KS and ethics

[Goldenstar]

I have had two horses through this op the last one is my current horse he had three shaved and three snipped his problem was congenital he was born with huge chunky processes ( ID ) my other had an awful back so damaged he had six removed right down .
Both horses did really really well I lost the second one to tumours so never really got the long term benefit I hoped for but he felt awesome before we hit that problem he changed temperament he was happy his flat work was like a different horse and jumping him was a delight ( he was an advanced event horse ) .
Sky also is very different although with him it’s very subtle .
Neither of these horses had outside signs it was not clear cut they had a sore back .
Both horses had no visual clue they had had surgery after four months this is a big thing to consider you could buy a horse that was vetted and it could have had a very big op and has no external clue.
I would do it again but it’s at the limit of what’s acceptable.
I would only do it of I had a good set up for the rehab and people with the right skills and a lot of time post op or I was committed to send them to a experienced rehab yard for a prolonged time .

PS with Sky I did a lot of diagnosis work on the rest of him before he went including looking for PSD a sniff of anything nasty in that direction and I would not have gone ahead .

 

[rextherobber]

Mine is 19 & he had 4 processes reshaped & a ligament snip in 2015, so I guess he would have been 11 at the time. Ex racer. The post op x rays were perfect but his performance never improved. It turned out that he had PSSM/MIM all along, p3/px. I wasn't aware of the hair test in 2015. He is still going and I ride him every day, but it's only 20 minutes in walk in the arena & he doesn't want to trot.

Mine is more or less the same age - I have a gut feeling there's more going on than "just" the back.

I have had two horses through this op the last one is my current horse he had three shaved and three snipped his problem was congenital he was born with huge chunky processes ( ID ) my other had an awful back so damaged he had six removed right down .
Both horses did really really well I lost the second one to tumours so never really got the long term benefit I hoped for but he felt awesome before we hit that problem he changed temperament he was happy his flat work was like a different horse and jumping him was a delight ( he was an advanced event horse ) .
Sky also is very different although with him it’s very subtle .
Neither of these horses had outside signs it was not clear cut they had a sore back .
Both horses had no visual clue they had had surgery after four months this is a big thing to consider you could buy a horse that was vetted and it could have had a very big op and has no external clue.
I would do it again but it’s at the limit of what’s acceptable.
I would only do it of I had a good set up for the rehab and people with the right skills and a lot of time post op or I was committed to send them to a experienced rehab yard for a prolonged time .

PS with Sky I did a lot of diagnosis work on the rest of him before he went including looking for PSD a sniff of anything nasty in that direction and I would not have gone ahead .

Thank you for your reply, this particular horse has had loss of performance workups in the past and a full body bone scan didn't reveal anything other than age related changes...gut feeling is that there is something else going on. I think early retirement is on the cards!

 

[Goldenstar]

OP, TBH both of my horses where doing their job for me prior to surgery staying the same would have been enough .

 

[SEL]

Don't rule out a change in saddle making a huge difference. I have a native pony with inoperable KS - she has a long list of issues - but was happy hacking apart from being tetchy to girth up and to mount. She is ears pricked riding and will pretty much take herself around her favourite routes so I am just as sensitive as I can be.

But I recently got her a WOW saddle. We still have some way to go in terms of getting the right balance in it but she's had a personality change with tacking up. I think the large air bags spread the weight better for her and the headplate gives clearance to the problem in her wither area (its withers and fused just after T18 with her). I've also noticed that we don't come back from a ride and she drops straight to the floor for a roll after untacking. Even hot and sweaty over the weekend she went to see what the others were doing in the field first so I think she is hugely more comfortable.

Although changing saddles can be expensive as vet investigations.....

 

[bouncing_ball]

I watched someone else's horse rehab from the the bone shaving surgery. Was a quick recovery. Wounds were very superficial. He was back being turned out within a very short period. He did the months of required rehab and strengthening after. Seemed to work well for him. Compared to colic surgery, I think recovery is much better.

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s definitely more likely to get you a useful horse than colic surgery which is something I would not embark on .

 

[w1bbler]

I tried to rehab without surgery. She fell apart when I stopped riding & became more & more uncomfortable & I'd reached the decision to pts as I did not feel she was comfortable enough to be a field ornament.
Physio convinced me to try surgery. 8 processes shaved, lumbar region particularly badly effected, surgeon was amazed she had never misbehaved under saddle (refusing jumps was the biggest symptom)
2 years on she is going fabulously & I'm very happy I took the chance.
Anyone opting for surgery, please throw away the vets rehab plan & get yourself a very good equine bodyworker who is experienced with ks. The rehab is as important as the surgery & should not involve endless circles in a pessoa or similar. Don't be in a rush to get back on, I took 6 months before I thought her back was strong enough to carry a rider.

 

[ycbm]

Anyone opting for surgery, please throw away the vets rehab plan & get yourself a very good equine bodyworker who is experienced with ks. The rehab is as important as the surgery & should not involve endless circles in a pessoa or similar. Don't be in a rush to get back on, I took 6 months before I thought her back was strong enough to carry a rider.

I think this is great advice. My rehab plan had the horse cantering under saddle before being considered strong enough to turn out. I really struggled to understand how a horse could be strong enough to carry 12 stone directly on top of the surgery site in canter but not be strong enough to turn out.

 

[toppedoff]

If you need any more reinforcement I can show you my x ray of the ligament "snip" operation, which shows a chisel buried deep in my horse's spine. I have pretty much campaigned against the desmotomy operation being referred to as a "snip" ever since, it's nothing like as simple or harmless as the tiny word snip implies.

hey, would it be ok if i saw the x rays? ive never had any experience of this but id like to see what it is - i have also been told it is just snips

 

[Goldenstar]

I have to say I don’t do vets rehab plans I trust my physio and myself

 

[IrishMilo]

I feel that if I have to have it operated on in order for it to be ridden, it's not in the horse's best interest. I'm a leisure rider and not a professional, I don't NEED to ride the horse for a living and my goal at any one time is for the horse to be stress free and comfortable. If I can't provide that through lifestyle, remedial work or any other non-invasive option, the horse is put down. It makes for both a very simple and a very sad ownership style, but it's one I reconcile by knowing any horse in my care doesn't knowingly suffer more than necessary.

 

[ycbm]

hey, would it be ok if i saw the x rays? ive never had any experience of this but id like to see what it is - i have also been told it is just snips

"Just snips" drives me absolutely mad. Would any layman call this a "snip"? The surgeon was dripping in sweat by the time he had finished 5, he looked like he'd run a marathon.

 

[toppedoff]

"Just snips" drives me absolutely mad. Would any layman call this a "snip"? The surgeon was dripping in sweat by the time he had finished 5, he looked like he'd run a marathon.

View attachment 114110

oof, doesnt look like how its been described at all. thank you so much, very interesting!

 

[sbloom]

Mine is more or less the same age - I have a gut feeling there's more going on than "just" the back.

Thank you for your reply, this particular horse has had loss of performance workups in the past and a full body bone scan didn't reveal anything other than age related changes...gut feeling is that there is something else going on. I think early retirement is on the cards!

I'm a firm believer in compensatory patterns causing these issues, and there's almost always more than one, even if some are much milder than others. So it's neither primary nor secondary, it just is. The horse has likely been moving in a compromised manner for some time and will have compensations in more than one place. So often hocks, suspensories, SI or even front feet show up as further problems.

ALso bear in mind the initial issue that the horse was compensating for could arguable go back to birth. We don't do enough to straighten foals out, we don't do enough to help horses before starting work and then we put weight on them which makes everything way more serious. We have lost sight of what a healthy musculature and carriage looks like, competition rewards incorrect ways of going in so many cases, and we end up injecting like it was going out of fashion. I have a BIG problem with all this.

Rehab should be teaching the horse to move differently, the fine details, how they initiate movement, where their balance is etc, and so much rehab is too advanced for what the horse can do. If they can't move off without losing balance eg lifting their heads or stepping out etc then they're certainly not ready for backing up slopes, poles etc, there is PRE-hab needed for so many horses and so many inappropriate rehab plans given out.

 

[ycbm]

I'm a firm believer in compensatory patterns causing these issues, and there's almost always more than one, even if some are much milder than others. So it's neither primary nor secondary, it just is. The horse has likely been moving in a compromised manner for some time and will have compensations in more than one place. So often hocks, suspensories, SI or even front feet show up as further problems.

ALso bear in mind the initial issue that the horse was compensating for could arguable go back to birth. We don't do enough to straighten foals out, we don't do enough to help horses before starting work and then we put weight on them which makes everything way more serious. We have lost sight of what a healthy musculature and carriage looks like, competition rewards incorrect ways of going in so many cases, and we end up injecting like it was going out of fashion. I have a BIG problem with all this.

Rehab should be teaching the horse to move differently, the fine details, how they initiate movement, where their balance is etc, and so much rehab is too advanced for what the horse can do. If they can't move off without losing balance eg lifting their heads or stepping out etc then they're certainly not ready for backing up slopes, poles etc, there is PRE-hab needed for so many horses and so many inappropriate rehab plans given out.

I agree with most cases being that way, SB, but GS and I have both had horses with DSPs that were so big and fat there was no room for them. The surgeon said he sees horses who were born with them regularly.

 

[Goldenstar]

OP you need some heavy duty advice from a specialist .
You need to think about snips as a denerving procedure that gives you time to rehab the horse with no discomfort and the nerves can regrow .
Starzaan who posts on here does Rehab as a job I would pm her I am sure she won’t mind .
The Op is only as successful as the quality of the rehab .

 

[Goldenstar]

I agree with most cases being that way, SB, but GS and I have both had horses with DSPs that were so big and fat there was no room for them. The surgeon said he sees horses who were born with them regularly.

My vet who specialises in this surgery and trains others to do it told me that IHE most cases are driven by the horses bone size .
This is not what they thought when they started out with KS surgery .

 

[sbloom]

I agree with most cases being that way, SB, but GS and I have both had horses with DSPs that were so big and fat there was no room for them. The surgeon said he sees horses who were born with them regularly.

I'm sure that's possible, and we for sure are breeding horrendous problems into our horses which we're only just starting to see as problems. I would love to really dive into these sorts of cases with people who have rehabbed severe cases and get their opinions on the xrays.

Are bones getting bigger? My instinct says not but that's pure instinct and not based on anything else. Again, would be really interesting to get into the weeds of this.

 

[ycbm]

Well you can see my xrays SB, I have others if you want. He simply had huge fat DSP's immediately behind the saddle, you can see the shadow of them on the photo above. They aren't "normal", they're great fat fingers of bone, there's simply no room for them to separate properly.

I don't think it's anything to do with bones being bigger, I think horses have always had these problems, we just used to shoot the ones that refused to be ridden. These days we xray them and find it.
.

 

[rextherobber]

I'm a firm believer in compensatory patterns causing these issues, and there's almost always more than one, even if some are much milder than others. So it's neither primary nor secondary, it just is. The horse has likely been moving in a compromised manner for some time and will have compensations in more than one place. So often hocks, suspensories, SI or even front feet show up as further problems.

ALso bear in mind the initial issue that the horse was compensating for could arguable go back to birth. We don't do enough to straighten foals out, we don't do enough to help horses before starting work and then we put weight on them which makes everything way more serious. We have lost sight of what a healthy musculature and carriage looks like, competition rewards incorrect ways of going in so many cases, and we end up injecting like it was going out of fashion. I have a BIG problem with all this.

Rehab should be teaching the horse to move differently, the fine details, how they initiate movement, where their balance is etc, and so much rehab is too advanced for what the horse can do. If they can't move off without losing balance eg lifting their heads or stepping out etc then they're certainly not ready for backing up slopes, poles etc, there is PRE-hab needed for so many horses and so many inappropriate rehab plans given out.

Absolutely agree, with all of this !

 

[rextherobber]

OP you need some heavy duty advice from a specialist .
You need to think about snips as a denerving procedure that gives you time to rehab the horse with no discomfort and the nerves can regrow .
Starzaan who posts on here does Rehab as a job I would pm her I am sure she won’t mind .
The Op is only as successful as the quality of the rehab .

Thank you - I'm pretty sure I won't be going down the surgery route, I have the facilities to allow for retirement and the horse is happy and sound when turned out.
It doesn't sit well with me, doing the operation simply so I can ride, ( that image of the chisel in the spine !) I don't mean to offend or upset anyone who has gone down the surgical route, I totally get that every horse and situation is unique and individual , and obviously there are many cases with a successful outcome and I do appreciate everyone taking the time and trouble to reply - I just don't feel its appropriate in this case, with this horse.

 

[Goldenstar]

Ycbm I agree with the ID has got less heavy in the bone not heavier .
We just used to write off horses with issues like KS, PSD often they where written off as wrong uns I am sure my first horse was a KS horse but I was 15 you could not X-ray a horses back then.
I know now horses like that are not mad and bad because vets can now diagnose using various types of imaging and do something about all sorts of things
Your decisions now are difficult and multifaceted where once it was rest inside, rest outside or give up and shoot.
when I first started working the yards vet,a very good vet simply did not accept that back pain existed in horses .
I don’t really subscribe to the everything is awful now narrative .

 

[AandK]

My 10yo TB was diagnosed with KS a year ago. He started bucking when asked to canter (more kicking out than a proper buck), he also has an arthritic hock from an injury (summer '19) and on the diagonal front foot he had a keratoma removed (Nov '20), so that foot was slightly weak still. X-rays looked like his back had been like that for quite some time (ex flat racer), so not sure if KS was causing the issue. Medicated back and hock, started working in hand and then first time a saddle went on in the stable he exploded once girthed up. Scoped and found grade 2 and 3 squamous ulcers. Treated those and scoped clear, has been fine since. We're almost at the point of canter under saddle now (had 3 months off over winter through no fault of his own. Hock re-medicated with gel in March) and he is looking, and feeling, stronger than ever. Not sure if the KS was ever an issue, or we just found it as we x-rayed his back. Long story short, I won't put him through the surgery, if he would even be a candidate, as he's already had two ops since I got him just over 4yrs ago, and I think it is quite a brutal op. If the KS became an issue, he would be retired if sound/happy in the field, or PTS if not.

 

[Indefatigable]

I first sat on a horse at the age of 3. I'm now 66. It's really interesting to see how the horse world has evolved. Until the 90s horses were more straight forward (maybe because of the change in breeding programmes). I've had my fair share of of equestrian 'ups and downs' over the years and have made it my business to educate myself. More and more I really do wonder if we should be asking so much of these wonderful, soulful beings. I see what the pros are doing and I see what the well-meaning novices are doing (benign neglect, quite often). After losing my horse at the end of last year, I'm now sharing a quality, sparky WB, but they are a head shaker and flinch when you girth them up (however tactfully). Should we really be getting on their backs? Who was the first human to think that was a good idea!

 

[ycbm]

I first sat on a horse at the age of 3. I'm now 66. It's really interesting to see how the horse world has evolved. Until the 90s horses were more straight forward (maybe because of the change in breeding programmes). I've had my fair share of of equestrian 'ups and downs' over the years and have made it my business to educate myself. More and more I really do wonder if we should be asking so much of these wonderful, soulful beings. I see what the pros are doing and I see what the well-meaning novices are doing (benign neglect, quite often). After losing my horse at the end of last year, I'm now sharing a quality, sparky WB, but they are a head shaker and flinch when you girth them up (however tactfully). Should we really be getting on their backs? Who was the first human to think that was a good idea!

I'm having exactly the same struggle. This time round I've quite deliberately bought a horse who would be here whether he had a career as a leisure horse or not. He wasn't bred for what I'm keeping him for now. If we can't keep him sound he will definitely be my last.

The first person who thought sitting on a horse was a good idea probably needed to get from A to B faster to feed his family. The ethics of doing it purely for our own pleasure are beginning to seriously churn my brain.
.

 

[equinerebel]

I knew a horse many years ago who was pts rather than have the operation. A good friend of mine has just had her horse operated on and is now rehabbing him. I really don’t think I’d agree to it for mine, personally.

I do struggle with the ethics. My horse loves hacking out, but I don’t think I’d ever ask her to do “serious” work again (she’s late teens now anyway).

I’m struggling with whether she’ll be my last or not. I hope I don’t have to decide for a long time

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

It’s not an operation I would put any horse through. I actually do think it’s unethical.

I am pretty much in this camp.

Although my friend bought a very expensive lovely mare that I think obviously had KS before she bought her, I saw the horse twice at both viewings beforehand and didn't like what I saw my advice was not followed.

A few months on the horses routine was massively changed and it all fell apart investigations made found KS and ulcers, horse had surgery and everything treated and so far she has been fine.

 

[IrishMilo]

I'm having exactly the same struggle. This time round I've quite deliberately bought a horse who would be here whether he had a career as a leisure horse or not. He wasn't bred for what I'm keeping him for now. If we can't keep him sound he will definitely be my last.

The first person who thought sitting on a horse was a good idea probably needed to get from A to B faster to feed his family. The ethics of doing it purely for our own pleasure are beginning to seriously churn my brain.
.

Funny you say this as I'm having the same internal struggle at the moment too. How do you give up something that's in your bones, the thing you've always known when you become more certain of the truth and less OK with the ethics of it all...