Laminitis surge

[Hallo2012]

Same here - I appreciate an instructor isn't going to want to teach me at 5/6am, but if that's when it's cool enough for me and my horse, then that is when I am riding.

One of the liveries at my yard keeps her horse out 24/7 all year, he is a fabulous weight, in a good amount of work and fit with a hint of rib. And yet judges at shows won't place him because he lacks enough 'show condition'.

in the 38+ temps last year i offered clients to be there at 7am or 7-8pm and I would work mine around that as i know me and them would cope............ Many people did not want get up early or stay late to ride in the cooler temps! Some people just love an excuse.

 

[SEL]

A propos of this thread: As I was poo picking round my ponies' bare and weedy track this morning i wondered, is there less incidence of laminitis and EMS for instance in hotter countries with less grazing, Spain (southern) for instance, Desert areas, dusty plains, arrid hillsides? It is much easier to control the diet and weight of a horse or pony and allow adequate space for them to wander round if they are not kept on areas of over rich grass. It may not look so nice to the outside observer and I am sure livery yard owners would like to pride themselves on the quality of their grass acreage, but is it it really any good for their clients? so many people complain that they do not have control over the fencing/stripping of their paddocks at livery so end up keeping their horses stabled all day, having had to stable them all day in the winter to "preserve" the quality of the fields for the summer!!!

Also, re weight management. It seems to me that many horse owners rely too much on a school/manege for exercising their horses. Nothing gets a horse fitter and leaner than long, slow exercise over different terrain, as a base, interspersed with cantering when suitable. I am a great admirer of NikkiMarriet (sorry about spelling!) who hacks her high class dressage horse for miles and takes him to the gallops. I appreciate that modern times and fast traffic has made riding on many roads an absolute horror but if you are lucky enough to be able to box up for a lesson or a show then surely you can also go to suitable hacking areas. I am now going to be rather blunt here: Time, many will say they do not have the time to go for longer hacks on a regular basis, well, find some one who will do it for you! TBH, if we (collectively) can't do what is right for our horses perhaps we should think twice about owning them.

Around here its harder than it should be to box out to bridlepaths. Literally 10 minutes up the road from me (driving) is a lovely set of bridleways but nowhere for lorries to park. They've got barriers over all the parking areas to prevent anything other than cars parking there. I asked and was told it was 'for security' aka the council don't want travellers there. Local hacking is ok for an hour or so but during the week there is a lot of construction traffic due to the amount of housebuilding in the area, which doesn't make the single track roads enjoyable. Its very frustrating.

 

[criso]

This is new isn't it? Horses used to be too expensive to justify unless you wanted to ride, but we've had many years of them costing peanuts and certainly on my yard there were plenty of impulse purchases which are now pasture ornaments.

Not necessarily. When I was young most yards didn't have surfaced or floodlit arenas. That meant all the ponies were only ridden at weekends and half term during the winter.

Summer you would ride after school but not every day. School holidays they would be ridden most days for hours at a time.

There weren't many adults at the yard I was at but any working would be in the same situation but without school holidays and it wasn't the sort of yard where you paid someone to exercise your horse.

 

[SEL]

Not necessarily. When I was young most yards didn't have surfaced or floodlit arenas. That meant all the ponies were only ridden at weekends and half term during the winter.

Summer you would ride after school but not every day. School holidays they would be ridden most days for hours at a time.

There weren't many adults at the yard I was at but any working would be in the same situation but without school holidays and it wasn't the sort of yard where you paid someone to exercise your horse.

Similar in the village where I was a kid - all the ponies were out in 2 big fields but the grass was pretty rough.

Quite a few of them didn't like walking on the roads and would try and walk on the verge or people's front lawns so I wonder if they were a bit footsore. I think anything with full blown laminitis just got shot and obviously we didn't have social media so would have had no idea as to whether or not it was common in any one year.

 

[Gallop_Away]

24 is not hot, its a normal average UK temp and it was at 6pm with a strong breeze.

the only way to become acclimatized is not to wimp out at the first sign of it being "hot" (or cold or windy or wet or whatever)

Your client's clearly felt it was too hot. I hope none of them come across your posts and see that they have been described as "snowflakes" for putting their horse's welfare first.

Personally I think I would be finding a new instructor if I discovered mine had such an appalling attitude towards their client's concerns regarding their horses potentially overheating.....

 

[Cortez]

Your client's clearly felt it was too hot. I hope none of them come across your posts and see that they have been described as "snowflakes" for putting their horse's welfare first.

Personally I think I would be finding a new instructor if I discovered mine had such an appalling attitude towards their client's concerns regarding their horses potentially overheating.....

If you don't feel like riding when it's hot then don't, but the likelihood of a horse that is of normal weight and reasonably fit overheating in 24 degrees is absolutely minimal. It doesn't take a genius to notice if a horse is sweating, puffing or otherwise displaying signs of heat stress, and to stop or moderate the work. I have seen a horse collapse and subsequently die of heat stress, it was an obese, black, unfit quarter horse that had been ridden hard by its equally obese rider in 30+ degrees with high humidity, put away in a hot, unventilated barn. There is practically no comparable scenario in the UK that I can imagine.

 

[Gallop_Away]

If you don't feel like riding when it's hot then don't, but the likelihood of a horse that is of normal weight and reasonably fit overheating in 24 degrees is absolutely minimal. It doesn't take a genius to notice if a horse is sweating, puffing or otherwise displaying signs of heat stress, and to stop or moderate the work. I have seen a horse collapse and subsequently die of heat stress, it was an obese, black, unfit quarter horse that had been ridden hard by its equally obese rider in 30+ degrees with high humidity, put away in a hot, unventilated barn. There is practically no comparable scenario in the UK that I can imagine.

And yet I've seen a relatively fit WPB that was not particularly overweight and wasn't ridden particularly hard, overheat and look very unwell in 25 degree heat.

The risk may be minimal, but there is a risk, and we as owners must make our own judgement over what we feel is and isn't appropriate to risk with our horses.

If people want to ride in these sort of temperatures, then they are absolutely free to do so, however I do not feel anyone deserves to be criticised, particularly by a professional, for having reasonable concerns for the welfare of their horses and opting to ride at earlier/later times, or not ride at all.

 

[Nasicus]

24 is not hot, its a normal average UK temp and it was at 6pm with a strong breeze.

the only way to become acclimatized is not to wimp out at the first sign of it being "hot" (or cold or windy or wet or whatever)

Personally, I don't ride because it's too hot for me far before it's too hot for the horse. And I don't consider knowing my limits wimping out, I consider it basic safety. Cold, wet, whatever I can deal with that, but I start struggling the moment the temps hit the high teens.

 

[Red-1]

I think we are skewed as to what is a healthy weight. People throw up their arms in horror if ribs are visible. Heck, I spend loads of effort exercising and dieting to make sure my ribs ARE visible as I know I feel more healthy like that. My joints and energy levels are better and I cope better with heat.

The saddler came the other week, she immediately said how trim BH was. I initially thought she was joking as I think he is well overweight. But no, she was comparing him to others and, compared to a sample that she has seen, he is more trim than average.

He is currently restricted to 4 or 5 hours at grass, dry lot the rest of the day. Restricted hay (1 slice in the afternoon and 2 at night), small Speedybeet and chop feed to get his vits. He is ridden daily, including canter work, even if it is hot.

When I had Rigs as slim as the vet wanted him, I had derogatory comments as you could see lots of ribs. People felt sorry for him. He was much better for it.

I think we have just become accustomed to seeing fatties.

 

[Hallo2012]

Your client's clearly felt it was too hot. I hope none of them come across your posts and see that they have been described as "snowflakes" for putting their horse's welfare first.

Personally I think I would be finding a new instructor if I discovered mine had such an appalling attitude towards their client's concerns regarding their horses potentially overheating.....

fortunately no such fear as i would/have said to them already that long term, wimping out of every less than ideal weather day isn't going to help them achieve their goals......it becomes a vicious circle as the less the horse is ridden the less it CAN cope, so the less they ride.....and so on.

i do have clients with genuine welfare concerns, eg they have medical conditions or the horse does and am always happy to accommodate those but after years you get to know who is just giving up at the first sign of harder work and i do firmly tell them not to.

I have a new client with extremally fat horses, i am quietly waiting to see if they go up or down in the next few weeks before voicing my concerns but if it doesn't go down, and voice them i will. I advocate for the horses, always.

 

[ycbm]

When I lived in very hot, humid places I used to work my horses from 3am - 6am.

I was feeling virtuous being on board by 8am, you've just burst my bubble

 

[BMA2]

Lots of horses and ponies are fat now. People have an obsession with constantly feeding them. How many times do you see a fat pony on a bare paddock (great), but with some weary red faced woman taking it 76 carefully measured and soaked haynets each day to ensure it has constant food, then wondering why it’s still fat (facepalm)?

They need to be kept hard and worked hard to stay slim, something not many people seem prepared to do. My kids ponies spend much of their time on a large bare paddock without hay, and with not much growing to eat at all. They are all slim, healthy, forward and with zero symptoms of ulcers.

I have relented this week and I’m feeding them some hay as we’ve had no rain for a month now and they’re just standing on brown dead grass. But they’re not fat. If they were, I wouldn’t feed them drought or no.

When people can stop feeding fat animals constant hay and hard feeds (oh it’s just a bit of balancer, he’d die without it) then the problem will be solved, but I can’t see that happening.

Could not agree more

Ponies never new what a nut was. They lost weight in the winter. And if they started to look the tiniest bit like weight was coming on we fed them.on concrete aka they were in the yard with basically bog all. And if the dud get something it was the left over bit of hay that once of the horses had left at the bottom of a haynet

 

[2 Dragons]

I agree with so much of the above but think it comes down to many calories in and not enough being used up. Modern life and yard restrictions makes it challenging to achieve the right balance.
Working hours and commuting time has increased for many people. Children and young adults are often reliant on parents to drive them to the yard. Women are often combining looking after their horse with working, caring for children and older relatives. All give less time for riding.

Increased traffic has made hacking less safe. As a 13 year old I used to lead hacks round the streets of south London- that wouldn't happen now.

Marketing means people want rugs with flamingos on and put them on horses who don't need them. Same applies to feed.

I work hard to keep my ponies healthy, but fence moving and hay soaking means I don't get spend time at the yard chatting and drinking tea which I think is many people's preferred activity.

Other people can be critical - I've been told I'm cruel for muzzzling and leaving a hairy native rug less. There is no point in showing my 2 as Welshies as they don't have crests.

Finally in rant against modern horse life, I think their is probably an in-breeding issue in Welsh cobs and maybe other breeds that has lead to metabolic issues

 

[SO1]

I think a combination of many things. Climate change so the grass is not as it used to be. Fertiliser and weedkiller so it is mainly rye grass instead of mixed old pastures.

A larger number of adult horse owners with limited time owning native and cob types who do not have time to exercise enough to control weight.

40 years ago cobs were not popular outside of traveller communities and natives pony showing was perhaps less popular amongst adults. As a child during the school holidays I rode my pony every day. Several of us in the village had ponies kept at home and we would hack to each others homes and then spend time jumping or going on a longer hack and we used to love racing across stuble fields the ponies worked for often 3-4 hours a day. We also did pony club rallies and hacked to shows. In the winter people hunted.

There didn't seem to be so many adults riding and those that did were on sports horses or hunters rather than native types.

I do think livery yards are part of the problem they are not set up for these cob and native types owned by time poor adults. There has been a change in demographics in terms of horse ownership and the types of people who own and what they own and the facilities have not caught up. We need more yards with track set ups to accommodate the rising numbers of cobs and natives who are in light work or semi retired.

The average adult now does not own a TB or hot blooded competition horse, they are more likely to have a warmblood, ID type, native or cob which are more prone to weight gain.

I also wonder if there is a genetic component not all fat natives get laminitis. We have found the gene in connies for HWS and in New Forests for PSSM will we find a gene that makes an equine prone to EMS.

I agree with others who say worry about ulcers and wanting to provide 24/7 access to forage when the only forage they have access to is high sugar grass or hay.

People want to avoid faster work on hard ground and trotting on roads in a way perhaps that was less of a thing years ago.

Are we killing our horses by trying to be kind.

I do think in time livery yards will have to move with the times and we will get more track options and restricted grazing for good doers. It is a welfare issue.

I wonder if there is a difference in the prevalence of laminitis on livery yards compared to people who keep their horses at home who have more choice about how they manage access to grazing and can even reseed so there is less rye.

Also a lot more horses are living beyond 15 and so there will be more cases of cushings related laminitis.

 

[Kaylum]

My lad was doing at least 10 miles a day stayed the same weight all year round. It does make me wonder when people do a 10 mile fun ride and think that's long. I consider him in light work, and nicely fit.

I have read somewhere they are meant to put on weight ready for the winter and lose it ready for the spring, but he kept the same weight all year round with careful feeding and exercise.

 

[Baroque]

I think their is probably an in-breeding issue in Welsh cobs and maybe other breeds that has lead to metabolic issues

I agree with so much that has been said so far. I have also been wondering about your observation 2 Dragons. I have a Welsh cob. EMS, lami prone etc. Because of how I now have to manage her she is (and has been for well over a year) whippet thin, soaked hay and straw chaff for forage, muzzled when turned out and 24/7 freedom to move otherwise. And yet she is currently on box rest with hot feet and weight-shifting. It's exasperating.

I do also wonder when judges are going to truly grasp this nettle. There's been a fair bit of lip-service paid to judges not rewarding obesity in the show ring yet we see images almost daily of pig fat horses taking the top spots. They just can't help themselves. And even if we're not showing, those images make their way to all of us on social media, in advertising, in the press. Our own H & H is full of these pictures. If fat is normalised it's inevitable that it will become the norm...just as it has among humans.

To all my fellow Lami-Watchers I say 'Chin up. We can do this. Only 5 more months'!!

 

[J&S]

I think a combination of many things. Climate change so the grass is not as it used to be. Fertiliser and weedkiller so it is mainly rye grass instead of mixed old pastures.

A larger number of adult horse owners with limited time owning native and cob types who do not have time to exercise enough to control weight.

40 years ago cobs were not popular outside of traveller communities and natives pony showing was perhaps less popular amongst adults. As a child during the school holidays I rode my pony every day. Several of us in the village had ponies kept at home and we would hack to each others homes and then spend time jumping or going on a longer hack and we used to love racing across stuble fields the ponies worked for often 3-4 hours a day. We also did pony club rallies and hacked to shows. In the winter people hunted.

There didn't seem to be so many adults riding and those that did were on sports horses or hunters rather than native types.

I do think livery yards are part of the problem they are not set up for these cob and native types owned by time poor adults. There has been a change in demographics in terms of horse ownership and the types of people who own and what they own and the facilities have not caught up. We need more yards with track set ups to accommodate the rising numbers of cobs and natives who are in light work or semi retired.

The average adult now does not own a TB or hot blooded competition horse, they are more likely to have a warmblood, ID type, native or cob which are more prone to weight gain.

I also wonder if there is a genetic component not all fat natives get laminitis. We have found the gene in connies for HWS and in New Forests for PSSM will we find a gene that makes an equine prone to EMS.

I agree with others who say worry about ulcers and wanting to provide 24/7 access to forage when the only forage they have access to is high sugar grass or hay.

People want to avoid faster work on hard ground and trotting on roads in a way perhaps that was less of a thing years ago.

Are we killing our horses by trying to be kind.

I do think in time livery yards will have to move with the times and we will get more track options and restricted grazing for good doers. It is a welfare issue.

I wonder if there is a difference in the prevalence of laminitis on livery yards compared to people who keep their horses at home who have more choice about how they manage access to grazing and can even reseed so there is less rye.

Also a lot more horses are living beyond 15 and so there will be more cases of cushings related laminitis.

I totally agree with everything SO1 has written here. It mirrors my previous comments as regards livery yards, I too have over seeded my field with timothy, avoid rye as much as possible. I am 25 + years older than SO1 so my memory goes back further, I have no memory of over weight ponies or horses, everything did a grand job and was handed on to younger sibling or found an immediate home. We rode all day in the summer and don't remember giving any extra feeds/supplements which people insist their horses need now (thanks to colourful advertising). I paid 50/- a week livery and £1.00 in the winter to include hay! An old, old jockey I used to see around a yard in the NF said to me one day, "you women (excuse the sexism here!) spend more time brushing your horses and not enough time riding them".

In the past, some ponies spent the week between shafts and were extremely fit, they didn't get much time on the grass and the children rode them in the holidays when they could.
A very different life from ponies now a days.

 

[maya2008]

"you women (excuse the sexism here!) spend more time brushing your horses and not enough time riding them".

That is my experience of livery yards (expensive ones too!) near us. Whenever we come across people from there out hacking, they have these beautifully turned out, very fancy warmbloods. The riders are dressed in expensive gear, with saddles and bridles being top of the range brands (and shining with care). Never see them going faster than a walk though, and I have been stuck behind them for ages trying to politely find a way to get past.

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

I notice a lot of demonisation of "postage stamp paddocks", which were standard laminitis management 20-30 years ago. I have two small natives, one with EMS and PPID, barely in work (a very small amount of lead rein plodding). They go out (unrugged) on the grass Dec-Feb, strip grazed for a few weeks either side of that, but the rest of the year they're kept on approx 30m x30m which is very nearly grass free.

It's not ideal. They do look a bit sad early spring and late autumn when it's muddy (but they do have a shelter and mud control pathways). I'm much happier in the winter when they're out properly. But they're both a perfect weight, zero health conditions, and I don't even have to restrict their hay if they're not getting any grass. It's a compromise that's working very well for us.

 

[criso]

In the past, some ponies spent the week between shafts and were extremely fit, they didn't get much time on the grass and the children rode them in the holidays when they could.
A very different life from ponies now a days.

As I said before that isn't really my experience in the 70s and 80s in Devon.

Many years ago more ponies were on 24/7 turnout all year round, now fewer livery yards offer that as an option so ponies are off grass and stabled for part of the day. I've seen pictures from that time and the ponies seem quite round despite no hay and minimal feed. In theory they were allowed to drop over winter but the natives and cobs didn't much.

On livery yards with kids that I've been on recently school holidays and half term, ponies still get ridden for hours.

Possibly less hacking for miles depending on location and facilities but lots of galloping round the school playing games and in the fields.

Years ago term time years ago no one rode after school for months because there were no schools floodlit or otherwise. Again on livery yards I've seen kids riding after school all year round. At one yard I was at they had to ask that children were finished with the school by a certain time to give the adults a chance to get in.

Ponies lived out 24/7 and there was no expectation to visit every day. The owner kept an eye and ponies were only seen and ridden weekends. Even in the summer with longer evenings, we were dependent on parents taking you to the yard so only went up once or twice in the week at this time of year Now with ponies stabled usually overnight, people come up every day. On one yard, they managed to arrange it so non horsey dad's mucked out while kids rode.

All the ponies that did get laminitis were PTS pretty quicky if they couldn't cope with 24/7 turnout on acres and if feels like we were less likely to make concessions for anything that couldn't cope.

I am just talking about kids and ponies though, there weren't many adults on the yard I was on.

 

[PSD]

A vet said to me that “people who care too much feed too much & this is the issue”. Those that seem to “not care” about their horses (as some put it) and literally give them basic forage, ride them and don’t rug excessively, seem to encounter less issues than those who feed all kinds of hard feed, over rug and such.

It did make me wonder are we all too caring now? Horses are meant to work for their food and forage on poor grazing. Good amount of forage is all that’s needed in winter and they are meant to be lean come spring to allow for the summer gain. My physio said to me “it’s nice to see a welsh that’s fit not fat”. My response was that I’m not prepared to have an obese horse just because society says that’s how they should be, nor would I do it for the sake of a rosette.

 

[dreamcometrue]

I notice a lot of demonisation of "postage stamp paddocks", which were standard laminitis management 20-30 years ago. I have two small natives, one with EMS and PPID, barely in work (a very small amount of lead rein plodding). They go out (unrugged) on the grass Dec-Feb, strip grazed for a few weeks either side of that, but the rest of the year they're kept on approx 30m x30m which is very nearly grass free.

It's not ideal. They do look a bit sad early spring and late autumn when it's muddy (but they do have a shelter and mud control pathways). I'm much happier in the winter when they're out properly. But they're both a perfect weight, zero health conditions, and I don't even have to restrict their hay if they're not getting any grass. It's a compromise that's working very well for us.

This sounds like a good set up and one that I would like for my EMS mare. My main bugbear is that at the times of year when she could go out all day without her muzzle (Nov to March) the turnout at most yards is restricted. I would love to give her those weeks of freedom.

 

[Goldenstar]

My horses are fat I had to remove their muzzles a week ago because of the horse flys, they where getting so irritated by knowing they could not bite their skin they where going to end up doing something silly .
They are in all day and where going out at seven but now I am going to leave them in till bedtime and then turnout .
Three are in work one is retired .
They lived out all winter ( well they had one night in ) never got more than between two and three kilos of haylege a day and they where working one was hunting they only get a balancer and here’s the killer I had muzzles on them unless it was hard frozen or snow .
They finished the winter looking well but not fat now I am back to square one .
I don’t want to stable more than I am
Good doers are such such hard work give me a poor doer anyday.

 

[rabatsa]

Those saying that laminitis/fat ponies were not around years ago have rose tinted specs. In the late 60's early 70's I knew of several ponies that ended their lives due to this.

 

[Follysmum]

Those saying that laminitis/fat ponies were not around years ago have rose tinted specs. In the late 60's early 70's I knew of several ponies that ended their lives due to this.

My first pony late 60,s was a resectioned laminitic. Really can’t see why my parents got him for me as was a big gamble. However he came right and never had any problems after . He was well worked and never had to be stabled.

 

[tristar]

ours put on a few pounds 3 weeks ago, now since the rain, they are back on the short grass area, about 1 acre per horse well grazed down in prep, after 5 days they have lost weight and look fine again, they have hay x 2 per day in paddock, graze non stop, come in at night, to feed and hay, out at 8am

the short grazed areas are a life saver [literally] then i have medium grazed areas, and eat all you can [but please don`t!] if they are they right weight they can go on the medium grass areas for a few hours, but all the time have grazing whilst outside

how people on yards manage i have no idea, it must be very hard, frustrating.

 

[scats]

My horses are fat I had to remove their muzzles a week ago because of the horse flys, they where getting so irritated by knowing they could not bite their skin they where going to end up doing something silly .
They are in all day and where going out at seven but now I am going to leave them in till bedtime and then turnout .
Three are in work one is retired .
They lived out all winter ( well they had one night in ) never got more than between two and three kilos of haylege a day and they where working one was hunting they only get a balancer and here’s the killer I had muzzles on them unless it was hard frozen or snow .
They finished the winter looking well but not fat now I am back to square one .
I don’t want to stable more than I am
Good doers are such such hard work give me a poor doer anyday.

Millie looks huge and I just can’t get any weight off her at all. Polly has got to the stage that she drops it pretty easily with diet and exercise, but Millie won’t. I can see ribs now, so she is losing something, but she has such a weird shape that she’s still enormous, with these ribs showing through on the bottom 1/3 of her body. It’s like banging my head against a brick wall.

She’s on a very short and well grazed field, currently no muzzle as the grass wasn’t even long enough to get through the muzzle hole, from 7pm to 8am. In during the day to 1.5kg of Timothy horsehage (she won’t eat soaked hay) and then I get down at 5pm and she gets another 0.5kg before she is ridden. She usually does 6 days a week work, mixture of hacking, schooling and lunging. Then back out to her field. Polly has the same but she isn’t doing as much work, and she’s got easily felt/visible when moving ribs. Millie is impossible!

 

[ponynutz]

I notice a lot of demonisation of "postage stamp paddocks", which were standard laminitis management 20-30 years ago. I have two small natives, one with EMS and PPID, barely in work (a very small amount of lead rein plodding). They go out (unrugged) on the grass Dec-Feb, strip grazed for a few weeks either side of that, but the rest of the year they're kept on approx 30m x30m which is very nearly grass free.

It's not ideal. They do look a bit sad early spring and late autumn when it's muddy (but they do have a shelter and mud control pathways). I'm much happier in the winter when they're out properly. But they're both a perfect weight, zero health conditions, and I don't even have to restrict their hay if they're not getting any grass. It's a compromise that's working very well for us.

This for us too. Interesting comment about shorter grass being rich in sugars, I never knew that and so would think twice before buying something lami-prone or with a history maybe now.

That being said, similar to you, our two are on an acre between them from May to October and survive perfectly well. Neither are fat, although not slim either it should be said as neither are in any kind of work, but don't lose any condition over winter either as they are basically fed hay all year with the exception of some grass in May/early June. I quite like our tiny field, especially now neither are in work and are both good-doers. (Ours also look a bit sad in their winter turnout which consists of a sand paddock and haynets but at least they're out, right? )