Lame... PLEASE look (pics inc) farrier issue?

re-read the OP... if he has had hinds put back on and already had fronts on id say it is unlikely that having shoes on fullstop is the problem? How old is he? How long out of racing etc? Ask youre farrier to seat the shoes out when they take them off- he might just be feeling his soles.
 
Zargon. He was shod on fronts once before, reshod & now lame. During his first 6wks with me his foot had grown a hell of a lot, I put this down to a change in his diet & rich feeds... Farrier couldn't believe how much it had grown and said he took a lot of toe off.
He is 4. Last race March.


What I have done now, rightly or wrongly, was have his shoes removed. I have padded & wrapped them for the evening & have a different farrier coming out tomorrow to give a second opinion & reshoe the fronts if possible - I have done this purely for piece of mind & to tick bad farriery off of my list.

The next thing I will do if the farrier can see no obvious foot issues - is get the vets out. I waited for a callback today & nothing...

I am also going to speak to a nutritionalist & get their take on a sugar free diet - or at least changing to somewhat...
I'm very exhausted again & drained. I only want this to stop & for him to become right again :( x
 
DragonSlayer said:
^^This^^

My farrier tells me EVERYTHING he is doing, and why he is doing it and HE suggested keeping two of mine barefoot, he trims them, and they have been doing fine for the last....ooo....5 years now....
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Lucky you I have been through 8 farriers in 36 years, only one was interested in discussing the feet every time they shod he was a great farrier but we moved from his area, my present one actually asked me 'Whats going on with your mares feet' when he had come out for a 4th time to put a lost shoe on, of all the people to say that - he should know!

Its high time there was a website that you could rate a farriers work on, very soon the best would be obvious, and the useless would be out of work, there is no proper regulation, the farriers council is next to useless if you complain as I am sure we are all aware.
 
Right so, progress so far:

I have sacked my farrier! HOORAH!
I called the vet out today along with the female farrier I spoke about: they timed it between them so they arrived at the same time to discuss what was going on & the best action:

The vet dug around both of his fronts, his left is worse than his right - she hoof tested & he was ouchy all over it, she had a scrape at one part and he bled, she said this was from a very deep bruise, she stopped right away.

She said she cannot say exactly why he is lame but can only suggest he had existing bruising which coupled with bad shoeing & taking too much toe off has made him worse & caused him to become inflamed.
Farrier agreed. She also added the other guy had nailed very close to the white line which you can sometimes get away with in hardier types, but rarely tbs, said his feet are totally unballanced (he is tilting inwards on both feet) and he has an underslung rolled heel as well as his toe being trimmed incorrectly. So in short totally flat footed & wonky.

What I have been told to do is leave the shoes off for 5days to hot poultice each day until only frog juice is showing on the pad; hopefully all of the bruising and any nasties that may be lurking will have been drawn out & gone by then. Then dry poultice for a further 2days. She has given 5 days worth of Bute just to make him that wee bit more comfortable.
Has said on day 6 if he is feeling & looking better to call the farrier back out & put some shoes on.

I asked about barefoot & boots and the farrier said she can work with me towards being barefoot in the future, but his feet are THAT flat and unballanced currently he will probably struggle ballance wise and have lots of cracks/chips (creating more of a problem) barefoot or in boots. She said she saw no reason why he couldn't go barefoot behind though & actually diagreed with the vet when she said she had advised it. Vet said it was cos he was footy on the hard & his legs looked puffy & swelled. Farrier said that if a leg is puffy and filled shoes definitely wouldn't help the problem.

Farrier says he's THAT sore that he probably won't be sound after first shoeing so she wants to just put lightweight fronts on with a finer nail to start with and get him comfortable, if it takes her an hour per shoe just to get them on; then that's what she'll do.
He is to be on box rest for at least the next two weeks & I should start seeing improvement after 3weeks & with a bit of luck should be able to ride again in 4weeks (if I'm lucky).
If there's absolutely no improvement after the third week the vet was talking about X-Rays!!!! (Ahhhhh!! :/)


In your guys experiences what do you think? A decent enough explanation given today? I'm struggling to believe a horse could become this lame through bruising & a bad trim??? Should I be worried it's more do you think?xx
 
shysmum said:
no pics yet ?

Did you have him vetted ? i think the first plan of action has to be the vet, and a full lameness work up. It may be nothing to do with his feet - and riding him could be bringing up an issue ?
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Agree - if it is not foot - then possibly tendon, shoulder et al.
Where did you buy him from? And what was his history......your photos are lovely - but no help in diagnosing anything, sadly. A vet should know / help. Hopefully something minor, and TB's are wimps - the slightest thing to make them wince. I have a V good farrier - but he has proved hopelesss on getting to the knub of hoof abcesses - the Vet sorted my horse out, after I had listened to the farriers advice for 3 weeks and the horse was hopping thoroughout. Vet found the route of the abscess within minutes - I kept it in for 2 weeks, dressing the foot each day, (farrier had told me to turn it out) and now cured and sound - just have to put the weight on now that it lost through 5 weeks of being in agony!
 
In my experience of thoroughbreds they often have flat feet and thin soles. They therefore bruise very easily and yes I am afraid that a bad bruise and incorrect trimming can make a horse very lame. Bruises are sub solar heamatomas (blood blisters). The build up of blood within the lamia causes pressure and therefore pain bit like an abcess. Vet and farrriers explanations make sense to me. As 90% of lameness in horses is in the foot then I would go with them for the mo. My old TB boy was forever going lame through bruising and always had to be shod all round due to his paper thin soles unfortuanately they don't breed them for good feet.!
 
I've been following your story with interest, it was good to read your vet and farrier were there together and it sounds as though you'll get good support from your farrier if you try and go the barefoot route.
Even if your horse is never comfortable without shoes and needs to be shod hopefully some of the advice you've received will ensure that his feet are the best they can be and he is sound, if he can go barefoot even better, it saves the cost of shoes;)
 
L&B said:
Right so, progress so far:

I have sacked my farrier! HOORAH!
I called the vet out today along with the female farrier I spoke about: they timed it between them so they arrived at the same time to discuss what was going on & the best action:

The vet dug around both of his fronts, his left is worse than his right - she hoof tested & he was ouchy all over it, she had a scrape at one part and he bled, she said this was from a very deep bruise, she stopped right away.

She said she cannot say exactly why he is lame but can only suggest he had existing bruising which coupled with bad shoeing & taking too much toe off has made him worse & caused him to become inflamed.
Farrier agreed. She also added the other guy had nailed very close to the white line which you can sometimes get away with in hardier types, but rarely tbs, said his feet are totally unballanced (he is tilting inwards on both feet) and he has an underslung rolled heel as well as his toe being trimmed incorrectly. So in short totally flat footed & wonky.

What I have been told to do is leave the shoes off for 5days to hot poultice each day until only frog juice is showing on the pad; hopefully all of the bruising and any nasties that may be lurking will have been drawn out & gone by then. Then dry poultice for a further 2days. She has given 5 days worth of Bute just to make him that wee bit more comfortable.
Has said on day 6 if he is feeling & looking better to call the farrier back out & put some shoes on.

I asked about barefoot & boots and the farrier said she can work with me towards being barefoot in the future, but his feet are THAT flat and unballanced currently he will probably struggle ballance wise and have lots of cracks/chips (creating more of a problem) barefoot or in boots. She said she saw no reason why he couldn't go barefoot behind though & actually diagreed with the vet when she said she had advised it. Vet said it was cos he was footy on the hard & his legs looked puffy & swelled. Farrier said that if a leg is puffy and filled shoes definitely wouldn't help the problem.

Farrier says he's THAT sore that he probably won't be sound after first shoeing so she wants to just put lightweight fronts on with a finer nail to start with and get him comfortable, if it takes her an hour per shoe just to get them on; then that's what she'll do.
He is to be on box rest for at least the next two weeks & I should start seeing improvement after 3weeks & with a bit of luck should be able to ride again in 4weeks (if I'm lucky).
If there's absolutely no improvement after the third week the vet was talking about X-Rays!!!! (Ahhhhh!! :/)


In your guys experiences what do you think? A decent enough explanation given today? I'm struggling to believe a horse could become this lame through bruising & a bad trim??? Should I be worried it's more do you think?xx
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It sounds like sensible opinions, for a farrier and vet.

However personally I wouldnt want any nails going into a foot that is so clearly bruised and when the laminae are inflamed and compromised.

Please get the TB stereotype out of your mind. His breeding is not an excuse for him to have poor feet. Its not an excuse to shoe. I would be booting, looking at diet, natural anti inflammatories and letting his feet alone for about 8-12 weeks, then getting them very conservatively trimmed.

He is your horse, the vet and farrier can offer opinions but you do not have to carry them through.

Link to bruising article by barefoot trimmer Lucy Priory - follow the links on the right hand side for more info :)

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/bruising
 
snopuma said:
The farrier has dubbed the toe its what they do to counteract the underslung heel, it doesn't work only masks the problem he has also fitted your horse with a shoe that isn't even flat to the ground, and pinching his frogs, and the sole appears to be proud of the shoe so will be putting great pressure on the inner and outer wall, basically if you farrier thought that was a good job, sack him.

You could try another farrier, or try barefoot with boots to rehab your horses feet, whatever you do you have to do it very soon, your horse is attempting to recify the problem look at the event line and the band, there is a plethera of advice about hooves on the internet now and you are allowed to learn as much if not more than your farrier.

What you will find is that farriers like to keep us in a mushroom state, and by that I mean keep us (the owner) in the dark and feed us BS.

Whereas Barefooters are happy to pass on all examples, diet, contact numbers etc..

as they say a little knowledge can be dangerous, that is why I looked at everything, read everything and talked about everything, alot of knowledge to be had out there, good luck
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Are you are barefoot trimmer? If so you should know the term for excessive rasping of the toe of the foot is 'DUMPING' - Dubbing is what they do when recording music.

Generally there is a small gap at the ground surface where the quarter clips are drawn up.

The OP has had the horse 6 weeks - the event line will be as a result of different grazing/feed not the horse trying to sort out its feet after only being shod a few days!

The picture shown does not have a 'Dumped' toe
This is a dumped toe
Dumping.jpg


Compare
DumpingNOT.jpg


Heels are a little close to the frog, the farrier could have opened the heels of the shoes a little more but has given the horse a wide bearing surface around the quarters to allow for the expansion of the foot when on the ground, he could have straightened the shoe a littl more which would have allowed more room for the heels and frog..

The shoe is not set below the level of the sole - that's just the effect the water has on the photo.

The sole however does look bruised and could be the reason for the tenderness.

What sort of surface was the horse previously used to?
 
Am glad you got them together OP and sounds like you do then have a way forwards.

The only bit I was a bit concerned about was why it was going to take an hour to get a shoe on each foot.. is that because she thinks he might be that uncomfortable with it? I might be a bit reluctant to put nails in if it is going to make him more uncomfortable.

I also am not sure why if he were to be wearing boots (+pads) why his feet would chip and crack :confused:.

Re the lameness/bruising our shod horse was recently really rather lame when she developed a corn under her shoe.. this was resolved by banging flat the shoe in that area to take the pressure off which certainly worked.

fwiw I'm only thinking re the physics of this really rather than shoes off being the only way.
 
My vet said virtually what tigertail said, that she didn't want to nail shoes onto a bruised foot. I was told that after 4 weeks we could consider glue ons but no nails for quite sometime. And the bruising mine has doesn't sound as bad as yours, she certainly didn't bleed when examined!
 
L&B said:
I asked about barefoot & boots and the farrier said she can work with me towards being barefoot in the future, but his feet are THAT flat and unballanced currently he will probably struggle ballance wise and have lots of cracks/chips (creating more of a problem) barefoot or in boots. She said she saw no reason why he couldn't go barefoot behind though & actually diagreed with the vet when she said she had advised it. Vet said it was cos he was footy on the hard & his legs looked puffy & swelled. Farrier said that if a leg is puffy and filled shoes definitely wouldn't help the problem.

Farrier says he's THAT sore that he probably won't be sound after first shoeing so she wants to just put lightweight fronts on with a finer nail to start with and get him comfortable, if it takes her an hour per shoe just to get them on; then that's what she'll do.
He is to be on box rest for at least the next two weeks & I should start seeing improvement after 3weeks & with a bit of luck should be able to ride again in 4weeks (if I'm lucky).
If there's absolutely no improvement after the third week the vet was talking about X-Rays!!!! (Ahhhhh!! :/)


In your guys experiences what do you think? A decent enough explanation given today? I'm struggling to believe a horse could become this lame through bruising & a bad trim??? Should I be worried it's more do you think?xx
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Oh yes a horse can easily become so lame after bruising and a bad trim! The hoof is a very sensitive thing yet so strong it can bear the weight of a horse so easily... when healthy. When it isn't then little things can trigger an avalanche of problems.

My worry with what your farrier has said about shoeing really worries me. If he is so sore and his white line so inflamed, would YOU nail and hammer a shoe on? If your nail was hurt and bruised, would you let someone near it with a hard object to hit it with? Poor horse.

I see boots and pads as "bandages" for poorly hooves. They envelop the whole foot protecting it from tough surfaces, dirt, provides shock absorbancy and allows feet to expand ond contract allowing the pus and bad stuff to come out and more importantly, good blood flow to heal from the inside. This will invariably help with the abscess too.

To shoe now would be prolonging the healing process in my eyes. So I disagree with the farrier in this case as I think balance is quicker got in boots than in shoes. Balance is not just about the hoof wall, it's about the digital cushion, the lateral cartilages, the frog etc and these are the very things shoes destroy over time.

I think you do have a long patient stretch ahead of you but an even longer one in shoes. Boot and pad until the hoof is healthier, then shoe if you think it's still necessary. Not too soon.

I think the vet & farrier have been very good, but they want to make sure their client is riding her horse which is their professional aim, but don't rush into it, make sure you have eliminated all problems so an x-ray is a good idea!

I'm so sorry you're having this problem so soon after you got your lovely horse but take heart, it will get better. All that is needed is a bit of time :)
 
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Thankyou everyone for your advice. I am reading it all and taking it all in...
I suppose my worry with boots & pads is that even after we have some healthy hoof on there and I decide to shoe we will be back at square one again as soon as a shoe it put back on - whether that be in 6weeks, 8 weeks or whatever... What do you think?
I will look into boots though, I have a good week before I have to make any kind of decision so will do all the reading I can.
Can anyone who has mentioned boots recommend some boots and pads? The more economical in price the better as I don't doubt my two vets bills are going to be big, all in one go!x
 
Pines of Rome on here had her boy in boots for turnout etc for quite a while I think initially. I think she used cavallos which are one of the more economical boots and can be well padded. I've not used them myself but you could pm her to ask :).

I think the thing to think about putting shoes back on is that the aim would be to have yours more comfortable before you did that so you wouldn't really be back to square one when you put shoes on as you would hopefully have a less bruised foot to start with :).

fwiw re vets mine was happy for me to take my lame boys shoes off.. but his main reluctance was that I was then not going to be able to ride him as I had been doing pre lameness and I do think they get stuck on getting the horse back to work asap for the owner. He was very much 'you know thats going to take a while don't you' I was happy to be patient about it and conventional treatments didn't work anyway so there wasn't really another choice by then anyway :).
 
L&B said:
Thankyou everyone for your advice. I am reading it all and taking it all in...
I suppose my worry with boots & pads is that even after we have some healthy hoof on there and I decide to shoe we will be back at square one again as soon as a shoe it put back on - whether that be in 6weeks, 8 weeks or whatever... What do you think?
I will look into boots though, I have a good week before I have to make any kind of decision so will do all the reading I can.
Can anyone who has mentioned boots recommend some boots and pads? The more economical in price the better as I don't doubt my two vets bills are going to be big, all in one go!x
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You can often find them second hand on eBay or Phoenix forum too. Or hire from saddlery shop. They have a guide on how to measure. They are a good investment as you can use them if the horse loses a shoe in the field or out hacking too - or they are readily re-sellable for at least 50% of new price.
 
L&B said:
Thankyou everyone for your advice. I am reading it all and taking it all in...
I suppose my worry with boots & pads is that even after we have some healthy hoof on there and I decide to shoe we will be back at square one again as soon as a shoe it put back on - whether that be in 6weeks, 8 weeks or whatever... What do you think?
I will look into boots though, I have a good week before I have to make any kind of decision so will do all the reading I can.
Can anyone who has mentioned boots recommend some boots and pads? The more economical in price the better as I don't doubt my two vets bills are going to be big, all in one go!x
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What do you think boots will do? Look for a pair of Cavallos. Pad them with gel pads or dense foam on the bottom only. It will mould into the shape of the sole and frog.

It's the best thing as it protects the whole hoof yet allows stimulation and growth naturally.

After you have sorted the abscess, what I would do is bed/turnout on soft stuff. Boot up (pads in obviously) and walk in hand. This stimulates growth but protects the feet and hardens up the sole and frog.

There is no way you will end up at back at square one.
 
I did turn my boy out in cavallo boots and comfort pads for about 3 months, this so helped his sore feet, I did try epona glue ons but they would not stay on!
I do feel that if I shod my horse now he would be ok in the short term but after doing this once before I know I would be back to where I started, so he is staying barefoot, he has grown some great feet in the nine months the shoes have been off
 
Just an update on the above & another dilemma:

I ran with Xrays for my boy: no pic yet though, as I only got him Xrayed and his results today. I am going to see them in-life tomorrow at 3pm.

What has been said is: there is no sign of lammi in my boy, he has VERY flat feet, even by TB standards. The vet said his pedal bone was practically touching flat to his sole... And typically, he has very thin sole.
Now, this is the part I'm not happy with: she says he may never come right, she also says IF he does come right I may be looking at a horse who will be on/off lame for the rest of his life, she doubts he will ever be more than a 'fun' horse, and he will without a doubt require remedial farriery...

However, after speaking to my new farrier, his seller (retraining co), and ALSO his old jockey/trainer my thoughts are these: he was sound whilst he was racing else he would have had a bullet - simples, he was sound after coming off of the track & being with his seller for six months (that's 3-4 sets of shoes/trimming worth & 5days work per week), and he was sound with me for 4weeks.
The second he went lame was when he was trimmed and shod at my place, by the yard farrier. Coincidence?

I cannot understand how with patience and correct management & remedial farriery he wouldn't come sound again??? He's been sound before with a 'flat' pedal bone, and if there's been no lammi or rotation, then how can this be affecting him now without it being related to the farrier job? BAFFLES ME!
What I *NOW* think has happened is; he has shockingly flat feet (that's just him), the farrier has been un-sympathetic, brutal & has done a rush job: trimming too much toe back & leaving him on his heels, putting pressure on that pedal bone. He's ended up sore & possibly bruised as a result. BAM!
Nothing can conclude until he's comfy in remedial shoes and grows some hoof back! Thoughts?
I am following a strict diet now also, xx
 
sounds like his feet were just about identical to my mares, ive had her 6 years and yes ive spebt a lot of money on shoes/remedial farriery and she has been lame on and ofd but....but innbetween shes done showing, jumping up to 1m workera and xc and rc activitea. Her wee feet are going backwards atm but i think theres other things going on..just shows you though with a good farrier and good practice anything is possible. fingers crossed for you x
 
Tnavas said:
The picture shown does not have a 'Dumped' toe
This is a dumped toe
Dumping.jpg
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Interesting thread....
This was my horse btw you've quoted pic as toe dumped which turned out to be a wobbler who was PTS earlier this year. Sadly whilst my farrier was a giant nobber I can't attribute all of the dubbed toe to his poor workmanship it was the fact the horse had C3/C4 spinal compression he didn't know where is legs were.
 
On a lighter note I have taken my new horse barefoot. He is very flat footed underun heels, long toes in front. He is however doing brilliantly barefoot and we hack in boots and 12mm soft pads. Tons of new hoof and new growth line correcting his flattest pancake foot. New farrier kept dubbing his toe in shoes and not giving him enough heel support lead to them getting worse. Happy to share a pick of the changes if you are interested. :)
 
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OP, I would give barefoot a chance to work. In shoes - as the vet says - he's going to be on and off lame so what have you to lose by trying?
He has big fat frogs which are a big advantage to start with.
IMO and if he were mine, I would buy a set of boots and thick pads and give it a year, or even six months and then re think, you may find he does better without shoes.
Look at Rockleys blog, do some research and look at all the threads on here which mention barefoot TB's that have been brought back from the brink of PTS and are leading a hard working barefoot healthy useful life.
Good luck with what ever you decide ;)
 
GiddyUpGirl said:
On a lighter note I have taken my new horse barefoot. He is very flat footed underun heels, long toes in front. He is however doing brilliantly barefoot and we hack in boots and 12mm soft pads. Tons of new hoof and new growth line correcting his flattest pancake foot. New farrier kept dubbing his toe in shoes and not giving him enough heel support lead to them getting worse. Happy to share a pick of the changes if you are interested. :)
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GUG! Yes! Pics or anything I can lay my mitts on at this satge is comforting - just to know people are getting there with theirs is giving me hope.
Four years old seems too young to think about retirement or PTS yet :'(
 
L&B said:
Just an update on the above & another dilemma:

I ran with Xrays for my boy: no pic yet though, as I only got him Xrayed and his results today. I am going to see them in-life tomorrow at 3pm.

What has been said is: there is no sign of lammi in my boy, he has VERY flat feet, even by TB standards. The vet said his pedal bone was practically touching flat to his sole... And typically, he has very thin sole.
Now, this is the part I'm not happy with: she says he may never come right, she also says IF he does come right I may be looking at a horse who will be on/off lame for the rest of his life, she doubts he will ever be more than a 'fun' horse, and he will without a doubt require remedial farriery...

However, after speaking to my new farrier, his seller (retraining co), and ALSO his old jockey/trainer my thoughts are these: he was sound whilst he was racing else he would have had a bullet - simples, he was sound after coming off of the track & being with his seller for six months (that's 3-4 sets of shoes/trimming worth & 5days work per week), and he was sound with me for 4weeks.
The second he went lame was when he was trimmed and shod at my place, by the yard farrier. Coincidence?

I cannot understand how with patience and correct management & remedial farriery he wouldn't come sound again??? He's been sound before with a 'flat' pedal bone, and if there's been no lammi or rotation, then how can this be affecting him now without it being related to the farrier job? BAFFLES ME!
What I *NOW* think has happened is; he has shockingly flat feet (that's just him), the farrier has been un-sympathetic, brutal & has done a rush job: trimming too much toe back & leaving him on his heels, putting pressure on that pedal bone. He's ended up sore & possibly bruised as a result. BAM!
Nothing can conclude until he's comfy in remedial shoes and grows some hoof back! Thoughts?
I am following a strict diet now also, xx
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I would buy him some hoof boots and put styrofoam pads inside. They are about an inch thick but squash right down and mold to the shape of the feet. Take the shoes off if not already. Then give him time to grow more hoof.
 
Flat feet/thin soles can be resolved. It is not always easy - but it can be done. Depends a lot on how determined the various parties involved are.

As others have commented - having great frogs really helps and while you are sorting everything out - use boots and pads. I have no idea why these are not more routinely 'prescribed' they are so effective, so versatile and so (relatively) cheap. Yes sometimes it is hard to get a good fit, but as the number of styles and brands evolves and as our collective wisdom grows this is becoming less and less of an issue.

I've worked a lot on TBs and I do find these can be very sensitive to diet - which is invariably reflected in the quality of their hooves.
 
Thankyou for all of your replies...
I have awoken after probably 3hours of sleep & hours and hours of crying yesterday with a more positive attitude.
My lad's temperament is just too good to throw away & give up hope on because of some lameness in his feet. I stayed up til 3am last night cramming myself full of information - it could be so much worse - his pedal bone hasn't rotated or anything of the kind, it's just low, that's all: he's JUST flat footed & being clever about farriery/trimming and diet as far as I can see will fix this.
He's four years old and has never put a foot wrong. He looks after me both ridden and in the field like a little soldier... I'm not about to let that go. We'll get there. I don't give a sh*** if it takes a year.
 
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