Kissing spines

[Last chance]

Advive pls and feedback needed. Bought a horse 5 months ago, advertised as safe mother daughter share, nothing phases her , easy to box , shoe and clip etc. Tried horse at sellers yard, 5 stage vetting done and passed. Took time getting to know horse before asking more of her, lessons, competing. To get to the point, behaviour started to get worse the more that was asked of horse, my instructor didn't know whether just behavioural but had feeling that something else going on. Took to equine vet, scanned ovaries, all ok, then xrayed. Impingement of two dorsal spines processes, spacing narrowerer than others but not touching fully, behind saddle area. Advised careful management to see if improves . Devastated . Anybody else had something similar and awaiting legal advice after this time to see if any comeback with seller who isca horse dealer as behaviour is a big factor in all this.

 

[Red-1]

I am sorry that your new horse has not been happy and healthy. However, after 5 months and having passed your test rides and a vet inspection, then being OK at home for some time, I doubt you would have any comeback on a private seller.

 

[Last chance]

I am sorry that your new horse has not been happy and healthy. However, after 5 months and having passed your test rides and a vet inspection, then being OK at home for some time, I doubt you would have any comeback on a private seller.[/QUOTEYes ]

 

[Last chance]

Yes Red Nose, this is what I am thinking, tho wasn't a private seller, it was a dealer. It's the behaviour side I am worried about, if it doesn't improve cos main reason of buying was the reason she was safe. Jus before I bought new horse, I had to retire my old horse at 19, after having him 10 years. Suppose I am jus unlucky but really dont want two retired horses knowing the fact, I cant sell her.

 

[Red-1]

Ah, a dealer may be different. I thought "isca dealer" was isn't a dealer.

The first thing I would do is ask the vet who vetted if they still have the blood sample to test, as I think they keep them for 6 months.

Other than that yes, I would go ahead with legal advice.

 

[Last chance]

Red nose, got straight onto vets, they keep bloods for 3 months only, tho I thought as well it might have been six. Thanks for your reply.

 

[gunnergundog]

After finding the narrower spaces, did your vet nerve block and did you then ride and see a difference in behaviour? I ask, as I had a horse that had similar T14/15 but it was just how he was and it gave him no pain whatsoever. His issues were elsewhere.

 

[ycbm]

It doesn't actually sound to me as if you have any evidence that the close processes on x ray are what is causing the issue. What you describe, two a bit close, is nothing out of the ordinary on many back x rays.

Was the close area nerve blocked to prove they were the issue? If not, then I think that they should be, and in any case they are often secondary to hock or PSD issues which need fixing as well if there are any. Were the hocks x rayed or PSD scanned for?

In a horse you've had this length of time, this could be another issue altogether. Feeding, ulcers, turnout, saddle ... Have all those been considered?

I'm sorry you are having these issues with a new horse, it's bad enough when they come on later.

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[Last chance]

After finding the narrower spaces, did your vet nerve block and did you then ride and see a difference in behaviour? I ask, as I had a horse that had similar T14/15 but it was just how he was and it gave him no pain whatsoever. His issues were elsewhere.

 

[Last chance]

Hi. No he didn't nerve block as yet, he wants me to try management first, lunging in German string first to encourage long and low for 10/15 mins before each time I ride plus riding in a forward open stride and has also put her a course of regumate to see if behaviour alters as he think it's both behavioural and pain. It was really only when my instructor had her for a short time the behaviour really became a problem, but they were riding in a collective frame and for considerably longer than I would ride. Have to try management for 6/8 weeks to see if any difference then possibility of injecting as next course of action.

 

[Last chance]

It doesn't actually sound to me as if you have any evidence that the close processes on x ray are what is causing the issue. What you describe, two a bit close, is nothing out of the ordinary on many back x rays.

Was the close area nerve blocked to prove they were the issue? If not, then I think that they should be, and in any case they are often secondary to hock or PSD issues which need fixing as well if there are any. Were the hocks x rayed or PSD scanned for?

In a horse you've had this length of time, this could be another issue altogether. Feeding, ulcers, turnout, saddle ... Have all those been considered?

I'm sorry you are having these issues with a new horse, it's bad enough when they come on later.

.

Thanks. No nerve block done as yet nor scan for PSD. Feeding, saddle all ok. I did mention ulcers but at present hes running thro process of elimination. I been given management schedule to follow plus a course of regumate as initially we weren't sure if it was purely behavioural. Had ovaries scanned but found to be ok but vet said he would still try the regumate. Since owning she has all regular checkups and physio had more or less given clean bill of health apart from minor tightness in the hamstring, one side worse than other 4weeks ago.

 

[ycbm]

The first rule of diagnosis is do one thing at a time, otherwise you'll never know what caused the result. The second is eliminate the common and easy to diagnose, which is stomach ulcers.

I would stop the regumate, especially as its winter and is much less likely to change anything, while you try the rehab. But I wouldnt be rehabbing at all until a nerve block had shown some change in reactivity.

You really have no idea at the moment what this horse's issue is. Two close but not touching processes behind the saddle area are certainly not enough to account for it without further investigation.

I suspect that your vet may be convinced that the problems are all behavioural and has given you a rehab plan and regumate as placebos hoping this will restore your own confidence and sort the issue out.

Meanwhile, if the horse has hock or PSD or ulcer issues it's going undiagnosed and untreated.

Is your vet an equine specialist?

.

 

[ycbm]

You say the feed is OK. Is the horse fed exactly what the dealer fed it? If not, is it fed alfalfa when it hasn't been before? If it is, then I would remove that first, and scope for ulcers, before trying anything else.

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[Melody Grey]

I agree with all that has been said above re: needing to eliminate one potential issue at a time. Regumate would be a the bottom of my list given the time of year.

As far as comeback on a dealer is concerned, Obviously seek legal advice but personally, I’d be amazed if this could happen given the timescale since purchase.

if you’re thinking the horse was doped, the lack of bloods now will make this impossible to prove. The only avenue I can see is if the dealer has had the horse injected with steroids and deliberately attempted to hide that from you. Otherwise, I’m afraid I can’t see what claim you can have?

 

[teddypops]

Red nose, got straight onto vets, they keep bloods for 3 months only, tho I thought as well it might have been six. Thanks for your reply.

Vetting bloods are kept for 6 months

 

[Last chance]

I agree with all that has been said above re: needing to eliminate one potential issue at a time. Regumate would be a the bottom of my list given the time of year.

As far as comeback on a dealer is concerned, Obviously seek legal advice but personally, I’d be amazed if this could happen given the timescale since purchase.

if you’re thinking the horse was doped, the lack of bloods now will make this impossible to prove. The only avenue I can see is if the dealer has had the horse injected with steroids and deliberately attempted to hide that from you. Otherwise, I’m afraid I can’t see what claim you can have?

Yes that's what I thought, but just wanted others opinion, who maybe have had similar issues in past. I really dont think horse was doped unless I am being completely naive, thecdealer seemed very honest and open.. he only had horse a short time before being advertised ,think I just wanted some sort of confirmation of what my own thoughts were. Surprised to here your and otherscthoughts on use of regumate as vet I used is highly respected equine vet with many years experience.

 

[be positive]

The first rule of diagnosis is do one thing at a time, otherwise you'll never know what caused the result. The second is eliminate the common and easy to diagnose, which is stomach ulcers.

I would stop the regumate, especially as its winter and is much less likely to change anything, while you try the rehab. But I wouldnt be rehabbing at all until a nerve block had shown some change in reactivity.

You really have no idea at the moment what this horse's issue is. Two close but not touching processes behind the saddle area are certainly not enough to account for it without further investigation.

I suspect that your vet may be convinced that the problems are all behavioural and has given you a rehab plan and regumate as placebos hoping this will restore your own confidence and sort the issue out.

Meanwhile, if the horse has hock or PSD or ulcer issues it's going undiagnosed and untreated.

Is your vet an equine specialist?

.

I agree with all of this as we are going through similar with one here, she has minor KS which the first vet wanted to treat possibly with an op, the specialist who saw her picked up a very slight lameness behind, almost impossible to see until she was nerve blocked and moved better, she has had the hocks injected as the first step, we have seen an improvement and are treating one thing at a time although she is rehabbing with an emphasis on helping the KS which is probably secondary to the slight hock pain.
Her symptoms could easily be considered behavioural, ulcers may be there as a secondary issue but there is no point in doing everything in one go as it will be impossible to prove which is the primary problem that needs to be kept on top of in the future, it may be a long road ahead, we have also taken her front shoes off and have seen her become more comfortable but that was not on veterinary advice, they have not actually objected but did not think it would be helpful, the horse seems to think otherwise .

 

[Melody Grey]

Yes that's what I thought, but just wanted others opinion, who maybe have had similar issues in past. I really dont think horse was doped unless I am being completely naive, thecdealer seemed very honest and open.. he only had horse a short time before being advertised ,think I just wanted some sort of confirmation of what my own thoughts were. Surprised to here your and otherscthoughts on use of regumate as vet I used is highly respected equine vet with many years experience.

Regumate could well be your answer, but from my experience (search my previous posts re:KS and related issues) there are more obvious Explanations to the pain based behaviour you are describing, so hormonal issues wouldn’t be where I’d look first in winter unless your mare is very obviously still cycling.

I have an experience based skepticism of some veterinary practices- prescribing expensive Regumate they can supplybeing one of them. Starting off multiple lines of expensive investigation before conclusively ruling out others is another.

 

[Last chance]

I agree with all of this as we are going through similar with one here, she has minor KS which the first vet wanted to treat possibly with an op, the specialist who saw her picked up a very slight lameness behind, almost impossible to see until she was nerve blocked and moved better, she has had the hocks injected as the first step, we have seen an improvement and are treating one thing at a time although she is rehabbing with an emphasis on helping the KS which is probably secondary to the slight hock pain.
Her symptoms could easily be considered behavioural, ulcers may be there as a secondary issue but there is no point in doing everything in one go as it will be impossible to prove which is the primary problem that needs to be kept on top of in the future, it may be a long road ahead, we have also taken her front shoes off and have seen her become more comfortable but that was not on veterinary advice, they have not actually objected but did not think it would be helpful, the horse seems to think otherwise .

Many thanks. First thing vet did was fexion tests, trot ups and lunging firstly on hard ground , then soft surfaces. Passed everyone of them. Like everyone said, think it will be long process of elimination and probably like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Just have to think positively and hope for the best.

 

[be positive]

Many thanks. First thing vet did was fexion tests, trot ups and lunging firstly on hard ground , then soft surfaces. Passed everyone of them. Like everyone said, think it will be long process of elimination and probably like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Just have to think positively and hope for the best.

So did ours and found nothing other than some back pain, it was the specialist that saw a very slight hind lameness, it was not seen by anyone else, I think there were 4 vets in total watching and only the one could really see it, when nerve blocked she moved with more spring rather than looking sound as she didn't look lame in the first place, xrays showed no changes but she has responded well to the injections so he was obviously right and will only treat the KS if she needs it later on, he would have wanted to nerve block the KS if she had not responded to blocking the hock and this will be done if and when we need to treat them, blocking then working up will show whether they are causing pain, I would want that done before any treatment as a bute trial is not usually effective and will not be definitive, I assume you have done one already?

 

[tallyho!]

If you are facing spinal/skeletal issues, I have found Sharon May-Davies' page/site very useful.

 

[Last chance]

So did ours and found nothing other than some back pain, it was the specialist that saw a very slight hind lameness, it was not seen by anyone else, I think there were 4 vets in total watching and only the one could really see it, when nerve blocked she moved with more spring rather than looking sound as she didn't look lame in the first place, xrays showed no changes but she has responded well to the injections so he was obviously right and will only treat the KS if she needs it later on, he would have wanted to nerve block the KS if she had not responded to blocking the hock and this will be done if and when we need to treat them, blocking then working up will show whether they are causing pain, I would want that done before any treatment as a bute trial is not usually effective and will not be definitive, I assume you have done one already?

Thanks. No blocking has been done on hocks etc, this wasn't even mentioned. The escalating of the bad behaviour only came to a head when my instructor had her on schooling livery and it seemed the more she was asked to collect the worse it became, she had been the best in terms of her behaviour with me and I would be the least experienced in terms of asking for collection etc. The other person who rode horse occasionally was my daughter.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks. No blocking has been done on hocks etc, this wasn't even mentioned. The escalating of the bad behaviour only came to a head when my instructor had her on schooling livery and it seemed the more she was asked to collect the worse it became, she had been the best in terms of her behaviour with me and I would be the least experienced in terms of asking for collection etc. The other person who rode horse occasionally was my daughter.

This screams hocks to me. Bilateral hock lameness often doesn't show up until one is blocked out.

I would be considering a different vet if I were you, I think yours is missing some very basic procedures.


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[[131452]]

What is the behaviour you're worried about? And how old is the horse?

 

[seelig]

So sorry to hear about your horse, when we had this problem I was told by an equine solicitor you have 6 months to send the horse back to the dealer under ( the horse is not fit for the purpose you brought it for ) I hope this is some help.

 

[Last chance]

So sorry to hear about your horse, when we had this problem I was told by an equine solicitor you have 6 months to send the horse back to the dealer under ( the horse is not fit for the purpose you brought it for ) I hope this is some help.

Many thanks. I am currently awaiting advice from BHS legal helpline regarding this, although most replies dont think this will be the case as when tried was satisfactory and passed vetting, it's only when workload increases and horse was being asked for more collection that firstly behaviour went drastically downhill and then we began to suspect something was amiss and decided on taking to vet.

 

[Marmaduke]

Dont know if it helps. I have had similar experience with a horse I have taken on (was going to be PTS). Lovely natured horse but was nappy hacking and schooling (would do little bucks when he had had enough). I knew he had spavins when I took him on but xrays showed little change in 3 yrs. Behaviour didnt change so had hocks injected. Huge improvement but still unhappy. On my request got him scoped and back xrayed. Discovered deep glandular ulcers and two processess behind saddle close but not touching. Treated ulcers for 3 months with gastrogard and sulcrafate. Not looked back. Loves his jumping. Stiffer on one rein and hock injections wear off after 4 months, but no repeat of behavioural issues, except if on him for a long time (2 hours) and he needs a wee. Would definitely get hocks checked and scope for ulcers as others have advised, my vet has advised that a lot of bad backs are secondary to hind limb issues. I have just gone 8 months before injecting again, rideable but was starting to struggle but no bucking. Not sure if the close processes cause a problem or not but if you get them feeling better they will try their hearts out for you. Good Luck.

 

[Last chance]

What is the behaviour you're worried about? And how old is the horse?

Dont know if it helps. I have had similar experience with a horse I have taken on (was going to be PTS). Lovely natured horse but was nappy hacking and schooling (would do little bucks when he had had enough). I knew he had spavins when I took him on but xrays showed little change in 3 yrs. Behaviour didnt change so had hocks injected. Huge improvement but still unhappy. On my request got him scoped and back xrayed. Discovered deep glandular ulcers and two processess behind saddle close but not touching. Treated ulcers for 3 months with gastrogard and sulcrafate. Not looked back. Loves his jumping. Stiffer on one rein and hock injections wear off after 4 months, but no repeat of behavioural issues, except if on him for a long time (2 hours) and he needs a wee. Would definitely get hocks checked and scope for ulcers as others have advised, my vet has advised that a lot of bad backs are secondary to hind limb issues. I have just gone 8 months before injecting again, rideable but was starting to struggle but no bucking. Not sure if the close processes cause a problem or not but if you get them feeling better they will try their hearts out for you. Good Luck.

Thanks, does sound quite similar, napping is the major issue. Could nap when first on, then could hack out ok and then suddenly plants feet on way home. Gives me some hope we can maybe turn this around.

 

[BethH]

My horse had KS as a youngster, was operated on as a 6yr old and is now 21 and still in work. I believe from years of experience, that KS does make them feel vunerable and as they don't feel 100%, the behavioural stuff flares up. Mine was very similar to you, very nappy and panicky and still can be if not feeling confident. I would go out on a hack and he'd be a perfect gent and then if he had to walk down a short sharp hill 45mins in, he would panic and flare up.

I felt the op to be the only option to fully resolve, along with a slow but steady correct rehab and I'm not keen on the ligament snip as I know some of the horses improve for a couple of years and then break down again. But for many horses, if you are schooling properly and working long and low you can strengthen them enough palliatively to cope. I think it sometimes shows up when they lose their fitness as the muscle holds it all together and then when you try to build them up again it flares up, hence the behaviour when asking more from her as she probably lost fitness after being sold by her previous owner and found it difficult when you asked her to work correctly. Mine came to light after 2 years of really challenging behaviour, he a nightmare at 4, got fit as a 4-5yr old and was fine and then didn't do much whilst I was pregnant and flared up big time once I started to ride again as a 6yr old, then it was diagnosed as the behaviour was impossible to ignore.

My horse is fabulous with his groundwork and ridden in the school, he is great to hack in company and is a thoroughly nice person, but he has learned a few quirks when trying to run from pain as a youngster, so imho, careful, clear handling and groundwork training was vital and empathetic riding goes a long way. A good instructor of the intelligent horsmanship type might be useful for you, I'm not sure where you are based but they train with a good understanding of horse behaviour and so can adjust to find a way to make it work.

Good luck, I hope you get to the bottom of it so that you can enjoy your horse. Oh and by the way, spavins are often secondary to KS and mine passed a 5 star vetting, I also had a good instructor both ride and give me a lesson on him before purchase and he was a poppet, it was only after the work was upped that he couldn't cope with the request!

 

[Last chance]

My horse had KS as a youngster, was operated on as a 6yr old and is now 21 and still in work. I believe from years of experience, that KS does make them feel vunerable and as they don't feel 100%, the behavioural stuff flares up. Mine was very similar to you, very nappy and panicky and still can be if not feeling confident. I would go out on a hack and he'd be a perfect gent and then if he had to walk down a short sharp hill 45mins in, he would panic and flare up.

I felt the op to be the only option to fully resolve, along with a slow but steady correct rehab and I'm not keen on the ligament snip as I know some of the horses improve for a couple of years and then break down again. But for many horses, if you are schooling properly and working long and low you can strengthen them enough palliatively to cope. I think it sometimes shows up when they lose their fitness as the muscle holds it all together and then when you try to build them up again it flares up, hence the behaviour when asking more from her as she probably lost fitness after being sold by her previous owner and found it difficult when you asked her to work correctly. Mine came to light after 2 years of really challenging behaviour, he a nightmare at 4, got fit as a 4-5yr old and was fine and then didn't do much whilst I was pregnant and flared up big time once I started to ride again as a 6yr old, then it was diagnosed as the behaviour was impossible to ignore.

My horse is fabulous with his groundwork and ridden in the school, he is great to hack in company and is a thoroughly nice person, but he has learned a few quirks when trying to run from pain as a youngster, so imho, careful, clear handling and groundwork training was vital and empathetic riding goes a long way. A good instructor of the intelligent horsmanship type might be useful for you, I'm not sure where you are based but they train with a good understanding of horse behaviour and so can adjust to find a way to make it work.

Good luck, I hope you get to the bottom of it so that you can enjoy your horse. Oh and by the way, spavins are often secondary to KS and mine passed a 5 star vetting, I also had a good instructor both ride and give me a lesson on him before purchase and he was a poppet, it was only after the work was upped that he couldn't cope with the request!

Thanks for replying. Yes, it's does sound very similar,tho my vet wrote low possibility of KS, the two vertebrae aren't actually touching but spacing closer than all others,He's working on process of elimination, as mentioned in earlier posts, scanned ovaries first, they were all clear, this was no 2 on list, I have her 3rd party insured , jus hadn't got round to vet cover insurance as thought with age didn't need to do straight away, how wrong was I. We have a rehab plan to work on atm but unfortnately from xmas i have been ill so haven't got this started. I had planned on giving her a short break anyway to let her get her head cleared then it was my plan to start this week, unfortunately now not the case and I have no one that can do it for me. My instructor who sent her back to me for rehab is busy with other horses and with her being better with me than anyone else, it's down to me. I wouldn't want anyone else to get hurt not knowing her she will react. My worry is I will not be good enough in dealing with the required rehab and correct way of riding, tho I would do anything to try and help her. I will definitely look into natural horemanship type instructors once I get back to stables. I have family members doing the day to day stuff with her whilst I am ill.