
I do think they should wait the 2years though.
flying_change
Well-Known Member
If you kill someone in self-defense, you are more likely to be charged with manslaughter than murder. To make a murder charge stick, the prosecution have to show intent.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
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Flying -change - i don't believe this is a tough one. prison is prison. it is a punishment. the only rights prisoners should have is for a dry bed and atleast one meal a day (and that is more than some people get in the outside world!). they should have no other rights or it is not a punishment. IMO
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I'm surpried how many of you are opposed to this one when so many supported the mass payout to the heroin addicts.
I do think he should be made to wait the 2years BUT given the fact the heroin addicts got their way I think its wrong to allow special treatment for some and not others.
Flying -change - i don't believe this is a tough one. prison is prison. it is a punishment. the only rights prisoners should have is for a dry bed and atleast one meal a day (and that is more than some people get in the outside world!). they should have no other rights or it is not a punishment. IMO
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I'm surpried how many of you are opposed to this one when so many supported the mass payout to the heroin addicts.
I do think he should be made to wait the 2years BUT given the fact the heroin addicts got their way I think its wrong to allow special treatment for some and not others.
flying_change
Well-Known Member
OK, maybe I was being a tad dramatic.....
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
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humanely
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Define that word, everyone has a different stop off point at what is humane and what isn't!
humanely
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Define that word, everyone has a different stop off point at what is humane and what isn't!
jacks_mum
Well-Known Member
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I'm sure you would agree though that the inmates should be treated humanely ?
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yes ofcourse they shoud be treated humanely, i wouldn't say otherwise but the general level of pandering to peoples whims is infuriating. they are there to be punished, not to have babies on the nhs, sue because they have had to go cold turkey etc. i just dont understand how this mans request is even being considered. it is jusy ludicrious in my mind.
I'm sure you would agree though that the inmates should be treated humanely ?
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yes ofcourse they shoud be treated humanely, i wouldn't say otherwise but the general level of pandering to peoples whims is infuriating. they are there to be punished, not to have babies on the nhs, sue because they have had to go cold turkey etc. i just dont understand how this mans request is even being considered. it is jusy ludicrious in my mind.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
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If you kill someone in self-defense, you are more likely to be charged with manslaughter than murder. To make a murder charge stick, the prosecution have to show intent.
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Ok, but it could have been over anything, the bloke could have stolen from him, hit his former wife(if he had one), been having an affair with his wife, it could have been over business, it could have been an argument gone wrong (look at Eastenders) I don't know and I'm certainly not condoning murder BUT different people react in different ways, he's served him time and he's obviously behaved else he wouldn't be coming out in 2 years time.
If you kill someone in self-defense, you are more likely to be charged with manslaughter than murder. To make a murder charge stick, the prosecution have to show intent.
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Ok, but it could have been over anything, the bloke could have stolen from him, hit his former wife(if he had one), been having an affair with his wife, it could have been over business, it could have been an argument gone wrong (look at Eastenders) I don't know and I'm certainly not condoning murder BUT different people react in different ways, he's served him time and he's obviously behaved else he wouldn't be coming out in 2 years time.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
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OK, maybe I was being a tad dramatic.....
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Understatement
OK, maybe I was being a tad dramatic.....
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Understatement
flying_change
Well-Known Member
That's exactly where my argument was going to go to.....
flying_change
Well-Known Member
You've never seen me being *really* dramatic !
flying_change
Well-Known Member
Agreed, but double-guessing what the bloke did and why isnt really important when discussing the baby issue. All one can assume is that he was correctly convicted and that his release is also equally correct.
jacks_mum
Well-Known Member
Severnmiles - i didn't support that - in my book they should have grateful that they were off the drugs!!
flying_change
Well-Known Member
"yes ofcourse they shoud be treated humanely, i wouldn't say otherwise but the general level of pandering to peoples whims is infuriating. "
Should they be given good food or bad food ?
If they are sick, should they be given medical attention ? Should this attention be as good as for anyone else, or should it be substandard ?
"they are there to be punished"
No, being there and the loss of personal freedom is the punishment.
"not to have babies on the nhs"
but if a woman went into prison already pregnant, she should be allowed to have the baby on the NHS ?
"sue because they have had to go cold turkey etc."
Should they be able to sue if the prison officers beat them up ?
"i just dont understand how this mans request is even being considered. it is jusy ludicrious in my mind"
TBH, I've been playing devils advocate and I much agree with this last statement. I *do* think there is a 'human rights of prisoners' simply because it's never been adequatly defined.
My personal judgment is that he *is* entitled to be a father, but the prison service is not obliged to help him become one.
RS
Should they be given good food or bad food ?
If they are sick, should they be given medical attention ? Should this attention be as good as for anyone else, or should it be substandard ?
"they are there to be punished"
No, being there and the loss of personal freedom is the punishment.
"not to have babies on the nhs"
but if a woman went into prison already pregnant, she should be allowed to have the baby on the NHS ?
"sue because they have had to go cold turkey etc."
Should they be able to sue if the prison officers beat them up ?
"i just dont understand how this mans request is even being considered. it is jusy ludicrious in my mind"
TBH, I've been playing devils advocate and I much agree with this last statement. I *do* think there is a 'human rights of prisoners' simply because it's never been adequatly defined.
My personal judgment is that he *is* entitled to be a father, but the prison service is not obliged to help him become one.
RS
jacks_mum
Well-Known Member
"My personal judgment is that he *is* entitled to be a father, but the prison service is not obliged to help him become one."
can't disagree with that - can we stop with the degrees of 'human rights' now? It'ssomething I don't think will ever be agreed upon!! Besides I gotta go now....
can't disagree with that - can we stop with the degrees of 'human rights' now? It'ssomething I don't think will ever be agreed upon!! Besides I gotta go now....
flying_change
Well-Known Member
"can we stop with the degrees of 'human rights' now?"
Oh pooh, I was just getting into my stride on that one...
"It'ssomething I don't think will ever be agreed upon!! "
True. That's why these issues arent simple.
OK, OK, I wont start that again.....
Oh pooh, I was just getting into my stride on that one...
"It'ssomething I don't think will ever be agreed upon!! "
True. That's why these issues arent simple.
OK, OK, I wont start that again.....
tremorfa
Well-Known Member
I get so angry when these prisoners complain of their "Human Rights" being eroded. This man took a life. The definition of murder is "The killing of a human being by a human being with malice aforethought, either express or implied" This means the prosecution proved that he intended to kill his victim. End of. I also get angry at people thinking that a child is some sort of designer asset they can just order up at will. NO he should not be allowed to father a child whilst in prison. Let him wait.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
I know...lets vote to abolish Human Rights...
tremorfa
Well-Known Member
No, just the European Bill. We have survived very well with just Habeas Corpus in this country for hundreds of years. This bill is being manipulated by cynical, greedy barristers who know a good con when they see one.
anniedoherty
Well-Known Member
What a ridulous situation. If only we had a choice about how the taxes we pay were spent. I would like mine to go towards hospitals, medical research, helping the elderly and disabled etc, etc. No way would I, or most other people, want our tax money to go towards helping convicted prisoners - whatever they have done - to become fathers. Let him wait until he is freed and I'm sure there will be plenty of women out there whom he can try and impregnate!
Onyxia
Well-Known Member
TBH,main issue for me is that(asuming she gets pregnant) child will spend years with little/no acess to its father and an aging mother.By the time the child is an adult she will be nearly 70 FFS.
Dispite what he is convicted for he might turn out to be a good father- plenty of respectable people out there who are very bad parents.
Just looks like no-one has thought about how a child would feel about this situation.
Dispite what he is convicted for he might turn out to be a good father- plenty of respectable people out there who are very bad parents.
Just looks like no-one has thought about how a child would feel about this situation.
Onyxia
Well-Known Member
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as far as I am concerned, when you are sent to prison you lose your 'human rights'.
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You should do!
Being part of a wealthy society gives you a lot of privaledges.If you break the laws of that society you should lose those privaledges untill your sentence is over.
It completly baffles me that anyone would think prisoners have any right to vote- why the hell should people with no respect for the law be alowed to vote on who will be making them??
as far as I am concerned, when you are sent to prison you lose your 'human rights'.
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You should do!
Being part of a wealthy society gives you a lot of privaledges.If you break the laws of that society you should lose those privaledges untill your sentence is over.
It completly baffles me that anyone would think prisoners have any right to vote- why the hell should people with no respect for the law be alowed to vote on who will be making them??