Kissing Spines Operation, would you do it again?

ycbm

ycbm

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Prompted by a comment by Goldenstar on another thread echoing something that's been troubling me lately. Have you put a horse through kissing spines surgery?

Which type?

Would you do it again, and if not why not ?


I've had a ligament snip done.

I would not use that operation again, I believe it works mainly by denerving and I am not convinced that long term results are working out well. I'm also suspicious that the operation did something to cause him to turn from a horse who often gave himself small wounds banging his head, into a horse who gave himself two major skull traumas, which resulted in his death after six months. I have heard of one other which developed fits immediately after the operation, and mine was fitting when he was put down.

A friend did one on a horse which also had fetlocks arthritis on the back legs. That has, predictably, been a compete waste of money and the horse is now a brood mare (I know!!).

I'm not sure about whether I would do a process removal or not, hence this thread. I've not got a case at the moment, but who knows, it's pretty common. I know Wagtail had a failed one I'm hoping she'll remind us about.
 
It would have to be a very good horse with no other complicating factors for me to put them through the full process removal. I've had one I decided not to operate on and retire, but have known a handful have the op. They all returned to work but never showed the same performance and all had modified expectations.
 
Probably not. I had one with ten processes touching. Had standing op to remove five. Although his stride looked a little better after the op, it didn't cure his issues and he remained unrideable. It was a hell of a journey and long rehab and it just didn't work. However, I have a friend who had a combination of the ligament snip and a shaving of the processes and her horse is doing really well so far and is progressing both dressage and low level jumping. But I don't think I have the heart for it anymore. If my current mare (who I am having difficulties with) ever turned out to have it, then I am very unlikely to take it further with her.
 
In terms of the performance of the horse yes it was a good result .Although the horse is not in full work now because of complications from when he broke a rib in the field he returned to work after the procedure he jumps well , he's an amazing jumper his flat work is completely different and his persistent tongue over the bit issue is pretty well resolved and he has the top line of a dressage horse when he was a bit of a skinned rabbit before .
In terms of what the procedure put the horse through I am not convinced I would rush to do it again the horse did suffer a lot of pain post OP he needed a lot of careful nursing he's chestnut and very reactive to pain .
I certainly would not do it with a young untried horse it would not make financial sense .
I would not do it where weak conformation played a part or where the horse was showing severe behavioural issues my horse was more a lack of performance type thing .
 
I do wonder whether this is one of those examples where advances in medical science and treatment means these horses are going through more vet processes but it's not necessarily the best thing for them overall. So many mixed outcomes.

That said, mine continues to do well following just one round of steroids and not showing any signs of back pain 3 years later, which is awesome, but does have other complications so has a guarded prognosis generally. If I'm honest although she's happy and I can afford it, I'm not sure it was all worth it as I doubt she'll ever be back to her old self work wise.
 
My view and it's only my view just the way I see it .
The more expensive training and experiance a horse has the more likely I am to go to distance to put it right .
Taking KS as an example no point in my view in putting a broncing just ridden away 4 yo through surgery when you don't have any idea what's going to come out the other side , but spending six months on ground work to develop the horse then yes I would probably do that .this is where diagnostics are so good now a days .
Take Fatty as another example he got mildly sprained suspensory in Feb he's in walking exercise he has already a dodgy stifle where he was kicked three years ago and mild arthritis in his hocks would I be spending months walking a just broken 4yo with arthritis a dodgy stifle and a sprained suspensory no I would not because I would know the long term prognosis would be bad .
But Fattys been here a long time he's a epic horse and all that graft and money is worth it for him , I won't go on for ever though if I think he's sick of it I will stop .
 
Goldenstar said:
The more expensive training and experiance a horse has the more likely I am to go to distance to put it right .
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at this point in my horsey life I've not had a KS horse, but as a general point this is my way of thinking too ^^

It's what made me throw everything at Millie (several times!) she's been just the most amazing horse I could ever ask for and still getting better even at 20 - I don't think I'd have done the same for an unproven horse.
 
I had one operated on many years ago....process removal. Long rehab was apparently successful, went back to eventing at Intermediate level, but within 18mths of op, his front feet couldn't cope with it ( navicular syndrome as it would now be called).

In retrospect, the front feet warning signs were there, and I now strongly believe that many, if not most, cases of KS are secondary to issues elsewhere that cause a change in posture/balance. Particularly front feet/sacroiliac/stifles/hocks/PSD.

So would I do it again.....No.
 
I know two ex-racehorses who have had KS operations. One definitely had the ligament snip, and I think the other did too. Both are now back in full work and have been for years, so having seen how successful it was for them, I would probably be willing to explore surgery if one of mine ever developed KS.
 
That is really interesting quizzie given the secondary change in posture thought, perhaps backed up by the reports of improvement on those who work on the horses way of going in hand etc only. I also think it has to be complicated by not knowing how many are symptomless but would xray with KS. If I had one I suspect it would be one of those things I tried to treat conservatively.
 
JJS said:
I know two ex-racehorses who have had KS operations. One definitely had the ligament snip, and I think the other did too. Both are now back in full work and have been for years, so having seen how successful it was for them, I would probably be willing to explore surgery if one of mine ever developed KS.
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Similar experience. I know one at work that had surgery a good 2/3 years ago and has done very well since. He's in full training, behaving (used to rear) and racing with reasonable success.
I chose not to operate on my own ks horse a few years before as the only stories I'd heard were fairly negative. My horse was only mildly effected and due to other issues I chose to retire instead. If my current riding horse got it and I was able to afford to operate I would having seen with my own eyes the horse at work come good.
However obviously each situation is a little different.
 
ester said:
That is really interesting quizzie given the secondary change in posture thought, perhaps backed up by the reports of improvement on those who work on the horses way of going in hand etc only. I also think it has to be complicated by not knowing how many are symptomless but would xray with KS. If I had one I suspect it would be one of those things I tried to treat conservatively.
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I think it's pretty well established. The mare I just retired, primarily due to hind gastrocnemius tendon (that I'm pretty sure is completely unrelated to KS) also showed 2 overlapping spine on workup.

In hindsight the signs were there, generally held some mild tension over back and training the changes was tricky due to straightness. Correct work kept things ticking over and manageable but when she had maternity leave, muscle tone went and the issues appeared.

She had known mild coffin joint arthritis that was managed.

The diagnosis came from a practice that are one of the leaders in KS surgery.
They quoted me 70% success for return to work if the horse had no ther orthopaedic conditions. This reduced to 40% for horses with other issues. I was told that the KS was almost certain to have arisen secondary to the front feet due to posture changes.
Alas surgery wasn't ever an option, the tendon would have prevented the rehab
 
Ah yes I hadn't thought about your mare, it isn't something I have ever had to give much consideration too, I guess I am thinking also of what happens if someone has an ulcer horse, people say it must be in pain, KS are found but perhaps that shouldn't be the end of the road for investigations.
 
ycbm said:
I've had a ligament snip done.

I would not use that operation again, I believe it works mainly by denerving and I am not convinced that long term results are working out well.
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This exactly. Had one have the ligament snip done. I don't believe it worked at all, intact I actually think it's caused problems as horse now occasionally shakes hind limbs on backing up and stifles lock which never occurred prior.
On going back to vets they blocked back after ligament snip and there was improvement when ridden so had not sorted problem. They then suggested full surgery which I declined and now it is managed with daily correct work and regular physio. Not back to level horse was working at before but rideable.
I would never do the ligament snip again. It would depend on the horse, severity and number of processes involved for full surgery
 
ester said:
Ah yes I hadn't thought about your mare, it isn't something I have ever had to give much consideration too, I guess I am thinking also of what happens if someone has an ulcer horse, people say it must be in pain, KS are found but perhaps that shouldn't be the end of the road for investigations.
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Reputable vets won't operate for kissing spines without blocking out the back and proving that is the full problem and clearing ulcers. It's normal for KS to be present with ulcers and hock, sacroiliac and/or PSD.
 
subtle bilateral lameness in front though? I am aware of all the hind end stuff just hadn't considered anything in front.
 
ester said:
subtle bilateral lameness in front though? I am aware of all the hind end stuff just hadn't considered anything in front.
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Definitely. How many horses that are marginally bilaterally lame have owners who swear they have a sound horse but it's got a sore back and the physio/saddle fitter etc etc are coming to see it. I hate to say it but there would be an element of die-hard barefooters in that camp too, really subtle stuff but over time it has an impact (caveat time!! Yes I know it applies to shod horses too)
 
LOL should know I at least am not that precious, it is safer well away from the die hards :D, the closest I get is the aghastness on the farrier pages of what gets posted ;).
I guess I just wasn't aware if prior to suggesting operating vets say shall we just block the front end to check even if nothng is obvious/noted by the owner.
 
ycbm said:
Reputable vets won't operate for kissing spines without blocking out the back and proving that is the full problem and clearing ulcers. It's normal for KS to be present with ulcers and hock, sacroiliac and/or PSD.
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I don't think blocking the back would have added anything into the mix with my horse the X-rays where awful .
And what could we have done the only symptom we had was my feeling that his tendency to run out when faced with a large skinny on a left turn was abnormal and his leg yields where not as expressive I would have expected .
I completely started at the beginning after the Operation and restarted his training from first principles, he did so well , which makes the whole broken rib thing so maddening .
 
Goldenstar said:
I don't think blocking the back would have added anything into the mix with my horse the X-rays where awful .
And what could we have done the only symptom we had was my feeling that his tendency to run out when faced with a large skinny on a left turn was abnormal and his leg yields where not as expressive I would have expected .
I completely started at the beginning after the Operation and restarted his training from first principles, he did so well , which makes the whole broken rib thing so maddening .
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I felt so sorry for you during that episode GS. I'm sorry he hasn't completely recovered.

My x rays were also definitive, so tightly packed, obviously from birth, that no amount of physio could possibly have sorted them. The jabs produced a complete miracle. They lasted about four days!
 
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Honestly? Would I allow someone to remove one of my spinal processes? No. So there's no way on this earth I would put one of my beloved horses through it.
 
ycbm said:
I felt so sorry for you during that episode GS. I'm sorry he hasn't completely recovered.

My x rays were also definitive, so tightly packed, obviously from birth, that no amount of physio could possibly have sorted them. The jabs produced a complete miracle. They lasted about four days!
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Thanks it's been hard to accept we won't get an answer the rib is healed my guts tell me he has something going on in rear of his off side .hes had numerous flexions etc done .
I was looking at him today ( he had a bit of a pain attack yesterday after galloping around the field like a lunatic )wondering if I ought get a referring vet who has never seen him work him up one last throw of the dice but i would have to allow 2k and I have spent so much .
ATM in light work hacking mainly in walk lunging and light schooling he's fine really good I cantered him at the weekend to show someone some changes and he felt great .
I can't turn him away completely because I need to keep that top line in good .condition
 
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