Laminitis set back :-(

[MontysKeeper]

Hello,

My horse came down with Lami beginning of May. Has had it before 3 years ago but have moved in to a new area and grass is so much richer at new yard, even though its short as anything, so thought he would be ok!

Had him tested for cushings and EMS. Cushings negative and EMS positive. Was hard to do the EMS test as they have no food for 4 hours and then you have to get aload of glucose in them before the blood is taken!

My horse was in regular work, not over weight and is 16HH. Turned 19 in April.

Currently still off the grass as although he is sound and was sound after 2 weeks of box rest, I am just being over cautious and not rushing to put him back out. When he does he will be penned in a his field that has been munched down by another horse

He is on 20 tablets twice a day of Metformin for 6 weeks only and then will have another blood test after he has completed the course, as vet doesn't think he will need to be on it forever. That was £130, so not too bad but only time will tell when I put him back out!

Buggar has escaped from his stable a few times and galloped off up to the fields and managed to have a little nibble of the grass before ive got there and his stayed sound, so theres hope yet!

Have been lucky with no rotation. Brought him in off the grass as soon as he was a little footy though and got vet out a couple of days later. He just looked uncomfortable to me, which isn't like him.

Such a horrid disease but I'm glad I have an answer as to why he gets it now and at least I can work with my vet to try and stop it ever coming back! Its just hard work and a lot of patience.

Hang in there and hope your neddy makes a full recovery!

 

[Tyssandi]

Checked pulses this morning. They weren't there so I let her out for one hour. She walked absolutely fine. Brought her in and could feel the pulses again so it's definitely there.
Going to ring the vet on Monday but for now will just keep her in on soaked hay.

Tyssandi that sounds good for your horse. Is the maximum four hours forever? I don't know what Roo will be allowed to have long term

No I think it is only till the grass season stops say end September then he will go back out full time again till next April

 

[ester]

Yes you will need to do the tests separately I think because one should be in low stress conditions and one fasting.

Fwiw in the last pic I think you posted of her her shape would have still worried me a bit too and she definitely doesn't really seem to be coping with any grass intake at the moment so I think it would be best to dot the is and cross the ts so to speak.

 

[RubysGold]

Thanks for all the info.

Ester this is my most recent picture. She is now looking the best I've ever known her. Can easily feel all her ribs and her neck is so much smaller now.


I am very grateful for everyones comments on here. I am so worried that she won't get better, will try anything. Will speak to the vet about the tests

 

[ester]

Yes, I do mean her shape rather than her weight per se and I do think she looks better since on the pergolide . She is tricky because I know she has always had her neck etc even when she was younger. I'm just cautious that you shouldn't carry on fighting a losing battle if there is something else going on that she can maybe be helped with medically Def have a chat to your vet and see what they think .

 

[RubysGold]

Today, a livery asked me how she is (so it wasn't me who brought up the conversation) and I was told to just put her to sleep. That she has no life and that at her age it's not fair to put her through it.
It is none of her business! :-( this is hard enough without having people think they have the right to do that!

I took her for a short walk today (around the yard) and she is a bit sore still. Going to ring the vets on Monday morning

 

[WandaMare]

Today, a livery asked me how she is (so it wasn't me who brought up the conversation) and I was told to just put her to sleep. That she has no life and that at her age it's not fair to put her through it.
It is none of her business! :-( this is hard enough without having people think they have the right to do that!

I took her for a short walk today (around the yard) and she is a bit sore still. Going to ring the vets on Monday morning

What a completely ridiculous thing to say, I feel sorry for this person's horse if it ever gets ill. A lot of people don't understand that recovery from laminitis takes time, and will often have a very positive outcome with the right care. Its her ignorance, I wouldn't take any notice.

 

[ester]

TBF I don't think it is a completely ridiculous thing to say if you cannot get her metabolism under control so that she can eat grass, or provide a large turnout area without grass and feed hay you do have to consider quality of life and this mare is 6 months post the initial laminitis now. She still looks like a metabolic horse, older than her years despite pergolide at the current levels.

I don't think all avenues have been explored yet so it wouldn't be a decision I would be making now but it might need thinking about if things don't improve. When laminitis is accompanied my one or more metabolic issues how better they can actually get can be limited if they are not really responding to medication. It is something I have given a lot of thought as my chap gets older and if he cannot safely have an happy retirement in the field with friends I would let him go.

 

[Procrastination]

Can I just piggy back on this thread and ask, when you say you feel pulses do you mean on the fetlock/Pastern?

Reason I ask is because with my mare I can quite often feel a strong-ish (not bounding) pulse at the top of her cannon bone just below her knee, but I can never feel them lower down the leg near her hooves. I just wonder whether I ought to be concerned about the pulses higher up or if it's OK for them to be more easily felt higher up the leg. She is a good weight, not cresty and doesn't have fat pads. She comes in during the day just to be on the safe side anyway though. Doesnt have any heat in her hooves either.

 

[ester]

This sums up the various locations for taking digital pulses (top of cannon too high )

http://www.ironfreehoof.com/equine-digital-pulses.html

 

[Procrastination]

The only reason I monitor it at the top of the cannon is because that's the only place I can ever feel it 😂 That's why I'm wondering if it's ok if I can feel it there but not lower down, ie. Is it the same red flag as being able to feel a pulse at the fetlock?

 

[ester]

Yes, it gets weaker the further it goes down, which is why you can feel it at the cannon.
I have only ever felt a digital pulse on Frank when we have a problem, ie abscess or once when he had been galloping round a hard field before his feet were ready. I'm going to have to go and prod his cannon bone to check later aren't it!

 

[Procrastination]

Checking pulses is strangely addictive not sure how many hours I've wasted now in total sitting in front of my girls front legs trying to feel a pulse in her fetlock....sad times!

 

[JillA]

Today, a livery asked me how she is (so it wasn't me who brought up the conversation) and I was told to just put her to sleep. That she has no life and that at her age it's not fair to put her through it.
It is none of her business! :-( this is hard enough without having people think they have the right to do that!

It was the old way of thinking - a horse who got laminitis very rarely ever fully recovered and if they did they were always liable to get it again. Thankfully hoof care and veterinary medicine have moved on since the 1960's

 

[Pingypo]

Hi, our horse has also suffered from laminitis - i know how you feel, it's so hard to get it just right. Every case of lamintis is different except one thing that i swear by is the type and amount of grass. This is not scientifically correct so do not quote me but i often think of laminitis to be similar to diabetes in humans. Short bursts of high sugar foods (grass) can cause damage. Instead, a steady flow of low sugar foods is much safer and provides the body with a steady continuous release of sugar. Even if your horse comes in to hay most of the day, 2 hours of green spring grass could tip her over. If this is possible for you, make her a paddock that consists of long, mature grass that has been grazed enough to eat the tops off the grass (by a healthy horse) or even topped or cut but horses do a better job! Mature grass is not producing large amounts of sugar as it is not 'stressed'. The scruffier and less green the grass is the better! It is more natural feedstuff for horses, does not have as much sugar but contains enough goodness for a horse. As your girl is a bit older you could give her a vitamin lick to ensure she is getting all she needs. Sometimes laminitics lack in some essential vitamins. It is so mich trial and error but if this helps, our horse has a small starvation paddock which he goes into all day with a pile of hay and dried nettles, he then goes out into a big field at night which has scruffy, munched grass but still about 2 inches long in places. This means he never stands with nothing to eat and never has sudden rushes of sugar just a steady flow. I hope this helps!!! All just my opinion though 😊

 

[Tyssandi]

Ruby don't listen to that horrid person telling you to PTS. NOTB your caring for her along with your vet, this illness is hard enough without people in the gallery shouting out.
MY boy is out 2 hrs since Wednesday on the ponys strip and so far so good, my intentions eventually will be 2 hours out 1 hour in and 2 hours out. Max 4 hours out through the summer with 9lbs hay to spread through the rest of the time.

You need to find what works for Ruby and only her, I decided to have a hr in in the middle to allow things to settle before going out again. Lami is such a horrid ailment

 

[ester]

I don't think they were being intentionally horrid, this mare has had lami/been sore, and mostly in a stable for 6 months to me that isn't enough quality of life long term if RG can't get her metabolic issues more under control.

RG is there anywhere you can set up a grass free turnout area for her?

 

[_HP_]

I agree that 6 months is a long time to get laminitis under control but not that the horse should be PTS and think it's very rude of someone to suggest that.
Then horse is not crippled and does have a quality of life and her owner is doing everything she can to solve her lameness.
OP...I would definitely ask your vet about testing for EMS and a cushings again. Laminitis shouldn't take this long to get over so the cause has obviously not been addressed properly.
It could be the Cushing's isn't controlled properly and is driving the laminitis, or it could be the diet/grass combo or it could be some rotation that hasn't been corrected.
This is where being barefoot is better....shoes mean that the hooves aren't trimmed for at least 5/6 weeks and a laminitics hoof can grow much quicker than a normal hoof , especially at the heel and this can affect rotation.
If there is definitely no rotation, then I would really look into a dry lot situation for her....at least for now

 

[brighteyes]

I really would get her levels tested again, and if they are ok query whether it is just cushings or whether she has EMS/IR going on too.

If she has laminitis, she has EMS
I would be looking at getting tested for that as well as rechecking her acth levels. This will give you a guide as to how sensitive to the grass she is and help you to work out how much she can cope with.

Laminitis has three main origins - endocrine, opposing limb compensation and toxins. Each one is pretty simple to rule out. If it's not due to weight-bearing overload from injury to the opposing limb or toxins from retained placenta or other infection leading to sepsis, then it's endocrine and you are largely fighting an invisible and moving target, since you can't measure and compensate for fluctuating blood composition.

 

[brighteyes]

And I'm really sorry to hear this. I've served my time with Cushing's and EMS related laminitis. It's heartbreaking and frustrating in equal measure.

 

[RubysGold]

Just a little update. I rang the vet Monday Morning. My usual vet is very busy so sent out a lady who has been working with her lately. This lady must have been in her 60s/70s and was very knowledgeable. I like her a lot! Lovely vet

She has taken some blood to retest her cushings. She doesn't think the cushings is fully under control as Roo is still so fluffy and should by now have her summer coat. (I just assumed the lack of daylight, as she isn't out, was responsible) should get those results soon. We spoke about the insulin test and she agrees that should be our next stage and that they normally fast overnight for that.

Roo walked out fairly soundly and the vet wasn't too concerned. She felt the pulses and said that although they are there, she has to concentrate to find them so that is a good thing (I find them very easily because I know exactly where hers is and feel it very often!)

She stayed a while to talk about our grazing. Its not ideal at all Roo was in the massive field with lots of grass and stayed sound those first few weeks. We then put her in a small paddock and the vet said the younger grass is higher in sugar. She said the clover isn't good, and we are over run with the stuff :/ so she says the field with more grass is probably better for her as the grass is now high and she should be able to avoid the clover. But we have ragwort (which I do my best to remove!), and she pointed out that the trees look to be sycamore :| I don't want to move yards but its really not looking ideal for us anymore
Just waiting on results now, one step at a time

 

[ester]

I'm pleased you are getting her retested as I do think that is best plan and that vet explained about the hair etc. I find it difficult to explain what I am seeing from a pic that is still suggesting metabolic stuff to me.

Grazing is tricky, as longer grass if often better but difficult with muzzles so it might depend how adept Ruby is at using hers? But of course if she is int he situation that a meds tweak will help then the grass will become less problematic.
Also IME it depends a bit on your soil type. Once it stops raining here the grass pretty much stops dead because it is so well draining whereas at mums on somerset clay the grass will grow and be more problematic all summer. One step at a time though but maybe give some consideration possible improvement set ups and other yards, though if settled it is tricky moving an oldie.

Do you have the laminitis app which follows the weather and will give you a guide as to when are really bad times and you could perhaps keep her in those days?

 

[Toffee44]

Haven't read whole thread. But we are having issues on my yard. The grass has gone mad. The two bare fatty paddocks are bright green.

My mare has a crest for the first time ever, she was abandoning her feed by the gate for the grass! She is in one of the fatty paddocks. She's out of work for lameness so bought her in, first time she's had a crest build in 6 years.

Two more ponies in for similar reasons.

 

[Clannad48]

Do you have the laminitis app which follows the weather and will give you a guide as to when are really bad times and you could perhaps keep her in those days?

ester, please could you give me a shove in the direction of the laminitis app. Thanks

 

[ester]

of course, I think atm it is only available on iphone and android not windows.

http://www.laminitis-risk.com/

 

[Clannad48]

Many thanks ester, we have a laminitic pony and my daughter has an iphone so this will be invaluable.

 

[ester]

It's not always high when you think it will be and obviously isn't infallible but seems a useful tool and is pretty area specific- links to nearest weather station.

 

[Toffee44]

Did not know such a thing existed.

Ester I think you should start a new thread with this app. Its not just laminetics that need this info, is with fluctulating good doers would benefit from this!!

 

[ester]

Ah sorry, I have posted it a few times I'll pop one up again as a good-doer thread. Frank has never had lami and fingers crossed. I only use it intermittently when I am not sure and curious where we are with it although the grass in front of me tells me a fair bit too . But I do think it is a useful extra tool to have and it is interesting on some facebook groups how different the results are when lots of people post their current even in similar areas of the country.

 

[Toffee44]

The crest my pony has grown this week has made me anxious about the whole thing now. Good doer but shes never had a crest even when turned out all last summer on 20acres.