Laminitus - help needed please!!

[emc1]

our pony (welsh Section A age 8) has had laminitus all summer at varying degrees and is now not responding to treatment at all.
some background info;
He's been in stable since March, had x rays done 2 weeks ago and there is little rotation, if any. He has nicely trimmed feet but is unshod. He is on a deep shavings bed and rubber matting, he has frog supports on.
He is being fed Hi Fi Lite (chaff type feed) as a hay replacement, lami lick, small amount of maintenence cubes twice a day and one bute a day. Trouble is he is still in A LOT of pain and really doesnt want to move. I feel so sorry for him. I have tried feeding him soaked hay but he seems to be worse on this. He has NO grass. He had some carrots last week and was awful the next day.
Can anyone tell me if they have had similar experiences? Is it ever the case that they dont recover? I just cant seem to snap him out of the attack - any suggestions gratefully received - thanks guys xx

 

[Moggy in Manolos]

Gosh this sounds very difficult, it sounds like you are doing everything you possibly can. I feel for you having a lammi prone myself,its horrible, i have no suggestions on top of what you are already doing, but wish you lots of luck that it comes right for you.

 

[Dougie]

no carrots...at all!!! could you cut out the cubes?(unless they are special lami ones) is there definatly no rotation? if none you just have to percivear...unless you feel he has a poor quality of life at which stage options may hav to be re-assesed.

you do seem to be doing all the right things, pherhaps up his bute for a short time?

hope the little chap gets better

 

[brighteyes]

I think he needs further investigation as it doesn't sound like classical lami to me. Has your vet not said anything about how long it is all taking? Could he possibly have very early onset Cushing's? If not too expensive, consider a blood test if your vet thinks it might shed some more light on the subject. Poor both of you

 

[Dougie]

would a blood test be pos brighteyes? as they have to have an injection of steriod whch causes lami to flare up???

 

[MagicMelon]

What does your farrier recommend? Vets are crap when it comes to feet, you need to find a really decent farrier who is up to date with modern remedial shoeing. Probably some sort of stick on heart bars or something might help. Our farrier basically saved our pony who had lami for a year. Almost lost him if it hadnt been for our farrier!

Is he depressed? If so, make sure he can see other horses, even touch them if possible. Depression never helps when they're in pain as it just makes them worse. Can he not have hay? Old stuff (not dusty, just not really good stuff)? I would take him off the maintenece cubes completely as 100% fibre is the best thing so maybe high-fibre cubes or just purely the chaff. If he gets bored of the chaff, maybe swop to something like Happy Hoof or Safe & Sound which has fibre nuts in it as well. Dont give him any carrots, I believe they're quite high in sugar although not sure about this.

It does sound odd that he isnt improving at all, especially since March. It must be a severe case? Ours had it very badly and was lame for a year...... but through remedial shoeing and loads of bute, eventually he made a full recovery and 15 years on, we have kept it at bay ever since. So it can take a while for them to recover, but its dodgy that he keeps getting worse. Whats the vet saying?

 

[brighteyes]

Hi Dougie

The latest Cushing's test is done purely on the normal blood. It has to be taken first thing in the morning, after being 'starved' over night and the blood has to be spun straight away and then frozen before being sent for testing.

Due to our laminitis, I queried the steroid injection thing and was told it wasn't a part of this new method.

My pony would have needed to be left at the vets over night as travelling her there and then taking the blood would have stressed her too much and affected the results. I could only wonder at how stressed a 26 year old pony would be left in a strange place over night and starved would be.

So, no, the steroid test is not the only option, it appears.

 

[Happytohack]

I have a pony with Cushings (see post above yours). He had a severe bout of laminitis in Jan/Feb of this year (he had already had xrays which showed mild rotation of the pedal bones). He was on complete box rest for 10 weeks. During this time he was on 2 bute twice a day plus ACP twice a day. The bute was then reduced to 2 bute twice a day and the ACP was gradually stopped. Even after 10 weeks he was on a maintenance dose of 1 bute a day and has only recently stopped this. I would suggest you have another word with your vet about revising the medication and ask about ACP as this increases circulation to the damaged lamini. I would also give your pony hay (possibly last year's to reduce the sugar content) as he needs fibre to maintain gut health, not just a hay replacer. A handful of hi fibre cubes is ok but definitely no carrots as these are high in natural sugars. My farrier is fantastic and fitted imprint shoes - these are stick on heart bars,but they are expensive (£100 for the fronts) but in my pony's case I am certain they saved his life, my pony improved rapidly after they were fitted and obviously found them much more comfortable than the frog supports. If xrays show no rotation, there is no reason why your pony should not recover but I would get the medication reviewed and ask your farrier about the possibility of the imprint shoes.

 

[Dougie]

sorry didnt know about the new test, after all scotland aint the most civilisied place

 

[mrsbloggett]

My NF mare succumbed to Laminitis mid August and is only just starting to come right. She has slight pedal bone rotation in her left fore.

The vet thought she may need to have a front wall section on her hoof, and refered her to a specialist farrier, who discovered she had an under-run sole. He took a large crescent shaped section from her sole to allow the fluid which had built up between the two layers of sole. I had to poultice and dress the foot for a week and then my usual farrier fitted her with Natural Balance shoes. I am having to dress the foot with cotton wool & stockholm tar for 3 weeks to ensure the sole stays clean. The farrier is due to reshoe her this week, so I am hoping her sole has started to grow back.

What does your vet & farrier think about your pony's prolonged lami as you haven't mentioned their course of action through your posts? I would be very concerned if your vet and/ or farrier are not suggesting any further treatment or investigations after all this time.

 

[AmyMay]

Sorry - but the only thing that immediately springs to mind is 'is it time to call it a day'?????????????

Not helpful at all I'm afraid.

 

[brighteyes]

Well, not sure about the geographics and may even be wrong about the test - steroids were not mentioned and he said it was just a blood sample which was to be taken first thing in the morning. Maybe they have found a different thing to look for. If I were to have the test, NO WAY would I let them jab her with steroids!

 

[Happytohack]

The test that was done on my pony last year was definitely not steroids as he is a chronic laminitic and no way would the vet inject him with steroids. Can't remember what the test was called though which isn't much help.

 

[hannah1982]

God poor you, I'd definately swap onto Happy Hoof as it is approved by the Lami Trust and is a complete feed so you wouldn't have to worry about the lick or anything.

Spiller High Fibre cubes are also approved by the Lami trust, you could try putting them in a ball to encourage him to move around his stable a bit.

have you tried making him walk a bit? Sometimes they get it into their heads that they just can't but perhaps if you encouraged him to walk about it would improve the blood supply and relieve some of the discomfort. Have you anywhere you could turn him out with a friend for a couple of hours - a sand school or something?

Sorry not much help, good luck x

 

[Chumsmum]

Sorry to hijack the post but my friend would like some advice for her 36yo pony who is suffering from laminitus for the 1st time ever. It was probably caused by over feeding (trying to keep the weight on him) so he has been cut back to just his soaked spillers hi fibre cubes + 1 bute a day. She is wondering whether she should encourage him to move about more (he really doesn't want to move) or leave him on complete box rest? Also, what do you think about using ACP on such an old pony? He has had a couple of 'funny' turns in the last year but besides that and this laminitus he is fine. Thanks for any replies

 

[AmyMay]

What does the vet say Chumsmum???

 

[Thistle]

Do what the vet says. I guess he has prescribed total box rest, ACP and bute, pretty much standard treatment.
Lami treatment has moved on and no longer prescribes exercise.

 

[Chumsmum]

Waiting for a reply from my friend re: what the vet says - I know he didn't mention/prescribe ACP (I think he is a bit of an old-fashioned vet and doesn't sound the most approachable

but I said it was mentioned on here and she has used it on younger ponies to good effect. She normally wouldn't have a problem with this sort of thing but I think it's his age that she worries about.

Friend just called - vet said exercise, bute & carrots - she thought this sounded old-fashioned - glad I came on here! He has got a fairly big stable so will keep him on box rest (without the carrots). The thing she is unsure of is the ACP - he has had sort of mini strokes in the last year - has anyone got any experience of giving it to older ponies? She will call vet again

 

[Thistle]

Recently my vet said not to give ACP to my elderly depressed laminitic pony. We were just going to give him a few weeks and say goodbye, however he has apparently make a full recovery and is making a nuisance ofhimself again. Still on limited turnout though.

Have a look at www.laminitis.org

 

[Chumsmum]

Thanks for reply - he doesn't seem depressed, just in a lot of pain. I think she may leave the ACP for now and just keep him on bute/boxrest. She is kicking herself for letting him get laminitus - he looked at death's door last year he lost so much weight and it was a godsend when we found the hay replacement that he loves. However, he also (as he has done all his life) gets a pretty big feed inc barley conditioner and it must have been this that caused it - he has never suffered with it before and he is 36yo! I have printed the recommendations off the website and will pass them on.
Once again - thanks for replies

 

[Tia]

I've read this post countless times now but haven't replied as I didn't think I could have anything positive to say. If roles were reversed I think if it was my pony, it wouldn't be alive now. Sorry but 7 months is a very long time to be ill.

So why have I replied this time? Well it was just something you said in your initial post which didn't really absorb all those other times I read it.......are you saying that your pony has been on TOTAL box rest since March? If this is the case then perhaps it is time for a last ditch attempt at helping him to recover.

Laminitis information has not exactly leapt ahead....however it has changed over the years. It used to be leave the horse in the deeply-bedded stable, put heartbars on; basically an existance! This is not what is suggested today by progressive vets - they want the horse stabilised and then exercised!

I did not adhere to all of the above - many traditional thoughts sounded counterproductive to me, hence I had a long conversation with my vet and I decided to take my pony down our own route. He was all for it - christ my pony was literally dying before my very eyes so had it all gone wrong what would I have lost? Nothing more than I was going to lose anyway.

So my pony had her styrofoam pads taken off, shod for 2 days in heartbars and then as I felt they were detrimental to her they were immediately taken off. She had a very thick shavings and rubber matted bed in an enormous stable. I bought her a pair of Old Mac's and took her for walks about 6 times a day. We started off just going around the stableyard for a minute and then within a week she was able to walk around the arena and the stableyard which would take about 10 or 15 minutes. Blimey in no time the pony improved beyond belief and we took to wandering around the village 3 times a day; slow going but would take about an hour at a time - within a couple of months the pony was pretty much cured. Latest x-rays confirmed that her rotated pedal bone had miraculously rotated back to it's correct place. No long term damage had been done. 2 years on she is a healthy pony.

Exercise is the key to this disease in my opinion!! Yes there are some on here who poo-poo this......have they ever personally dealt with laminitis? Were they successful? Is their animal alive today? Did they have the heartache of it actually being their animal affected and are not just spewing out garbage about what they have read or heard from someone else's experiences?

My vet used my pony's case as setting a precedent and an option for other depressed owners to try. Acute cases; yes thick bed and keeping them comfortable is paramount. Once in the chronic stages it is time to consider other options if what you are doing is not working. Get them exercised, get the blood flowing back into the feet - good circulation is important.

Good luck.

 

[eekmon]

I agree with you on this one! We have a pony on our yard who at one stage had 21% rotation in one foot and 17% in the other! She has has silicone pads put on with a thicker rubber pads over the top. She was cushings case, but anyway she was told the same thing about the blood flow and some gentle walking. At first we just roped off a section of the yard and she walked about when she wanted.She now goes out in the field for a few hours a day.

 

[SirenaXVI]

[ QUOTE ]
friend just called - vet said exercise, bute & carrots

[/ QUOTE ]

Excercise! Have you ever trapped your nail in a door or banged it with a hammer? That is what laminitis feels like - can you then imagine someone making you walk around on that nail? Bute, box rest on a deep deep bed and careful feeding until he is sound - then some gentle walking would IMHO be a much better idea!

Please don't feed him carrots - they are packed full of sugar and starch needs to be avoided at all costs. I suspect that it was the barley that caused this as it is highest in starch of all the cereals.

You need to keep his fibre levels up, feed old hay that has been soaked for 24 hours (I know before anyone spouts on about sewage etc, but there are mitigating circumstances here) by soaking the hay you can leach out the nutrients and feed more of it. You need to settle his hindgut which will have become acidic and leaky due to starch overload (this triggers the laminitis) so a probiotic is important, as is vit/min supplementation - especially biotin, methionine etc. DO NOT STARVE HIM - give him plent of long and short fibre (soaked hay, hi-fi light, speedibeet etc). On this regime you can keep him well covered and avoid the risk of laminitis.

Good luck I hope he makes a full recovery.

 

[Chumsmum]

I've got a feeling that she wont be using this vet again....
She has obviously cut out the barley - he is on the soaked hi fi cubes - he has a small amount of hay but only picks at it really - he can't manage it anymore. She has also started him on Laminaze - anyone used this? She leaves his stable door open when she is on the yard so he can go out to the barn if he wants to. Even though he is old and has these problems he is still full of live and a lovely character so hopefully he will come right again. Thanks for your advice

 

[SirenaXVI]

Are his teeth the reason he can't manage long fibre? It really is important that he gets lots of fibre so I would suggest she offers him a bucket of hi-fi or something equally low sugar (not mollichop - covered in mollasses

) along with his soaked cubes - it will be easier for him to eat and if she leaves a big bucket full in his stable he can pick at it all day, alternatively she could mix hi-fi and speedibeet and leave a bucket of that for him to munch on.

 

[colmio]

Hi,
We have travelled this road, it is not an easy one.

Long fibres seem to be essential, possibly due to the action of the gut. No sugars at all! We used a few sun flower seeds as a little treat.

Our poor laminitic pony did not respond to changes in diet, shoeing, padding or ordinary pain killers. We tried a variety of remedies under veterinary advice, ranging from anti cancer drugs to thyroxine, to no avail. For pain relief, which is essential to quality of life, I found he got the most effect from fluxinin orally.

Sadly we were not able keep our little guy, and he was pts after every solution was exhausted at the age of 11.


Best of luck to your friends pony.

 

[MagicMelon]

Can I just say to the people who said the pony should be put down. When my pony got it as a 5yo many years ago, he got it very bad. He was ill for a year, he was depressed and got quite thin because of it (although he was in a small dirt paddock right beside his friends etc. and we did everything to try to amuse him). My family spent a fortune on him getting the very best vet care and farrier treatments (including heart bar shoes and very new shoeing methods etc. which I also believe saved him). However he came sound. He is now 20 years old and I am very proud to say he has not had laminitis since! Yes, he does get the odd absess but to be honest they seem to have decreased (he used to get 2 a year on average, but he only had 1 last year and none this year so far).

He goes out in his paddock (which is actually quite big for a lami pony, just doesnt have much grass!) all summer with his friend. And out in the big field with all my horses in the winter. He gets hay all year round and 2 feeds a day. He is pretty much retired now although did do some BSJA only about 5 years ago! Im not sure if I could put him through it all again, but in this case I believe it was worth it. He has a brilliant quality of life so I think we did the right thing.

However, we have been lucky that really it hasnt been that hard to keep the lami at bay since. I know some horses get it repeatedly even through the very best efforts and in this case I would listen to the vet if he recommended PTS. If my boy kept getting it.... well lets just say if he got it again then that would have to be the end of him as his pedal bones would probably drop.

 

[AmyMay]

Well I was one of the people whose immediate thoughts were put it down. I just can't get my head round watching something continue to be in pain for 6 months with no visible signs of improvement.

Obviously each case is different - However, I most definately stand by my original comment.

 

[emc1]

Hi all - an update and more advice desperately needed please!!

Pony is still very bad. he has had a week on Spillers Happy Hoof and Hi Fi Cubes only - nothing else feed wise BUT he has been having 2 bute a night and one in the morning and this morning I had to feed him lying down and bring his water to him. I got him up this afternoon and he is still standing now but sweating (he has a thick coat). I have moved him off his reasonably deep shavings bed to a very deep straw bed. He is also drinking a suprising amount - 2 water buckets during the day and another 2 over night.
I am worried that he still cannot walk having had 2 bute. Can anyone offer any help? I just dont know what to do. I will get the vet out again to see him but I am doing everything they tell me to so I dont really know what they will be able to do.
Is it going to just go eventually? He has had NO grass / hay for weeks now. Previous to this week he was on Hifi lite as a hay replacement.
HELP!!

 

[Tia]

I am so sorry but I believe your pony doesn't just have laminitis I would suspect. I think he has something else going on here for it to have been going on this long. I'd get the vet out pronto and get him to do as many tests as possible - something is seriously not right!!

Fingers crossed for you.