Lack of good livery making me want to give up

[conkers]

I have had horses for 30 years and have been on some fabulous yards. But recently I am finding it harder and harder to find anywhere that I want to keep my horses.

I don't feel that I am looking for anything difficult - I am looking for Full livery where my horses get turned out every day in a paddock that is bigger than a postage stamp, are fed ad lib haylage, are mucked out to a reasonable standard, are happy to take mares and where the owner / grooms notice if there is a problem. In return, I am happy to pay a realistic rate per week.

I was on a yard for 4 years which fulfilled all of this until they had a change of management which led to a massive drop in standards of care. So I moved to a yard where they were well looked after but the yard was sold and I had to move again. I am now travelling an hour to a yard where they are looked after but they don't do full livery and I will have to move again before winter.

After 18 months of this I have had enough. Horses are supposed to be my out of work pleasure. The lack of decent yards and constantly having to compromise is wearing me down more than I thought possible. I am ready to give up.

Is anyone else finding this. Or is it just me being picky?

 

[be positive]

I have taken liveries for many years and try to do the best for the horses and their owners, daily turn out all year, not postage stamps, ad lib forage etc with exercising or schooling if required but am now giving up and selling my yard so went to look round a few places with one of my clients and I was shocked.
Yard 1 "we turn out all winter" with the add on "if it is not raining!!" well last winter would have meant very little time out.
Yard 2 only do full livery, everything I saw was obese or borderline, yes the facilities were reasonably good, the beds immaculate but our older good doer would not be suited by the turnout or the daily feeding so they are not left out when the others get fed.
Yard 3 stank of urine in the indoor yard and stables were filthy at 9.30am when I popped in to see the YM ! limited turn out but very good facilities.
Yard 4 not geared towards ponies at all but may be the safest option as it is very small and he could be barn kept over winter with restricted turnout in summer.

Any others I know of have not been looked at because they don't offer full livery, don't do winter turnout at all or even worse 1 doesn't even have an arena/ turnout pen or walker and keeps them in all winter.

 

[Abacus]

Do you include riding in that, or do you only mean care, to include feed and bedding?

What do you mean by a realistic rate? I know that to offer full livery I would have to charge a minimum of £123 per week (including bedding and hay but not feed) and this would make no more profit than if I let the stable on a DIY basis, plus is more admin in ordering etc.

Sadly land and maintenance are so expensive that it's hard to make a profit out of running livery on any basis. I don't bother any more - I just have someone who has free livery in return for helping with mine.

 

[Spottyappy]

Am so grateful I have my own yard.
Mine are mostly out 24/7. In more last winter due to the awful wet weather, but still had 6/7 hours turnout every day bar 2 in the whole winter.
We do have a couple of nice yards locally who don’t normally restrict turnout, but you can never say never given how bad the last winter was.
I hope you can find the place you need, Conkers. Maybe give a general not specific idea of where you are in the country and someone on here maybe able to help.

 

[Bernster]

May depend to some extent on what area you are in, and whether you have much choice, but also on what 'reasonable' and 'realistic' is, as that might not fit the market/standard?

I'd say that I'm a fairly easy going livery and what you're looking for matches my list for a yard. I've been on several yards and, whilst some have been better than others in different ways, I've been happy with all but one of them so I'd say they are out there. 1 hour seems a long way to find yours, and that's not exactly what you want, so I hope you find a more suitable one soon. Would be a shame to give up on horses for that reason.

 

[conkers]

Thanks for the replies.

I wouldn't expect riding as part of full livery.
I am based at Wakefield. And I would expect to pay around £100 a week and provide my own feed, which seems to be the going rate around here.

 

[ihatework]

Thanks for the replies.

I wouldn't expect riding as part of full livery.
I am based at Wakefield. And I would expect to pay around £100 a week and provide my own feed, which seems to be the going rate around here.

I think this is where you might be going wrong unfortunately.
Prices are going up, labour is more difficult to find. The only yards around me where I could get 7 day livery for £100/week are yards I would not put my horses at.
The good yards are closing because they can’t make money - due to clients thinking £100 is a fair rate.

I personally think £120 minimum, but round here (central/south west) you are talking £130-150pw for high standard livery without riding

 

[Abacus]

Maybe grooms are cheaper there (I'm in the south east) but it would cost me £90 per horse per week to supply hay, bedding and to pay a groom.

 

[Bernster]

My experience of the SE it's getting up to £175 per week for the more expensive yards. Not the uber expensive ones that polish your horse's nose, those are even more expensive.

 

[Fanatical]

I think this is where you might be going wrong unfortunately.
Prices are going up, labour is more difficult to find. The only yards around me where I could get 7 day livery for £100/week are yards I would not put my horses at.
The good yards are closing because they can’t make money - due to clients thinking £100 is a fair rate.

I personally think £120 minimum, but round here (central/south west) you are talking £130-150pw for high standard livery without riding

I wish there was a 'like' button. Too many people expect too much for their money and have absolutely no idea how much it costs to maintain land and facilities to a suitable standard to keep horses.

 

[be positive]

Costs vary depending on area but in my examples above yard 1&2 were approx £150 per week for a pony, more for a horse, the others in my area, south west, would be a bit under but not many would offer full livery for £100 per week unless they did cut corners in some way or like me do all the work so no wages to pay out but even then I wouldn't do 7 day for a big horse for under £20 per day, owners will find prices going up to get the books balancing.

 

[teach]

I have overcome this, but finding a good but pure DIY Yard, and hiring a local freelance groom to provide services as required..

 

[sport horse]

I think people vastly underestimate the cost of employing staff. The NMW is £7.38 to £7.88 per hour for over 21 years. (under that age would almost certainly need quite a lot of supervision). Add to that NI contributions and Pension Fund contributions, 28 days holiday per annum (national minimum) and bear in mind that you are asking for 7 days/week labour.

How many horses can one member of staff look after? What other jobs have to be built into that member of staff's job? (feed delivery, much heap tidy/removal, sweep yard, tidy tack rooms, clean toilets/tea facilities etc etc.)

It is actually quite scary when you do the sums and I am not surprised that prices are rising. They will rise more unless we have a very 'easy' autumn with a good late flush of grass. Hay is scarce in many areas, straw is short and wood shavings seem impossible to get even during the summer when it has normally been possible to stock up.

Land is at all time high prices especially in urban areas where many people do require livery. The cheapest part of horse owning is buying the horse in the first place!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Question (not aimed at the OP, but generally) why do people expect to pay the same or less for a horse or pony at full livery, than they would do for boarding their dog?

In the early to mid 90s I was charging £25 a week DIY and £80 full for pony and £95 horse (without exercising or tack cleaning) with turnout 24/7 or stabled 50/50 depending on what was wanted. This was similar to other local yards.
Prices have only gone up a fraction round here (home counties) well over 30 years later.

Dog boarding round here starts around 15 a night, can be 25 in the better places......

 

[HelenBack]

I do have to wonder if there is a bit of a chicken and egg situation here though. I live in an area where there aren't many yards and the few there are aren't great for one reason or another. The yard I am on is the most expensive in the area and I chose it because I think it fits my horse's (and my) needs best. The price wasn't really a consideration in my decision at all.

Despite it being the most expensive though, the yard owners still cut corners to save money and there are many things about the place that frustrate me. On discussion with other owners there are several of us who agree that we would happily pay more if the frustrations were addressed. We don't grumble about the place being expensive, rather the fact that it represents poor value for money.


I do think there are a lot of people who are unrealistic in their expectations about what livery should cost and who don't understand that the majority of the money they pay doesn't go direct into the yard owners' pockets. I think if yard owners were to try hiking their prices in return for high quality facilities and turnout though they might surprised by the positive reaction they'd get. Obviously not everybody could afford it and there will always be a place for cheap and cheerful yards. If an excellent but expensive yard opened in my area though, I'd be there like a shot, and so would quite a few other people I know.

 

[Farma]

I think you either have to up your budget or lower your expectation unfortunately, before I moved house I lived in an area with an abundance of livery yards, all reasonable cost as there was so much local competition, all with excellent facilities.
When I moved only an hour up the road it was a totally different story, hardly any yards as the big ones had all been sold for development so the cheapest decent full livery yard is £150 per week and 18mile drive each way and the diy yards are rather hit and miss, that was then made harder by the limitation on children being allowed on yards this way. I ended up going from a lovely yard to a bit of a run down farm on diy with services, I felt like I was making huge compromises in terms of facilities but I have made it work now, the hacking is good, they can live out all summer which has been good having that flexibility, the arenas aren't great but I box out once a week at least for a proper workout and its so relaxed and friendly its been worth losing other things for.

 

[redredruby]

If there are livery yards in your area that you like but which are out of your price range then I think you’ve found the source of your problem......if not, then I understand your frustration.

I pay £125 for full livery plus a small supplement due to increase in hay price and think this is very reasonable.

 

[tankgirl1]

I have overcome this, but finding a good but pure DIY Yard, and hiring a local freelance groom to provide services as required..

I used to run an animal care business and charged £10 an hour, minimum of £6 a visit for up to 20 minutes within a 5 mile radius of home, so you'd be looking at minimum £84 a week, plus your DIY cost, hay, bedding and feed. And I was cheap!

 

[spacefaer]

I charged £85/week in 1996 for all care/feed/bedding and turnout - the only things we didn't do was ride the horse and clean the tack. Out of that £85, it was costing me £50 in straight costs, before I added in the hidden costs. That was in Gloucestershire

I couldn't do it for £100/week now.

 

[Boulty]

To be fair to original poster I'm in Leeds so more or less next door area-wise and £100 a week is about the going rate in this area for 7 day full livery and basic facilities (with the caveat that the yard will continue to charge this all Summer even if the horses are out 24/7 and not using bedding (and a lot 'round here tend to take on extra staff for the winter then let them go in summer to reduce their costs). If you PM me what areas may work for you I may be able to suggest a couple of yards you could ask at that do Full livery year-round that may fit your requirements although they'll be more South Leeds than Wakefield area and unsure if they'll have spaces.

I do feel your pain though and am in the process of moving my horse to a yard in South Yorks about an hours drive away as I can't find anything local that totally caters to what I want. (My horse is a tad awkward though in that he needs (possibly total) grass restriction in Spring / Summer whilst still having turnout with other horses and he hates being stabled so as much winter tunrout as poss (he'd like to live out in an ideal world) in addition to the requirement of ad-lib forage and an overall decent standard of care) I've been on DIY (with an understanding yard owner who helps me out a lot when I work weird shifts) with no arena and no frills for a few years in exchange for fantastic hacking and lots of turnout & freedom to do what I like but a few laminitis scares have driven me to explore other ways of managing the pony

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I have overcome this, but finding a good but pure DIY Yard, and hiring a local freelance groom to provide services as required..

I do something similar. I’m on a pure DIY with no services but pay a free lancer who keeps horses on the Yard £12 a day to do my horse Monday - Thursday. I get a much better service as I buy all my hay, feed and bedding and never have to put up with poor mucking out and broken promises about how much hay and bedding I’m allowed to use. As she’s already on the Yard she’s not making a special trip so can do it more cheaply. She also treats him like her own and so he’s never treated like an annoyance.

 

[alainax]

Much like house prices it’s all about area. Ops budget could get her decent full livery in Scotland. Or rent an apartment!

In my search I found on full livery budget is unimportant, but a compromise on one factor is expected.

 

[siennamiller]

If you’re travelling an hour to a yard, could you not find a diy yard nearby? I know you said you want full, but you could do most of your jobs in an hour?

 

[Kikke]

I think this is where you might be going wrong unfortunately.
Prices are going up, labour is more difficult to find. The only yards around me where I could get 7 day livery for £100/week are yards I would not put my horses at.
The good yards are closing because they can’t make money - due to clients thinking £100 is a fair rate.

I personally think £120 minimum, but round here (central/south west) you are talking £130-150pw for high standard livery without riding

I have to agree with this!!!

 

[JulesRules]

Ref the question about dog boarding, I think you would need to compare that to the cost of holiday livery rather than normal livery. The dog boarding is more akin to what you would pay to rent a holiday cottage for a week than to rent a house to live in.

OP - agree with the post above, if you are travelling an hour couldn't you almost do your jobs in that time, especially if you could find assisted livery close by. I'm on assisted DIY which includes turn out and bring in and the major advantage is only needing to visit once per day.

 

[Blurr]

the yard will continue to charge this all Summer even if the horses are out 24/7 and not using bedding (and a lot 'round here tend to take on extra staff for the winter then let them go in summer to reduce their costs).
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...-me-want-to-give-up/page2#WzdDv2oOUHCgmw91.99

I have no idea why anyone would think their livery should reduce in the summer. The yard will have averaged out their costs for the year in their business plan.

 

[flying_high]

7 day full livery no riding, decent 20x60, hacking, decent all year turnout in my part of surrey is easily 500-700pcm.

Most yards are in the 500-600 region, and have limited and poor draining and over grazed turnout.

 

[Charlie31]

To be fair this seems to have turned into the age old argument over what decent livery costs to provide versus what owners are prepared to pay. The OP originally stated a set of fairly simple requirements and said they were prepared to pay a sensible amount for this. All arguing about budget aside, I read it that the OP simply cannot find a yard that offers a decent standard of service in the area that they live in. I presume they are travelling one hour away now because there is nowhere suitable closer by, and that work or other family commitments dictate that it has to be full livery.

There is a distinct lack of quality yards near to where I live and that is regardless of cost or livery status. I keep my horse at the yard that I consider to be the best of a bad bunch but I wouldn't ideally be there out of choice and would move like a shot if somewhere better opened up, regardless of cost.

As it stands I wouldn't get rid of my current horse but unless I could find a better yard or buy my own land I wouldn't get another horse in the future. So I do really understand where the OP is coming from.

 

[Ceifer]

I pay £110.00 a week for 7-day non ridden livery.

It was the only yard I found within a 20 mile radius that offered winter turnout although I fear that may be restricted this year. I believe it’s good value for money, they operate on the fact they are grazing rich and the horses live out 95% of the time. They have upped the amount of liveries in the last 12 months and now have 18-20 horses on 30 acres.
They don’t want the horses in as it costs them more in hay, bedding and labour but with the wet weather coming I’m hoping they don’t introduce limited turnout as I will be stuffed.
I wouldn’t say corners are cut but they economise on things, horses live in their turnout rugs in the winter overnight (for those that stay in), grooming isn’t included. Basic feed is included. Bedding is also included but my horse has a bale of easi bed once a month as she’s rarely in her stable.
I’m sure that the price will go up fairly soon though, which I don’t mind (within reason) but if the turnout gets restricted I won’t be impressed

 

[spotty_pony]

Shame you aren't in Leicestershire as I could probably have helped you!