Lame... PLEASE look (pics inc) farrier issue?

Really interesting thread - and it leaves me with one big question. If you don't trust your vet or your farrier to give you good advice then why don't you change them?

I have to admit that I haven't read ALL the replies, but it does seem that you've sought professional advice and are choosing to go a different way. The X-ray looks really quite bad, and I wouldn't be wanting to do anything without veterinary advice. If you can find a vet and farrier that supports barefoot or imprint then great - but I wouldn't be wanting to go down the road alone, and certainly not with just a trimmer. You'll need X-rays a few months down the line to check progress so you'll need to have your vet on board I would think.

Apologies if I've misunderstood, and I know that you're leaving the shoes on until you can get imprints.
 
Bedlam said:
Really interesting thread - and it leaves me with one big question. If you don't trust your vet or your farrier to give you good advice then why don't you change them?

I have to admit that I haven't read ALL the replies, but it does seem that you've sought professional advice and are choosing to go a different way. The X-ray looks really quite bad, and I wouldn't be wanting to do anything without veterinary advice. If you can find a vet and farrier that supports barefoot or imprint then great - but I wouldn't be wanting to go down the road alone, and certainly not with just a trimmer. You'll need X-rays a few months down the line to check progress so you'll need to have your vet on board I would think.

Apologies if I've misunderstood, and I know that you're leaving the shoes on until you can get imprints.
Click to expand...

The majority of vets are not open to the idea of horses going barefoot because all their training centres around traditional shoeing.
 
Like wagtail says that is upward rotation of the pedal bone. Quite a severe one at that too. Also the coronary band looks to be higher than the top of the pedal bone which makes it look as if the bone has "sunk". So it's not that the bone has moved, it is the hoof that has moved around the foot and has pulled it upward.

What is happening is that the sole is so thin that it cannot support the weight of the horse and the shoes are literally lifting the hoof wall up and around the pedal bone.

To try and help you picture this, put a piece of card/paper over a bowl and put an elastic band around the edge to secure it. Make a fist. Push your fist down into the bowl on the card. See the card crumple and go into the bowl? This is highly simplistic but is exactly what you are doing to the foot by putting shoes on when he has no strength in his sole or hoof wall. There is nothing to support the sole for as long as he remains in shoes, The only support is the strength of the steel clamping the hoof wall around the internal structures.

Imprints are a very good idea. The BEST thing would be boots and pads to support the SOLE and the internal structures of the foot. It may take 6 months to grow a new hoof capsule but it will be a better connected hoof capsule with a thicker sole.

I don't know how your experts can't see this and tell you to continue to nail a metal ring on the outside wall of his foot when they have both commented on how THIN his soles are. I am so angry right now and if I were you I would have listened to myself and told them both where to go.

Sorry that I come across as angry, however, we do not suffer a shortage of professionals in this country and are at liberty to pick and choose who we want. Nor, are we limited to the amount of information and research available to us laymen. Ultimately it is up to us to keep up the care. As soon as your money runs out they will not come back to help. You will be on your own anyway.

Also, the fact that he has a long pastern has nothing to do with where his P3 is, it's whats happened to the hoof capsule that is entirely responsible. The bruising is not all to do with your farrier, I think your original farrier actually had it right by trying to support the sole a little bit but he wasn't to know how thin the soles were and the position of his pedal bone. The pain is from his whole weight on the soles that are so thin, they can hardly support him nevermind protect him from whats beneath his foot.
 
Wagtail said:
The majority of vets are not open to the idea of horses going barefoot because all their training centres around traditional shoeing.
Click to expand...

I think a lot of good equine vets would take issue with that statement. If I wanted my horses to go barefoot I would find a vet that supported me so that I could be sure of the best professional back up. I wouldn't trust a forum with members that may or may not know what they are talking about or a barefoot trimmer with no professional accreditation or affiliation and therefore no official professional standards to trust. Sorry. Not against barefoot at all, just think that this horse and OP needs some truly professional assistance and there are some very good vets out there who wouldn't poo poo barefoot but would work with her to achieve it if that is actually what would benefit the horse most. But it just might not be the best thing - and surely a good equine vet is the best person to decide that based on the x-rays we've seen?
 
I was not surprised when my vet did not support my desision to take some of my horses BF but I was shocked to be told that boots would be too hard ( as in not soft rather than difficult ) for my TB to walk in and when I said I would be using pads they had no idea what pads were and had never seen any.
 
Bedlam said:
I think a lot of good equine vets would take issue with that statement. If I wanted my horses to go barefoot I would find a vet that supported me so that I could be sure of the best professional back up. I wouldn't trust a forum with members that may or may not know what they are talking about or a barefoot trimmer with no professional accreditation or affiliation and therefore no official professional standards to trust. Sorry. Not against barefoot at all, just think that this horse and OP needs some truly professional assistance and there are some very good vets out there who wouldn't poo poo barefoot but would work with her to achieve it if that is actually what would benefit the horse most. But it just might not be the best thing - and surely a good equine vet is the best person to decide that based on the x-rays we've seen?
Click to expand...

The problem is finding a vet that would consider alternative methods such as barefoot. I am lucky in that my vet does support it, and it was also my vet that suggested the imprint shoes for my mare. However, the vast majority of vets are not aware of these alternatives. Even my vet was impressed by the fact that I had cut styrofoam pads to fit into my horse's hoof boots. She thought it was a brilliant idea. Vets do use the pads but they are usually taped onto the hoof and slide around being next to useless. The idea of using hoof boots to keep the pads in place had never been encountered by her before (was my sister's idea and she's a barefoot trimmer). Also my vets and farrier had not heard of the wraps that can be used on hooves or the aluminium glue on shoes. They just are not trained in this way.

This forum has been invaluable to me and to others. I am sure MANY horses have been saved through the advice given on here. In fact, the first vet (and farrier) missed the laminitis in my mare, and it was only through discussion on here that I was encouraged to get them out and suggest laminitis myself. So, to pooh pooh taking advice from forums such as this is foolish IMO. Obviously, you soon learn who gives good advice and who to take with a pinch of salt. Always, obviously, you need your vet on side.
 
Oberon said:
I am watching a horse with 'genetically flat' soles who went barefoot a few months ago in desperation.

He has been shod since 4 and is now 10.

His owner floated the idea of barefoot with a trimmer a few years ago - but the trimmer (correctly) recommended to keep him in shoes "for now" as the soles were so thin and flat. He recommended some dietary changes and the horse appeared better - so the owner went on as normal and thought no more about the hooves.

But the lameness kept coming back.

So, after some other dietary tinkerings, the shoes came off a few months ago. The horse was unhappy for a couple of weeks (I have not been involved in this process ;)) but has gone from strength to strength - his soles are thickening up :)

While there is still blood supply, there is ALWAYS the potential to turn around the sickest hooves.

If I can be any help - let me know :).

http://www.hoofrehab.com/jessica.htm
Click to expand...

Please please read Jamie's article about Jessica.
 
Something that people need to consider with their thin soled horses - Is what surface are you working them on?

If you constantly ride in an arena surfaced with sand you will find your horse has thin soles. Most sand arenas will have a mix of sharp (Abrasive) and polished sand. Pick up a handful and look at it carefully. Sharp sand has angular edges that help in compressing it into a hard surface, polished sand has a very smooth surface - used alone and the surface will slip all over the place.

Mix them and you have a secure surface with give but also firm to work on.

A prime example of this was the comparrison between my school and a friends school. My arenas were surfaced with bark (post peelings) non of my school horses were shod and had great feet. On the other hand the other school had sand in their arenas, the horses initially unshod knocked out the toes of their hind feet very fast and then started to go unsound as the sand abraided their soles down. They ended up having to shoe everything.

Here in NZ I find horses often get stone bruises, They rarely work on tarmac and when they get on a gravel road they go lame, yet when I worked in the UK we lived in a flint area and some of the tracks we rode on were very stoney yet we rarely had horses with bruising - they often worked on hard surfaces so their feet were tougher.
 
Wagtail said:
However, the vast majority of vets are not aware of these alternatives. Even my vet was impressed by the fact that I had cut styrofoam pads to fit into my horse's hoof boots. She thought it was a brilliant idea. Vets do use the pads but they are usually taped onto the hoof and slide around being next to useless. The idea of using hoof boots to keep the pads in place had never been encountered by her before (was my sister's idea and she's a barefoot trimmer). Also my vets and farrier had not heard of the wraps that can be used on hooves or the aluminium glue on shoes. They just are not trained in this way.
Click to expand...

I've had barefoot horses for over 17 years. I meet a variety of vets across the South East on my travels.

Number of vets I've met in 17 years and 10's of 1,000's of miles that was aware of boots = less than a handful; number experienced in their use = 0

Maybe I'm unlucky.
 
LucyPriory said:
I've had barefoot horses for over 17 years. I meet a variety of vets across the South East on my travels.

Number of vets I've met in 17 years and 10's of 1,000's of miles that was aware of boots = less than a handful; number experienced in their use = 0

Maybe I'm unlucky.
Click to expand...

No you are not I was amazed that mine had to be shown a pad.
 
L&B said:
Right so, progress so far:

I have sacked my farrier! HOORAH!
I called the vet out today along with the female farrier I spoke about: they timed it between them so they arrived at the same time to discuss what was going on & the best action:

The vet dug around both of his fronts, his left is worse than his right - she hoof tested & he was ouchy all over it, she had a scrape at one part and he bled, she said this was from a very deep bruise, she stopped right away.

She said she cannot say exactly why he is lame but can only suggest he had existing bruising which coupled with bad shoeing & taking too much toe off has made him worse & caused him to become inflamed.
Farrier agreed. She also added the other guy had nailed very close to the white line which you can sometimes get away with in hardier types, but rarely tbs, said his feet are totally unballanced (he is tilting inwards on both feet) and he has an underslung rolled heel as well as his toe being trimmed incorrectly. So in short totally flat footed & wonky.

What I have been told to do is leave the shoes off for 5days to hot poultice each day until only frog juice is showing on the pad; hopefully all of the bruising and any nasties that may be lurking will have been drawn out & gone by then. Then dry poultice for a further 2days. She has given 5 days worth of Bute just to make him that wee bit more comfortable.
Has said on day 6 if he is feeling & looking better to call the farrier back out & put some shoes on.

I asked about barefoot & boots and the farrier said she can work with me towards being barefoot in the future, but his feet are THAT flat and unballanced currently he will probably struggle ballance wise and have lots of cracks/chips (creating more of a problem) barefoot or in boots. She said she saw no reason why he couldn't go barefoot behind though & actually diagreed with the vet when she said she had advised it. Vet said it was cos he was footy on the hard & his legs looked puffy & swelled. Farrier said that if a leg is puffy and filled shoes definitely wouldn't help the problem.

Farrier says he's THAT sore that he probably won't be sound after first shoeing so she wants to just put lightweight fronts on with a finer nail to start with and get him comfortable, if it takes her an hour per shoe just to get them on; then that's what she'll do.
He is to be on box rest for at least the next two weeks & I should start seeing improvement after 3weeks & with a bit of luck should be able to ride again in 4weeks (if I'm lucky).
If there's absolutely no improvement after the third week the vet was talking about X-Rays!!!! (Ahhhhh!! :/)


In your guys experiences what do you think? A decent enough explanation given today? I'm struggling to believe a horse could become this lame through bruising & a bad trim??? Should I be worried it's more do you think?xx
Click to expand...

This sounds like the scenario I've just had with my TB. A week ago when I asked my Vet if he could go without shoes he said no he wont manage. this morning he has agreed that a break from shoes is the right thing to do. He's had no fronts on for a week after the same foot soreness after shoeing as your boy. 4 days after the shoes came off he is sound and free moving on concrete and gravel. He is to have his backs off as soon as Farrier can get out. I debated this for a long while, but wasn't brave enough to make the step until now. I have read all the very useful information on here. Luckily i feed a low starch low sugar diet anyway. I am hoping that giving him a break from shoes will be a positive step. Time will tell. He has been shod since the age of 2.
Good luck and I hope your boy improves soon.
 
All things listened to, and as always appreciated & taken onboard.
To whoever raised the concern that I was not listening to professionals; to reassure you, I am...
Imprints were given as an option to me by both farrier and vet.
But vet was pushing towards conventional shoes with a wedge & taking more toe back... Farrier has disagreed & thinks imprints will take the pressure off of his hoof & stimulate his frog whilst giving himself a chance to 'toughen up'. Says it will also correct his toe landing first & if fitted correctly encourage heel growth. But mentioned that his imbalance would be a lengthlier fix & I'd be looking at middle of next yr... A good six months. Farrier thinks imprints are the way fwd & after doing research (and I'm talking scholary articles also) I would be inclined to agree, wedges & heavy metals would just be masking an issue & wouldn't sort my boy long term...
Please don't think I'm not doing my best by my lad, cos honestly, I've been through every emotion in the book... I worship the ground he walks on.

Please let's not get into a barefoot vs shod debate & turn what has been an incredibly valuable thread to me, sour. X
 
To add. I don't NOW (after seeing xrays) blame my old farrier & we have cleared the air.
I do think he could have trimmed & shod a million times more sensitively though.
 
L&B its definitely nice to hear you have a potential plan, it certainly sounds like imprints might be a good half way house for your lad. I also wouldn't worry about it being a lengthier fix too much, sometimes they can be better in the long term :)

Eta do please keep us updated!
 
Tnavas said:
Something that people need to consider with their thin soled horses - Is what surface are you working them on?

If you constantly ride in an arena surfaced with sand you will find your horse has thin soles. Most sand arenas will have a mix of sharp (Abrasive) and polished sand. Pick up a handful and look at it carefully. Sharp sand has angular edges that help in compressing it into a hard surface, polished sand has a very smooth surface - used alone and the surface will slip all over the place.

Mix them and you have a secure surface with give but also firm to work on.

A prime example of this was the comparrison between my school and a friends school. My arenas were surfaced with bark (post peelings) non of my school horses were shod and had great feet. On the other hand the other school had sand in their arenas, the horses initially unshod knocked out the toes of their hind feet very fast and then started to go unsound as the sand abraided their soles down. They ended up having to shoe everything.

Here in NZ I find horses often get stone bruises, They rarely work on tarmac and when they get on a gravel road they go lame, yet when I worked in the UK we lived in a flint area and some of the tracks we rode on were very stoney yet we rarely had horses with bruising - they often worked on hard surfaces so their feet were tougher.
Click to expand...

I regulary work on the beach and my horse has never worn his feet down the more tarmac etc I do the more his feet grow, he requires trimming every 4 weeks. He is a TB and used to have horribly contracted feet they have improved heaps but still not there yet Before and after pics
 
Last edited:
L&B said:
Please let's not get into a barefoot vs shod debate & turn what has been an incredibly valuable thread to me, sour. X
Click to expand...

I certainly am not turning this into a shod v bf debate, I'm discussing very simple mechanics and common sense care. I'mtrying to help you get to a stage where you CAN shoe again, as painlessly as possible for your horse.

To me shoeing (unless imprints) to THAT foot does not make sense.
 
If this were my horse, I'd pull the shoes and have boots ready, makeshift, so that you can order the right size after the trim and get him padded right away.
I believe I can see what is hurting this horse. Its a negative palmer angle. The nose of P3 has been elevated and the height has forced the weight to go down on the heels, which have pulled forward and collapsed down. The coronary band should be 30 degrees and its not even close. This did not happen with this last trim either. It's been developing for awhile and it will take awhile to fix it. The best way is to trim for the horse, not for the shoe, tweak the trim often and wear padded boots for protection.

11111111111111.jpg


The white lines are existing and the red is balance. I've drawn a line on the ground as well. Look at the position of the white bone in relation to the ground line. The bone is down at the back because of the heels and is also up at the front because of the jammed up/flared toe. This is a negative palmar angle. See how the red lines have the bone ground parallel, or 5 degrees to the positive?
The blue line is marking the flatness of the confirmation of fetlock and heel bulb. Flat and tight. That represents pull on the DDFT, which is the green line. It goes past the navicular bone as it curls under P3 and attaches at the bottom. See how the back white-lined bone, being down at the back is the fulcrum of pull on the whole length of the DDFT? That hurts.
With the toe getting so jammed up, it constricts the Extensor tendon in the front. Think of it as an imbalanced pulley system between Extensor and DDFT.
This kind of DDFT pull, pulls P3 back away from the front hoof wall, causing bubbles of separation inside the hoof wall, so you won't necessarily see a stretched white line at the ground.
So imagine a hard pull on the DDFT starting where it attaches to P3, then tight around the navicular bone, aggravating it. Now consider the descending weight of the horse and the ground coming up to meet where bone and tendon attache. The shoe won't protect the hoof from this. If you look at the solar shot, you will see the frog is depressed at the apex...smashed flat. Same area. I think the blood that trimmer hit was the tip of the iceberg of an abscess, the huge corium blow kind, cause this pathology will cause this and I suspect that blowing that abscess is going to part of the healing. You need a pad under the bone to support it, prevent permanent damage to it and to make the horse comfortable.
The shoe in turn, as it is now, attaches to the white line and everything inside of the inner rim of the shoe is hanging through the shoe. No barefoot vs. shoe stuff, just this pic of this shoe on this horse.

IMAG0443_zps2fb8a0bd.jpg


Not only are the heels down on this shoe, but the shoe is jamming up the heels at the same time. Look at the shape of the heels bulbs. Look at the bulge of the central sulcis area. (sag) Also see the shape of the central sulcis. The direction of jam has the heel bulbs starting to twist around each other. Can you feel everything falling through the shoe?

This hoof is so similar to a horse I rehabbed, only he was worse. Even the medial/lateral imbalance is identical. The horse could barely make it from trailer to barn, heel bulbs twisted so hard it erupted its own ergot. If you put your hand out flat, palm down, then raise up your fingertips higher than the heel of your hand, then tilt your hand down on the baby finger side, then go pidgeon-toed, because that's what a high inside does, and imagine what it would be like to walk on. Six months later, booted and trimming often and 5 abscesses later, he was a new horse. The last abscess was a huge corium blow. I'd been whittling away at the same abscess and finally hit the Mother Load. Remember, your horse isn't near as bad, but don't be surprised if abscessing is part of his healing as well. The trimmer, may have hit the tip of the iceberg when she drew blood.
When I got that last big corium abscess to blow on my rehab, I cleaned gently as deep into the hoof that I could safely go. I explored with Q-Tip and went from to the top of the central sulcis at the heel bulbs and followed the passage under the twisted heel bulbs. I thought it would come out of the other side of the twist, but it didn't. It went down deep towards the apex. 24 hours later, huge blow and we were finally done. I will never stop staying that getting squeaky clean is 90% of the answer you seek.

These feet aren't near as bad as my rehab, but the signs are unmistakable. You need to get balanced as quickly as possible and pad the foot well. If you put shoes back on, you're going to have the same problems with the heels. If you pad under them, the height of pad will support gently and not jam the heels up to his armpits. I would pad from the widest part of the hoof, back to the back of the heel platforms and leave a bare toe in the boot. I would put 2 thicknesses of pads in if it made him more comfortable.

He needs a good trimmer who knows his stuff and does the right thing and keeps doing the right thing, and often enough to stay on top of it and move forward.(4 weeks tops) With the padding and daily 30 minute Promenade Walks on asphalt or the barn aisle, he will start to correct and heal. A flat shoe with a flat trim under it every 8 weeks, is only going to perpetuate the pathology. The shoe has the pathology locked in, the cause of this is the trim under that shoe and its been going on for awhile.

The boots are for your convenience, the pads are magic for the horse. He's going to need boots 22/7, with air time to dry out for the first while, then only when you ride later, then you won't need them at all. I think he has a very stressed, but very strong back of the hoof and will snap back quickly.
I wouldn't be riding until you get straightened around. The Easy Care Rx are great rehab boots and padding changed daily using children's foam playground mats.

I hope this helps you understand better what's going on and why he's sore.
 
Wow! MissyClare! Thanks so much for all that! I had to read some of it two, three, four times to get my head around it (complex stuff) but I think I have a better picture. But I also feel a wee bit stupid as those pics you've so carefully helped me with are from a fair few weeks back (although that doesn't change his foot situ), I had them pulled as soon as I realised how bad they were & padded his feet for 9days (poulticed & then with nappies & vet wrap). Then the vet/farrier recommended we shod him again... Although he was footy to begin with he's become progressively more comfortable in his new shoes. Although after seeing the xrays, they too will be pulled (hopefully for good if I can get my own way) in three weeks, after giving his poor feet a chance to settle...
Would anyone wish to see pics of his feet taken a week ago? (soles are markedly improved even since then) x
 
Okay, thought I'd update as I'm starting to have a wee bit of a wobble...

My lad is due to have his light-steel shoes off on Thursday to try out these plastic imprint ones with gel pads... My current farrier seems to think it's a large possibility that he could be in discomfort again :( I'm worried as he's doing SO well in his metals at the mo, improving every day, that I'm nervous...

Farrier says it's for the best though & will give his feet the best chance of healing & growing, where metals won't... Says he will need Bute though still incase he's footsore & his metals don't come off easily :l
Am I doing him more harm than good? Just needing some reassurance :( I so SO SO want him to become sound & I can't afford imprints forever :(
xx
 
L&B said:
Okay, thought I'd update as I'm starting to have a wee bit of a wobble...

My lad is due to have his light-steel shoes off on Thursday to try out these plastic imprint ones with gel pads... My current farrier seems to think it's a large possibility that he could be in discomfort again :( I'm worried as he's doing SO well in his metals at the mo, improving every day, that I'm nervous...

Farrier says it's for the best though & will give his feet the best chance of healing & growing, where metals won't... Says he will need Bute though still incase he's footsore & his metals don't come off easily :l
Am I doing him more harm than good? Just needing some reassurance :( I so SO SO want him to become sound & I can't afford imprints forever :(
xx
Click to expand...

The only reason he might be sore is because when you pull his shoes they may cause some trauma. But this may not happen at all, and if it does, then it will only be for a few days. The imprints will actually give more support and protection to his feet than metal shoes will. He may even be instantly more comfortable. The thing to ensure however, is that there are no abscesses brewing before putting them on, as they cover up more of the sole than normal shoes do. It is important to keep them well picked out as stones can easily get lodged underneath. They are harder to pick out than normal shoes, but you do get used to it. Let us know how it goes.
 
Wagtail said:
The only reason he might be sore is because when you pull his shoes they may cause some trauma. But this may not happen at all, and if it does, then it will only be for a few days. The imprints will actually give more support and protection to his feet than metal shoes will. He may even be instantly more comfortable. The thing to ensure however, is that there are no abscesses brewing before putting them on, as they cover up more of the sole than normal shoes do. It is important to keep them well picked out as stones can easily get lodged underneath. They are harder to pick out than normal shoes, but you do get used to it. Let us know how it goes.
Click to expand...

Wagtail! My little ray of light, lol! Thanks for taking the time to comment again :)
Thankyou. I will keep everything crossed and I hope to the powers that be he can do it as comfortably as possible!! Noted re: abcesses/stones.
Will let you know how it goes & will get pics/videos too xx
 
If the shoe pulling is done carefully it shouldnt hurt, but there is only a tiny wee margin for where the nails go in the first place before they hit live tissue so they need to come out at the same angle they went in.

He will be ok, and you are doing the best for him in the long run :)
 
You can make shoe pulling less traumatic by removing the nails individually and keeping packed dirt in the hoof while doing it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top