Laminitis paranoia

[SO1]

I know so many people who struggled with laminitis with natives and cobs. Including youngsters resulting in me developing a paranoia about Bert getting laminitis.

I know 80% is hormonal and Bert has been tested. His insulin levels are within the accepted range at 13% which is well below the 30%. His adiponectin was 9.4. With 10 being ideal and 8 being the danger area. I don't know anything about adiponectin but from google research it seems like this can be increased by exercise and he was on field rest at the time. He is now being bought back into work.

I know being slim reduces the risk but the only way to be 100% prevent laminitis is a grass free life which is very tricky to find if on livery.

Homey never got laminitis in the 15 years I had him and I was not always as careful with his weight and grass intake when he was younger and living out as I should have been but got away with it. I did muzzle him a lot when he got older and he was on soaked hay. Occasionally he used to get his muzzle off but he was quite good with keeping it on once I got the have a heart best friend muzzle. It did used to rub his chin and I ended up having to pad it everywhere but it was ok. He then got the flexible filly muzzle that was better.

Bert put on weight whilst on field rest when we moved to the rested field in January. Up to that point his weight was really good with no muzzle and normal hay.

He has been on soaked hay for a month now and the flexible filly muzzle and back in work for last two weeks and lost a bit of weight. The problem with flexible filly muzzle is despite spending nearly every evening and weekend adjusting it for the last 3 weeks I can't get it to fit properly and it is rubbing the front of his nose quite badly. Three other horses use the muzzle on the yard with no problems fitting or rubbing.

He is eating out of the sides and that I think is causing the rubs on the nose. I would not mind him eating out of the sides if it didn't rub his nose as he is loosing weight. I also am concerned eating out the sides is going to cause an issue with his neck.

I have bought the thinline headcollar and smaller size muzzle thinking that might help. I managed to fit it so he couldn't eat out of the sides but that placed the hole into a position where he couldn't eat out of the hole when I tested him grazing. I asked Yard manager who had fitted the muzzles on other horses and she couldn't not get it to fit either to get the hole in the right place if fiited to prevent him eating out the sides.

In the end we gave up and I put the cob sized muzzle back on to the thinline head collar and he is a side grazer for the time being.

I have bought the thinline padding and a merino sheepskin pad to try and help the rubbing but that makes the thinline nose band tight and probably worse.

I started off with Homey's leather headcollar that I used when Homey wore the thinline muzzle and Bert broke the cable ties on that. So I swapped to the horsewear field safe headcollar used by the two other horses. He has not broken cable ties on that but side eats and bad rubbing on nose.

I then ordered thinline headcollar and pony sized muzzle, the thinline padding and a merino wool noseband pad and tried lots of variations of fittings with no success.

Then on Wednesday a new horse joined the field and we have lots of rain forecast so he has had the muzzle off to meet new horse for last few days who he now absolutely adores so meet and greet gone well. His new nickname is velcro as he is following new horse who is huge around everywhere. With an extra horse in the field there will be less grass eventually.

Also his muzzle was getting full of mud so eating out of the hole was not possible because it was clogged with mud and a mud clogg several inch thick the size of a palm was in his muzzle probably due to side eating technique.

I know even if I get Bert super slim there is a risk of laminitis if he has too much grass. He is not massively overweight at the moment he has lost weight the last two weeks now back in work.

Today I have also tested him in YO ultimate muzzle she uses on one of her horses Bert couldn't work out how to get grass through that hole. I also tried Homey's have a heart best friend muzzle where the hole had got worn quite big and Bert managed to get grass with that. It needs a bit of work to get the fit right with that and new padding and will probably rub the chin like it did on Homey. But I will order one for Bert.

First 2 photos Bert weight now and 3rd photo Bert weight end of August as a comparison. Bert is rising 6 now and was 5 and 2.5 months in August so expected to fill out now. With all the rain and now lots of sun I expect the grass will flush in the next weeks so his muzzle will be back on Tues not great due to the rubbing but he will get another break from the muzzle as another horse who has been on box rest will be reintroduced to the herd probably in the next few weeks. I will also spend time getting him used to the have a heart muzzle and work on fitting that in next few weeks so he can have that. I will order a new one for him.

I expect there are a lot of natives a lot fatter than Bert out on grass unmuzzled at the moment and I maybe overly paranoid. He only goes out for up to 8 hours a day and in at night all year round.

 

[Sandstone1]

Try a different type of muzzle? The one you have may not suit him. Strip graze?

 

[HopOnTrot]

I’ve had to stop using muzzles as my mare is using risky behaviour to remove them.

Last summer I sectioned my field up, daughters pony goes into a new section to graze it down, then mine joins when it’s short, it meant my field wasn’t over grazed, daughters pony got more grass and mine had less.

Mine has EMS and has for 5 years but never progressed to laminitis.

 

[Goldenstar]

Can you gradually reduce hay in the stable and get him eating straw .
I have Fatties and the game changer has been replacing some forage with straw .I have to get top chop zero which is quite expensive .
Mine have to be desperate , slight overstatement , to eat the straw chop but it taught me they eat forage in my case a low energy haylege because they like it not need it. I now give haylege more like you used to feed hard food in small amounts and they always have straw . i will find the stables with no piece of haylege left and straw still in .
My horses eat because they like to there’s no getting away from it .
Exercise is also really important the more you work them the easier it is to manage weight.The nights are drawing out and it’s easier to get work in .

I do use muzzles and have one who I really struggle to get comfortable in a muzzle and I worry about the lack of social interaction they cause .They also get them off .
Horses need to mutually groom it reduces their cortisol levels that’s a big worry for me using muzzles .

It’s not easy .
He is a very nice looking horse , how big is he ? He is too fat to be going into summer your right to be on it .

 

[Highmileagecob]

Take a look at the Tough 1 Easy Breathe. It was made before the Ultimate (not sure if same company makes them) and sits a lot lower on the face. It has it's own headcollar, which you may need to add bits to, but is easy to position for grazing. My cob lived in one 24/7 for years, until his teeth became an issue and he now has to take his chance. It did initially rub over the nose, but I bought a cheap neoprene kid's beach suit from the bargain store and cut neoprene strips to sew over the seams that rubbed. Old cob learned to scrub his head along the ground to open the quick release velcro, so that needed a hole punching through it and a cable tie to stop him doing it. Good luck. I share your pain of persuading a native to trickle feed.

 

[SO1]

Can you gradually reduce hay in the stable and get him eating straw .
I have Fatties and the game changer has been replacing some forage with straw .I have to get top chop zero which is quite expensive .
Mine have to be desperate , slight overstatement , to eat the straw chop but it taught me they eat forage in my case a low energy haylege because they like it not need it. I now give haylege more like you used to feed hard food in small amounts and they always have straw . i will find the stables with no piece of haylege left and straw still in .
My horses eat because they like to there’s no getting away from it .
Exercise is also really important the more you work them the easier it is to manage weight.The nights are drawing out and it’s easier to get work in .

I do use muzzles and have one who I really struggle to get comfortable in a muzzle and I worry about the lack of social interaction they cause .They also get them off .
Horses need to mutually groom it reduces their cortisol levels that’s a big worry for me using muzzles .

It’s not easy .
He is a very nice looking horse , how big is he ? He is too fat to be going into summer your right to be on it .

He is 13.2 and at the moment not getting enough exercise because of saddle fit and he can't be lunged so he limited to what he can do which is about 12 minutes trot in each session. I can't get get the saddler until 15 March. I am hoping at that point he will be able to canter and jump again.

Unfortunately as I am on livery I can't strip graze or do much beyond muzzling or keeping him on box rest to reduce grass in take.

He is quite a whizzy pony and he seems to want to get going with cantering.

His flexible filly muzzle goes back on tomorrow as the mud will have dried up by then he will have had 5 day to get used to the new horse even if eating out the side better than nothing. I have ordered the best friend have a heart muzzle which Homey had and he seems to be able to use that with the large hole so think it is matter of getting used to it with the bigger hole then putting the one with the smaller hole on so it done gradually.
.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I agree with GS, feed plain oat straw chaff in large quantities, overnight. They will eat it if they are hungry and it is just as good a protection against developing ulcers as any other forage. I don't use TCZ though, it's too tasty. I use Honeychop or Halleys' plain oat straw chaff.

 

[HopOnTrot]

Top Chop Zero is plain oat straw too, if mine is in for long periods I put that with some Lite and Lean and carrots in a slow feeder.

I also use the trickle nets forage calculator a lot to check my amounts.

 

[SEL]

I know the pain of muzzling and all I can recommend is trying different types. If he's in overnight then mixing straw with hay helps (although soaking has always helped mine) but for me on herd turnout I needed to muzzle

I have also fully clipped one of my natives. She must have had a coat of about 400g and the blubber only really shifted when that came off.

I have two looking fine coming out of winter and one who lives on fresh air and is fat. She's non ridden so I'm walking her out in hand as much as possible too, but once they move fields the muzzle is a necessity

 

[Goldenstar]

I agree with GS, feed plain oat straw chaff in large quantities, overnight. They will eat it if they are hungry and it is just as good a protection against developing ulcers as any other forage. I don't use TCZ though, it's too tasty. I use Honeychop or Halleys' plain oat straw chaff.

I have found I have to use TCZ or they don’t eat enough of it .
Forage is not protective against ulcers unless they eat it , honey chop just ended up as an expensive addition to their bedding with my lot .
It’s taken a good while for me to crack a system for using straw chop with my lot but it’s working now .
They do beg for haylege like large Labradors I find it hard to not give in to them.

 

[maya2008]

I have always used a bucket muzzle, bought a size up with fur sewn around the top to prevent rubs. Checked location of teeth vs the hole on the bottom and adjusted if necessary (lots of side grazers have an overbite so the hole is in the wrong place for them to be able to eat). Never caused an issue.

Your grass danger spike will be April/May. I would sort the muzzle issue by then, and do something like 50:50 hay/straw (or just soak the hay lots with a small holed net) in the stable. I have attached nets to the ceiling before so they swing and are harder to get the food from. Takes a lot longer to get the forage out!

 

[tristars]

i would wary of the muzzle if he is eating out of one side, he could bite the inside of the cheek using his jaw in a distorted way.

he looks a bit droopy as if he needs work to tone him up, and i would be in panic mode about his weight, he looks far too well to me!, now please don`t take it the wrong way, just hoping you can find a way around the issues, its only about 8 weeks or so til the richest grass of the year

 

[SEL]

I think the grass this year could run away with us. I walked my resting fields this morning and although they are totally waterlogged you can't see the puddles because of how long the grass is already. They only came off the big field in mid Dec and it was looking sorry for itself then - its now a luminous green and you can't see the churned up bits any more.

I had the weigh tape out on Wednesday and I need to really crack on with my 'live on fresh air' horse but there's no way she's going to escape spring without a muzzle.

 

[SO1]

i would wary of the muzzle if he is eating out of one side, he could bite the inside of the cheek using his jaw in a distorted way.

he looks a bit droopy as if he needs work to tone him up, and i would be in panic mode about his weight, he looks far too well to me!, now please don`t take it the wrong way, just hoping you can find a way around the issues, its only about 8 weeks or so til the richest grass of the year

He has hardly been in work since I got him back in August due to either lameness and being on field rest or saddle issues. I cannot work him loads due to gradually having to increase his fitness now can do 12 minutes in trot in each session and have to be careful as well due to saddle fit not to too much until that is resolved.

Very difficult to get an appointment for saddler especially as I work full time and my instructor who can stand in for me if I can't get the day off work can only do Tue/Thurs/Friday. My saddler seems to like Wednesdays which I can never get off work unless give a very long notice period. It is now looking like I need to work on 15th now which is date for saddler so going to have to ask my instructor if she can step in for me.

I am definitely in panic mode about his weight and desperately trying to sort out a muzzle for him that he can use. It is quite challenging due to my working hours I don't get to the yard till 7.30 and yard shuts at 9pm so been spend all available spare time on trying to get muzzles to fit.

He was weighed and perfect weight before Xmas and things have got out of control since he went on field rest and moved fields at the same time. I immediately put him on soaked hay at that point and been trying to get muzzle to fit since 1 Feb.

 

[ester]

I do think you just need to experiment with muzzles and at least there’s quite a lot of choice now. F was really prob to rubbing and we were best with a shires deluxe without the head padding (or it would slip off ears) and with added dead sheep on the muzzle-throatlash strap.
The dinky didn’t rub but he worked out how to eat it

 

[tristars]

i fully understand and am not in any way being critical, you are doing your best and it shines through, its a constant battle to find the right thing to do and fit it all in with everything else

i too have a couple that are in constant weight monitoring mode.

hopefully you can get the saddle sorted soon


its a long road to getting it all sorted, making the right decisions, finding the time to do it all, the weather has been awful, dark nights all that to factor into the stress

 

[Goldenstar]

Top Chop Zero is plain oat straw too, if mine is in for long periods I put that with some Lite and Lean and carrots in a slow feeder.

I also use the trickle nets forage calculator a lot to check my amounts.

They favour TCZ with Apple and carrot tastes . Honeychop is plain ( I think it’s a badly named product ) They also do something to TCZ to make it a softer product .

 

[m1stify]

have you tried a greenguard muzzle? If you get the headcollar that goes with it there is a strap that goes down the middle of the head which stops any twisting of the muzzle and eating out the sides. Mine didn't work properly without the special headcollar. There is a 'breaking in' period where there may be rubs and I then pad that area but that has stopped and now she never gets rubbed at all. A few rubs at the start is better IMO than laminitis so I just had to go through it. Its not ideal I know but the only option I have at livery.

 

[Orangehorse]

I regarded laminitis as a "leaky gut" issue, so always fed with added digestive stuff = whatever it is. I had a pony that I put a muzzle on and he just went to the nearest fence post, hooked the muzzle over, and pulled. Lasted about 1 minute.

So tiny paddock, soaked hay, exercise.

 

[gallopingby]

Smaller paddock would seem the way to go. Can’t you fence a bit off for him with electric tape? It’s difficult but the grass isn’t going to stop growing! Either we have too much or not enough.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

They favour TCZ with Apple and carrot tastes . Honeychop is plain ( I think it’s a badly named product ) They also do something to TCZ to make it a softer product .

Honeychop is the brand name, not a description of their plain chaff! They do several varieties. The 'Light'n' Healthy' turned both of ours loopy, so I didn't think that was well named either

 

[SO1]

Smaller paddock would seem the way to go. Can’t you fence a bit off for him with electric tape? It’s difficult but the grass isn’t going to stop growing! Either we have too much or not enough.

Unfortunately I am on livery and we are not allowed to do things like that. It is quite limited options there are some small paddocks but they are for YO horses or the rehab livery business.

5 horses need to be muzzled but unfortunately they cannot all be in the same field so we can't have a good doer field at the moment.

The vet wants him out as much as possible because of his stifle issue last year but I could ask the YO if he could go on to rehab livery and just go for out for a couple hours and be on box rest the rest of the day with soaked hay.

I am hoping that I will be able to find a muzzle that suits him and he stays sound enough to be ridden or lunged. We do have a water treadmill and horse walker as well. Homey used the water treadmill as part of his management but Bert is difficult on the water treadmill and reared so has to be sedated to use it and the staff who normally advocate for using it don't really want him on there.

He can't go on the walker as vet doesn't want him on any abrasive surfaces until he is shod on 13th. Had to wait for farrier as he needs to be sedated by vet as he is never been shod before and can be nervous with farrier.

He was meant to be a nice easy youngster after loosing Homey. He is actually a very forward easy ride. It just been difficult with the lameness and saddler. It is so hard to get saddlers out one of my friends couldn't get appointment till May and has been trying since January to get appointment after her saddle fitter moved away. I had to wait 10 weeks to get a saddle appointment with my saddler. I was lucky this time I only have to wait a month to get an appointment.

 

[SEL]

I wouldn't have a young horse in the stable for hours on end. That won't help his brain or his stifle.

Can you spend some time with the staff working on getting him more comfortable with the treadmill? Clicker training is great in those situations.

I find with the farrier that the more you do yourself with their feet (running rasp round, banging with hammer etc) then the better they get. I also have a likit to hand.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I would use hoof boots and pads to avoid the abrasive surfaces in line with the vet advice, and then walk in-hand.

Mim and I used to do miles of hand walking and she really benefited from it. She’s so much more confident, and she really developed common sense out of it.

I would also ride bareback. Mim is the most difficult horse to fit a saddle to that I’ve ever had. Shape-wise, she’s a nightmare. I rode bareback and also bought a barefoot saddle for her, until we found a saddle that fitted nicely.

Mim and I also do in-hand work in the school, which she loves and is very good exercise.

I avoid too many circles so we use the full length of the school and a walk with her, if that makes sense.

Walking in hand and schooling in hand is also brilliant exercise for me. So dual benefit!

 

[Sandstone1]

Unfortunately I am on livery and we are not allowed to do things like that. It is quite limited options there are some small paddocks but they are for YO horses or the rehab livery business.

5 horses need to be muzzled but unfortunately they cannot all be in the same field so we can't have a good doer field at the moment.

The vet wants him out as much as possible because of his stifle issue last year but I could ask the YO if he could go on to rehab livery and just go for out for a couple hours and be on box rest the rest of the day with soaked hay.

I am hoping that I will be able to find a muzzle that suits him and he stays sound enough to be ridden or lunged. We do have a water treadmill and horse walker as well. Homey used the water treadmill as part of his management but Bert is difficult on the water treadmill and reared so has to be sedated to use it and the staff who normally advocate for using it don't really want him on there.

He can't go on the walker as vet doesn't want him on any abrasive surfaces until he is shod on 13th. Had to wait for farrier as he needs to be sedated by vet as he is never been shod before and can be nervous with farrier.

He was meant to be a nice easy youngster after loosing Homey. He is actually a very forward easy ride. It just been difficult with the lameness and saddler. It is so hard to get saddlers out one of my friends couldn't get appointment till May and has been trying since January to get appointment after her saddle fitter moved away. I had to wait 10 weeks to get a saddle appointment with my saddler. I was lucky this time I only have to wait a month to get an appointment.

You could use hoof boots instead of getting him shod. You would not have to sedate him then. There are lots of options for hoof boots now.

 

[cauda equina]

I agree that hoof boots are worth trying, and how about a Christ Lammfelle sheepskin saddle?
They fit anything, and I felt very secure in mine and hacked in it for months

 

[SEL]

Like @LadyGascoyne has said walking in hand works wonders. My PSSM mare is no longer ridden but we walk in hand, do poles in hand etc and I can see the difference if I slacken off (she takes good doer to the extreme). Scoot boots for us.

 

[gallopingby]

I agree that hoof boots are worth trying, and how about a Christ Lammfelle sheepskin saddle?
They fit anything, and I felt very secure in mine and hacked in it for months

Never heard of a Christ Lammfelle sheepskin before but the videos look amazing. I have ridden in a thorn pad and didn’t rate it at all.

 

[cauda equina]

Honestly the CLs are brilliant
I've also got a bareback pad of some sort (I've forgotten the make) and while it was ok the CL is so much more secure and supportive

 

[SO1]

Never heard of a Christ Lammfelle sheepskin before but the videos look amazing. I have ridden in a thorn pad and didn’t rate it at all.

I was thinking of getting a thorn pad as they sounded good but maybe wont.