Lack of response from Y.O's and cost of extras!

Bottom line is that if we want our horses looked after nicely when we can't be there, it's not cheap.

There's a reason that part livery often works out cheaper than DIY with a few services on top, which is that it enables YOs to plan and manage staffing levels much more effectively, because they know pretty much what needs doing and how many person hours it takes. Plus the stuff that's already been said about how it's quicker for the staff to do things they do regularly when they know where all the horse's stuff is and it's part of the regular routine. So I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to pay a bit of a premium for occasional services to suit your convenience as a DIY livery.

And as for paying for trailer/lorry parking, why would someone expect to get that for free? Takes up at least as much space as a stable after all.

Best of luck OP with finding a yard that works for you and your horse. Nothing's perfect but I'm sure you'll be able to find somewhere that will suit.
 
applecart14 said:
Its all about what people are willing to pay and the feeling of not being ripped off in the process. There is a shop by us for example that charges £1.00 for three standard Mars Bars. If you go anywhere else they are 79p each! I know where I would go if I wanted a Mars bar.
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You are paying 79p usually because the shop is in a convenient place and they are selling petrol or a newsagents, there is very little mark up on confectionary so unless you sell a lot you have to charge more.
If they are paying the national living wage, you want someone competent, who is insured and its convenient for you anything under £2.50 is cheap.
 
I would not bring in another liveries horse ( except in emergency ) if the yard had a bring in the last horse rule. I am a customer not an employee.
If liveries know they will always be last to the yard and their horse won't stay out alone then really they need full livery.
 
Interesting comments which have reinforced my thoughts that some horse owners view yard owners as charitable mugs and not knowledgeable specialist service providers running a business that has to make a profit and provide a living to the owner.
 
concorde said:
I would not bring in another liveries horse ( except in emergency ) if the yard had a bring in the last horse rule. I am a customer not an employee.
If liveries know they will always be last to the yard and their horse won't stay out alone then really they need full livery.
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A few points

I've always brought in another horse if mine was the last one out. I see this as standard practice, I don't mind doing this in the slightest. I often work Sunday mornings free of charge and will feed and turn out the horses or feed and get them in depending on time of year as long as its shared with other liveries on a rota type of basis.
I don't have a problem with my horse going out because I am worried he will get injured so much as I do that I am worried he will injure others because I think initially he would be a bit overwhelmed and silly. If others are prepared to take that risk then that is fine, but I feel its only fair to warn YO's or other liveries.
I have always paid for my horse to be brought in by the yard in the winter when they come in at three or four or whatever and have been happy to do so.
I didn't say I thought £2.00 was unreasonable whoever sad that.
I don't view yard owners as charitable mugs Adorable Alice, I never said that. What I do object to is when they split charge a silly amount for throwing a hay tub over the door which is already made up and bought by me, and pre-wet by me too! (£3.00 - come on!) and when they charge £2.50 to bring in a horse and then charge an extra £1.50 to pick out its feet (90 seconds tops) (not that I would have that anyway for reasons explained previously). I have always been happy paying the going rate at the yards I have been on, I did not say I hadn't but some people are a little avaricious when it comes to charging for extras as my previous two examples state.
I am going to stay where I am for now and see what happens with the sale. Its a horrid situation to be in for all. I hope the buyer decides not to sell.
I have my name down for a yard I was at previously and I am excited that hopefully I can move there albeit on a long waiting list.

Anyway thanks for everyone's comments, interesting reading.
 
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AdorableAlice said:
Interesting comments which have reinforced my thoughts that some horse owners view yard owners as charitable mugs and not knowledgeable specialist service providers running a business that has to make a profit and provide a living to the owner.
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Im with you AA those that want DIY get what they want if you want more use part livery.

Im sorry to have to point out the obvious AC but you are the sort of owner who has led to a lot of YOs calling it a day to be honest you sound like a nightmare. If you run a DIY yard in all honesty you dont want to be doing all the extras thats the whole point of it. We used to run a DIY yard wih 35+ horses and to be honest the best day was the one when the last one left !!
 
I would say if the owner has requested their horse not be left on its own and will pay to have it bought in earlier then fine, or if clearly distressed then yes bring it in, but I wouldn't be happy with that rule as I want my horse turned out as long as possible, not having to come in when everyone else does (if we are talking diy).

I was once on a small diy yard where you were allowed winter turnout but every single other horse stayed in full time over winter due to the owners choice, so mine went out alone everyday and was happy. He really isn't bothered and was much happier being out alone than stuck in with the others.

Diy owners don't want to be doing loads of extra which is why they charge for them. It's probably easier to find a part livery yard :)
 
You said in the first post that £2.50 was unreasonable for a bring in, do you really begrudge that extra 50p if you think £2 would be ok?
 
popsdosh said:
Im sorry to have to point out the obvious AC but you are the sort of owner who has led to a lot of YOs calling it a day to be honest you sound like a nightmare.
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Wholly inaccurate statement, totally unfounded and speculative and totally untrue (not that makes a blind bit of difference on this forum).

  • I have always done more than my fair share around the yard helping out without payment, feeding, getting horses in and turning them out at weekends.
  • I have always paid my bills on time.
  • I have always gone out of my way to create a pleasant atmosphere.
  • I have always abided by yard rules concerning curfew times, turn out, etc
  • I have gone out of my way to assist the yard in making it more pleasant for all, by supplying show jumps and chairs and other equipment that I managed to salvage from my previous job that were being thrown away.
  • I have always done my fair share on helping in other ways like lending people things or helping them with their horses when they have been ill or away on holiday
  • I have always kept my stable, my paddock and my space clean and tidy and swept up after myself.
  • I have always been courteous and polite to staff and fellow liveries and tried not to get involved in yard politics


Furthermore, I have been on my last yard for 10 years, the one before that five, and before that four and my current one over 2 years now, so not quite the nightmare you unfairly point out.
 
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ester said:
You said in the first post that £2.50 was unreasonable for a bring in, do you really begrudge that extra 50p if you think £2 would be ok?
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Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.

It equates to £130 if you only have weekdays or around £170 if you include some weekends. Where this applies to turnout also you are looking at £260 or £340 respectively so yes it does make a difference, of course it does. You have to look at the wider picture Ester.
 
Well applecart ultimately it's down to economics.
If you can find what you are looking for at the price you want to pay then everything is hunky dory.
If you cannot, then it's most likely your expectations are unreasonable rather than yards 'ripping you off'
 
ihatework said:
Well applecart ultimately it's down to economics.
If you can find what you are looking for at the price you want to pay then everything is hunky dory.
If you cannot, then it's most likely your expectations are unreasonable rather than yards 'ripping you off'
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I don't think I ever said that I felt yards were 'ripping me off' in general, just the one that I mentioned many years ago. I do feel that some prices are over inflated, but like you say it is down to economics. Whilst someone might be happy to pay £90 per week, in some parts of the country others would be aghast at paying more than £60.

My current yard is very reasonably priced for what we get which is why I would like to remain if I could (as well as all the other plus's that I mentioned previously).
 
arlosmum said:
Why is your current yard up for sale, Applecart?
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Hi Arlosmum - the YO is selling for personal reasons that I don't really want to go into on here - the horsey community being what it is, someone always knows someone. She is hoping the new owners will keep her two on as liveries otherwise she will be looking around also.

I am not sure that it will sell that quick so I am going to hold on for now and if a buyer is found hopefully we will get a little notice. Trouble is then, we will all be looking for very limited livery spaces. Its a nice yard with good facilities so not sure how quickly it will sell due to the ties.
 
It might cost a lot to have your horse turned out and brought in during the week, but that's because you are on DIY and the YO obviously does DIY (like most people) so they can get money for renting the space (like the storage locker companies). So you'll pay a premium to have assistance as the yard is geared up for that. However, it really does sound like you'd be better off looking for part livery where things like to/bi are factored into the cost and the YO knows it happens every single day, so the price can go down because they know they will be doing it every day, they get into the routine, they know the horse's quirks.
My part livery is £120 a week and includes absolutely everything except popping on walker, full daily groom, and exercise. I discount if people want to help out with mucking out etc at £5 a muck out as that's what I pay myself/groom per muck out, and I take out food cost if they don't need hard feed.

I hate DIY and assisted DIY because as a YO I would never know if people will turn up, if horses get turned out/mucked out or fed/hayed. I like the yard to be done as soon as possible with muck outs and to/bi so I can get on with the schooling and exercise of the horses under my care. I can't be waiting around for someone to rock up at 9am and start to do their horse, or ring me at 9am saying can I do it please. It completely ruins routine and tbh the hassle of that isn't worth the stable rent. Not to mention people manage land badly and get pissy if YO talks to them about the routine. Part livery and above means the horses are always taken care of, they are always in/out/fed/mucked out whether the owner is there or not and it ensures I as YO know that everything is ok and I can get on with working with the horses. I have a schooling client in at the minute and never been on horse walker before. So it's having to be supervised and now up to 10 minutes. It has to be supervised because it stops and randomly turns around a bit, getting better every time, but still needs supervision and needs to be on the walker on his own. So whilst it has messed with the routine I know if I pop him on the walker first, chill for 10 minutes and then pop him back in his stable with his day hay and then muck everything out and stick other horses on the walker it all works well. But a DIY person could mess that routine right up very quickly, simply by not necessarily always doing the same thing.
 
applecart14 said:
Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.

It equates to £130 if you only have weekdays or around £170 if you include some weekends. Where this applies to turnout also you are looking at £260 or £340 respectively so yes it does make a difference, of course it does. You have to look at the wider picture Ester.
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It's ok, I can do the maths. It's pittance in terms of annual horse keeping costs though and I'm just surprised you can be so aghast when someone suggests you think £2 is too much when £2.50 apparently certainly is.
 
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I think that a lot of livery customers forget that the market is just that. There are an awful lot of people on this forum who shout about how they are customers who should have the treatment appropriate to them spending money, but seem to then begrudge YO charging an economic amount. We have our own place, but can't get our wagon round, so we pay a neighbour for the space to park it off road, he has accesible space, we pay, that is the market.
 
YorksG said:
I think that a lot of livery customers forget that the market is just that. There are an awful lot of people on this forum who shout about how they are customers who should have the treatment appropriate to them spending money, but seem to then begrudge YO charging an economic amount. We have our own place, but can't get our wagon round, so we pay a neighbour for the space to park it off road, he has accesible space, we pay, that is the market.
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absolutely, and you either have to cough up, or make a sacrifice in terms of expectations.... or sell up if it's all too expensive. them's the options :D
 
ester said:
It's ok, I can do the maths. It's pittance in terms of annual horse keeping costs though and I'm just surprised you can be so aghast when someone suggests you think £2 is too much when £2.50 apparently certainly is.
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I get the feeling you are just being argumentative and challenging for the sake of it Ester. I wasn't aghast at all.
In answer to your question you have to have a ceiling limit somewhere, its like anything, you have a price you don't want to go over, that's common sense.

It might be a pittance to you but when weighed up against the costs of three different supplements, hard feed, shavings, insurance, farrier, vets bills, petrol, fly spray and the myriad of other things horse ownership entails (all of which may be a pittance individually) it can become very costly when all put together. I will not go over my head, I don't feel comfortable with that. I would rather live within my means.

I expressed surprise in my initial post at the cost of extras that can bring a £38 DIY livery up to over £75 per week. I did not slate YO's (who have to earn a living) or anyone else for that matter. I personally would not have my own livery yard, I have seen to clear how people struggle to cope running them, and to make money.

If I won the lottery tomorrow I would not go to a super duper state of the art full livery yard that (for example) charges £250 per week either, not matter who it was ran by! No matter how much money I had, I would always watch my money, but I guess that's just me - each to their own and all that. I am just careful with money and I think its sad if I were to be ridiculed because of it.
 
Kylara said:
It I hate DIY and assisted DIY because as a YO I would never know if people will turn up, if horses get turned out/mucked out or fed/hayed. .
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Its been about five or six years now since I last didn't turn up to do my horse and that was only because I was in bed with a slipped disc and Dad did him for me for a few days. I am always there in the evening and would never leave my horse unmucked out or not fed/hayed and the DIY's I know live by the same principle.

I have often heard there is more money to be made out of having DIY's with extras than having part liveries but I am not sure if that is true or no.
 
applecart14 said:
Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.

It equates to £130 if you only have weekdays or around £170 if you include some weekends. Where this applies to turnout also you are looking at £260 or £340 respectively so yes it does make a difference, of course it does. You have to look at the wider picture Ester.
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Of course it makes a difference and so it should. With your daily services you are moving from DIY to assisted or part which means the price is going to increase. You either need to stop being suprised by this or go back to pure DIY.
 
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Applecart. I don't know why you keep comparing things to a DIY price when you are clearly not looking for DIY livery.
 
Mongoose11 said:
Of course it makes a difference and so it should. With your daily services you are moving from DIY to assisted or part which means the price is going to increase. You either need to stop being suprised by this or go back to pure DIY.
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I have never been on pure DIY - I have always been on assisted DIY. I wish people would read my OP properly. Where I was before was £65 per week all in, included free turnout or one bring in daily and hay included (and haylage and straw). Where I am now is about £65.00 per week all in, hay turnout/bring in.

I am not going to comment on this post anymore as I can see where it is heading.
 
applecart14 said:
I have never been on pure DIY - I have always been on assisted DIY. I wish people would read my OP properly. Where I was before was £65 per week all in, included free turnout or one bring in daily and hay included (and haylage and straw). Where I am now is about £65.00 per week all in, hay turnout/bring in.

I am not going to comment on this post anymore as I can see where it is heading.
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Ok, remove the word 'back' from my post and all is well. The point is the same.
 
I think £65 per week all in including turnout/bring in sounds like a good deal and tbh I don't think you are going to get as good a deal as that anywhere else unfortunately....

I'm full DIY on a small yard and we all help each other out if we need to but on a previous yard ' services' were about £1.50 - £2.00 a time. That means it would cost £1.50 to put a pre made feed left outside the stable in for the horse..but it would be the same price to walk the horse out to the field which could take up to 10 mins.

My friend has a yard and she charges £1.50 for all extras - that could be as simple as checking water in the field to changing rugs and turning out. She said its all evens itself out in the end!
 
You can't really put a price on good livery IMO. Having experienced many nutters over the years, I am now on part livery and its about as expensive as some full livery in my area, but the YO is very experienced, does what she says shes going to do and the horse is settled and happy. We aren't really a livery yard though, just a private farm with about 4 other 'liveries', all of which are DIY and one girl runs her own business from the yard. We don't have any rules per say, other than we keep the place tidy, poo pick our own fields and keep an eye out for each other and each others horses. No-one is responsible for anyone elses horses, but as sensible people with good horsemanship skills, none of us would leave a horse out on its own if it were upset or we knew that a particular horse couldn't cope being alone.

I've come across a lot of yard owners who are just that, they own a yard / farm and have had horses for some or all of their lives, but actually have no business skills at all. So they have no idea how to manage clients or how to price things up accordingly.

I'm not in a position to do DIY, so I have to pay for someone else to do it for me. If that's the case for you Applecart, then you will have to suck it up too and accept if you want a good and reliable service then you will have to pay for it. Its worth doing a bit of a cost saving exercise too. For instance, do you need 3 supplements, could you use different bedding, review your insurance and other purchasing habits for horsey things. It maybe that you save in some areas to be able to spend in another.
 
It is a real challenge. I have two horses, both competition warmbloods. Both need good hacking, good all year turnout, decent full size lit school, decent basic standard of yard. I work long hours, cannot cover both ends of every day. I also cannot afford decent part livery for two horses. Not with lessons / competing / training / transport etc. And I want these things as part of having horses. I am on a great assisted DIY yard, and two good sharers, and I get up early / am at yard late and it works out.

In truth I cannot afford two competition horses in full work, and competing, but one will retire soon (he was written off and has come back already). I have a decent job, no mortgage, and no other commitments, and just about manage it.

My yard requires that you buy 7 turnouts or bring ins every week. It is £2.50 for give feed, change rug, pick feet, turn out / bring in. And will do basic emergency stuff e.g. treat wound etc. It is a guaranteed £15 a week per livery, towards the am and pm groom service that they provide, so they can pay grooms fixed wages, and it is a service offered at fixed times.
 
KautoStar1 said:
I'm not in a position to do DIY, so I have to pay for someone else to do it for me. If that's the case for you Applecart, then you will have to suck it up too and accept if you want a good and reliable service then you will have to pay for it. Its worth doing a bit of a cost saving exercise too. For instance, do you need 3 supplements, could you use different bedding, review your insurance and other purchasing habits for horsey things. It maybe that you save in some areas to be able to spend in another.
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Echo this I worked out it is the regular consumables, that are the biggest cost. I buy bedding in bulk which is cheaper. I use big bale hay. Etc.
– I have managed to buy unfortified feed in bulk – significant cost saving. I get lots of things from ebay / FB / freecycle at low cost.

My tack is on house insurance, my third party with BD, my insurance is minimum vet fee cover, fairly high excess.

I ask my sharer for swaps when I travel with work rather than buying in services if I can. Mine are out nights at the moment – more time out, less bedding, less hay, less chores.
 
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