Lane horse immediately after passing vetting

[[149293]]

Wow - and so...? What happens now? If this was June where do you stand for return and refund? MRI's are jolly expensive aren't they? I hope the VDS come down on your side but the being attached is rubbish. You will feel very torn about casting him out to take his chances.

I’m planning on trying to get him better but he isn’t really going to do what I brought him for. Really cross and feel like this vet didn’t have my interests at heart.

 

[ester]

The horse had x rays first and it was clear then mri was advised to see if ligaments were involved

i have videos from the vetting and a skilled eye can see it intermittently. Other signs of pain opening mouth tense neck.
The sidebone can be seen in photos from July (now I know what I’m looking for) this didn’t appear over night.
I genuinely feel this vet was not really working for me, but more the seller. The sidebone can clearly be felt too.
the mri shows the extent of the sidebone and that it’s not new. (Not like an injury that could have occurred at any point)

initial x rays show sidebone same as it is now. Yes bloods done but I don’t believe anything was used to cover this up. The horse has the same odd movement on nsaids now

These two posts don't quite make sense, the xrays can't have been clear if the sidebone was there?

 

[[149293]]

These two posts don't quite make sense, the xrays can't have been clear if the sidebone was there?

The sidebone was clearly there on the x rays

 

[ester]

Ah it read as though the xrays were clear not the sidebone.

 

[ycbm]

The sidebone was clearly there on the x rays

Then why was the MRI necessary? Why didn't the vet nerve block the sidebone and establish that it was the cause of the lameness without an MRI? The MRI doesn't add any understanding of why the horse is lame off they were seen on x ray. It will still need a nerve block to prove it's the sidebone, which are often present without lameness,

I'm not sure any vet involved in this is covering themselves with glory!

 

[BronsonNutter]

Then why was the MRI necessary? Why didn't the vet nerve block the sidebone and establish that it was the cause of the lameness without an MRI? The MRI doesn't add any understanding of why the horse is lame off they were seen on x ray. It will still need a nerve block to prove it's the sidebone, which are often present without lameness,

I'm not sure any vet involved in this is covering themselves with glory!

It would be impossible to block ‘just’ the side bone unfortunately, you’re restricted to either the coffin joint, navicular bursa or the whole hoof (or caudal 2/3rds, depending on how high/low you go and which research papers you believe!). I’m assuming that prior to the MRI they’ll have blocked the foot?

I imagine the MRI would be to rule out if there was something ‘new’ soft tissue wise which could be causing the lameness, or if it must be the sidebone (which as you correctly said, can be present in both sound and lame horses).

 

[ycbm]

Thanks for explaining, I thought it was possible to use anaesthetic around the sidebone itself.

 

[Equi]

What a sad outcome. Being so long ago, and being that the horse is now basically unsellable for the dealer/exowner, what outcome do you want OP? And by that i mean, would you be happy to send the horse back at this stage not knowing if he will be buted up and sold on again to a novice who will just work them on anyway.Im not really sure on these things but i assume the horse will not have a great prognosis? Would this be a PTS situation?

 

[BronsonNutter]

Thanks for explaining, I thought it was possible to use anaesthetic around the sidebone itself.

No problem- the nerve that innervates the whole foot runs just down the inside of the hoof cartilages (which form sidebone) so it would look like you would be doing that for a palmar digital nerve block. You can feel the nerve fairly nicely in a non-hairy horse - there’s one on each side, like a little shoelace under the skin ?

 

[Red-1]

It’s not a private sale I transferred money to the dealer. Also this is back to the vets that vetted the horse not the dealer as he passed a vetting when he shouldn’t have done
Yes already made the complaint it’s well under way! The extent of the sidebone proves it was here before I brought the horse they don’t appear over night

I really do feel for you, it is gutting.

However, I have sold twice using a sales livery, nothing alarming about it, I simply didn't have the facilities to show the horses off, and their ride could show what the horse is capable of. One time the purchaser paid BACS into my account, the other time they paid the yard, who gave me the money. Nothing suspicious either time, it was simply more convenient. Either time, it was a private sale.

I think you would struggle to get money back from the owner, you say yourself that you don't think they knew and nothing was given to cover up any lameness.

So, you have set into motion a complaint against the vet. In my cases, the yard gave vet info to the buyers as they were from out of area. Nothing suspicious about that. It does sound strange that a sales yard has no hardstanding for a vetting. Not very professional. I feel for the vet somewhat here. I have had an eventer who dished like crazy, but had a FEI career and competed sound until he was 20. Toe-in conformation usually accompanies a dish.

You say lameness was present at the vetting, but then that Bute doesn't affect the movement. Horses that dish more one side than the other do have asymmetrical movement, without it being lame. You say that the sidetone can be easily felt and seen now, well, we had one whose sidetone was enormous at 4 years old, not there at 3, so they can and do grow relatively quickly. I don't dispute that one will likely have been there, but with a dishing horse, a smaller sidebone, horse showing resistance (which could be for many reasons other than lameness) I think it may be difficult to say the vet was devious or negligent.

I presume the sidebone was not quite as huge on X ray 6 months ago as you say that it was not identified at first, presumably with your own vet? So, 6 months ago 2 vets missed it, one of which was definitely working for you. Also, you rode the horse and thought it sound.

I am not saying that you are wrong, just that I would be surprised if you were able to prove fraud or negligence.

 

[[149293]]

What a sad outcome. Being so long ago, and being that the horse is now basically unsellable for the dealer/exowner, what outcome do you want OP? And by that i mean, would you be happy to send the horse back at this stage not knowing if he will be buted up and sold on again to a novice who will just work them on anyway.Im not really sure on these things but i assume the horse will not have a great prognosis? Would this be a PTS situation?

It will absolutely stay with me, I think they should be paying for the treatment. Lameness was noticed very quickly on getting the horse home. X rays done in three months and showed extensive ossification which didn’t occur that quickly.

 

[[149293]]

Then why was the MRI necessary? Why didn't the vet nerve block the sidebone and establish that it was the cause of the lameness without an MRI? The MRI doesn't add any understanding of why the horse is lame off they were seen on x ray. It will still need a nerve block to prove it's the sidebone, which are often present without lameness,

I'm not sure any vet involved in this is covering themselves with glory!

It’s been nerve blocked and as said above it was to rule out soft tissue involvement

 

[[149293]]

I really do feel for you, it is gutting.

However, I have sold twice using a sales livery, nothing alarming about it, I simply didn't have the facilities to show the horses off, and their ride could show what the horse is capable of. One time the purchaser paid BACS into my account, the other time they paid the yard, who gave me the money. Nothing suspicious either time, it was simply more convenient. Either time, it was a private sale.

I think you would struggle to get money back from the owner, you say yourself that you don't think they knew and nothing was given to cover up any lameness.

So, you have set into motion a complaint against the vet. In my cases, the yard gave vet info to the buyers as they were from out of area. Nothing suspicious about that. It does sound strange that a sales yard has no hardstanding for a vetting. Not very professional. I feel for the vet somewhat here. I have had an eventer who dished like crazy, but had a FEI career and competed sound until he was 20. Toe-in conformation usually accompanies a dish.

You say lameness was present at the vetting, but then that Bute doesn't affect the movement. Horses that dish more one side than the other do have asymmetrical movement, without it being lame. You say that the sidetone can be easily felt and seen now, well, we had one whose sidetone was enormous at 4 years old, not there at 3, so they can and do grow relatively quickly. I don't dispute that one will likely have been there, but with a dishing horse, a smaller sidebone, horse showing resistance (which could be for many reasons other than lameness) I think it may be difficult to say the vet was devious or negligent.

I presume the sidebone was not quite as huge on X ray 6 months ago as you say that it was not identified at first, presumably with your own vet? So, 6 months ago 2 vets missed it, one of which was definitely working for you. Also, you rode the horse and thought it sound.

I am not saying that you are wrong, just that I would be surprised if you were able to prove fraud or negligence.

The first time it was x rayed was three months after purchase and it was large and had extensive ossification. Farriers said horse should not have passed a vetting..

 

[SOS]

I’m a bit confused, you complained to the veterinary defence society? They are there to defend the veterinary profession (in a fair manner). Surely your complaint should of been to the RCVS? Unless you mean the vetting vet is waiting to hear back from the VDS? If so I’d chase them up, they normally give us an instant answer over the phone or within a very quick time period.

Also confused at your timeline.
Horse vetted.
Horse got home.
Horse lame.
Did you pick up the phone and instantly ring the vet and note this? Or wait a while then bring it back up? It sounds like you waited until the horse was reshod.

 

[shortstuff99]

I think you are going to need proper legal advice. Normally if you want a refund etc you have to return the horse, I believe it is harder to keep the horse and have money returned.

 

[Red-1]

The first time it was x rayed was three months after purchase and it was large and had extensive ossification. Farriers said horse should not have passed a vetting..

I totally accept that the horse probably had a side bone prior to purchase, but this does not mean that the owner would have to refund, or that the vet was negligent. With all due respect, without statements from professionals prepared to stand up in court, what they say is merely upsetting and not helpful.

As regards an X ray 3 months on, I presume when the horse went lame, you had your own vet, who didn't spot the side bone, despite the horse being lame on that leg? Then, 3 moths later, the horse was X rayed, but you then say that you can see the side bone now you know what you are looking for, so presumably the vet who took the radiographs (your vet) didn't immediately spot this at the time of the X rays?

Has your vet said that he would be prepared to give evidence against the other vet?

I would be surprised. A sidebone can come on from no issue to big when work/shoeing changes. Think of how quickly a splint can come up! I know that when mine threw one, it was pretty much not there one day and there the next. Ossified to the cannon within 6 weeks too.

Again, I am really sorry. It is NOT fair. It is the reason many people take speculative X rays prior to purchase. But, it is an animal and I don't want you to think that it is a straightforward thing, as I don't think it is. When I was in a similar situation, I started to fight against the seller (dealer) but in the end decided that I bought the horse, I own the horse and got on with life. I am not saying it is right or fir, but it saved me a lot of aggravation, but yes, I did lose a lot of money

 

[[149293]]

I really do feel for you, it is gutting.

However, I have sold twice using a sales livery, nothing alarming about it, I simply didn't have the facilities to show the horses off, and their ride could show what the horse is capable of. One time the purchaser paid BACS into my account, the other time they paid the yard, who gave me the money. Nothing suspicious either time, it was simply more convenient. Either time, it was a private sale.

I think you would struggle to get money back from the owner, you say yourself that you don't think they knew and nothing was given to cover up any lameness.

So, you have set into motion a complaint against the vet. In my cases, the yard gave vet info to the buyers as they were from out of area. Nothing suspicious about that. It does sound strange that a sales yard has no hardstanding for a vetting. Not very professional. I feel for the vet somewhat here. I have had an eventer who dished like crazy, but had a FEI career and competed sound until he was 20. Toe-in conformation usually accompanies a dish.

You say lameness was present at the vetting, but then that Bute doesn't affect the movement. Horses that dish more one side than the other do have asymmetrical movement, without it being lame. You say that the sidetone can be easily felt and seen now, well, we had one whose sidetone was enormous at 4 years old, not there at 3, so they can and do grow relatively quickly. I don't dispute that one will likely have been there, but with a dishing horse, a smaller sidebone, horse showing resistance (which could be for many reasons other than lameness) I think it may be difficult to say the vet was devious or negligent.

I presume the sidebone was not quite as huge on X ray 6 months ago as you say that it was not identified at first, presumably with your own vet? So, 6 months ago 2 vets missed it, one of which was definitely working for you. Also, you rode the horse and thought it sound.

I am not saying that you are wrong, just that I would be surprised if you were able to prove fraud or negligence.

My vets were in the area but told to use

I’m a bit confused, you complained to the veterinary defence society? They are there to defend the veterinary profession (in a fair manner). Surely your complaint should of been to the RCVS? Unless you mean the vetting vet is waiting to hear back from the VDS? If so I’d chase them up, they normally give us an instant answer over the phone or within a very quick time period.

Also confused at your timeline.
Horse vetted.
Horse got home.
Horse lame.
Did you pick up the phone and instantly ring the vet and note this? Or wait a while then bring it back up? It sounds like you waited until the horse was reshod.

no I didn’t wait at all. I called them straight away. My vet hoped it was a bruise hence it’s gone on. Lots of videos from early on.
it gets referred to the vds.
Not much more that can be done now apart from wait. I can’t see my insurance paying as this was pre existing

 

[[149293]]

I totally accept that the horse probably had a side bone prior to purchase, but this does not mean that the owner would have to refund, or that the vet was negligent. With all due respect, without statements from professionals prepared to stand up in court, what they say is merely upsetting and not helpful.

As regards an X ray 3 months on, I presume when the horse went lame, you had your own vet, who didn't spot the side bone, despite the horse being lame on that leg? Then, 3 moths later, the horse was X rayed, but you then say that you can see the side bone now you know what you are looking for, so presumably the vet who took the radiographs (your vet) didn't immediately spot this at the time of the X rays?

Has your vet said that he would be prepared to give evidence against the other vet?

I would be surprised. A sidebone can come on from no issue to big when work/shoeing changes. Think of how quickly a splint can come up! I know that when mine threw one, it was pretty much not there one day and there the next. Ossified to the cannon within 6 weeks too.

Again, I am really sorry. It is NOT fair. It is the reason many people take speculative X rays prior to purchase. But, it is an animal and I don't want you to think that it is a straightforward thing, as I don't think it is. When I was in a similar situation, I started to fight against the seller (dealer) but in the end decided that I bought the horse, I own the horse and got on with life. I am not saying it is right or fir, but it saved me a lot of aggravation, but yes, I did lose a lot of money

Yeh I agree it’s not straight forward at all. Just so rubbish when you try to avoid this and end up again in such a crappy situation.
I will update when I hear the outcome

 

[AmyMay]

Sorry if its been mentioned, but did you speak to the previous owner when the horse went lame?

 

[SOS]

no I didn’t wait at all. I called them straight away. My vet hoped it was a bruise hence it’s gone on. Lots of videos from early on.
it gets referred to the vds.
Not much more that can be done now apart from wait. I can’t see my insurance paying as this was pre existing

Ah that makes sense, so the complaint was made to the RCVS and they are awaiting response from the VDS (I.e the vets response).
I think it’s really unlucky but I’m not sure it’s the vets fault. The horse was declared sound at the time of vetting and thus fit for purpose in the examinations they have done. You too agreed with the vet and brought the horse home. Since then an underlying condition was found which unfortunately means it’s not fit for purpose. But the only way to find this was further examination. Unless the horses history had this issue in I don’t think there is much to stand on. A vetting unfortunately can’t tell if a horse has any possible existing conditions unless every exam under the sun was done, I.e bloods, xrays, scans.

 

[[149293]]

Ah that makes sense, so the complaint was made to the RCVS and they are awaiting response from the VDS (I.e the vets response).
I think it’s really unlucky but I’m not sure it’s the vets fault. The horse was declared sound at the time of vetting and thus fit for purpose in the examinations they have done. You too agreed with the vet and brought the horse home. Since then an underlying condition was found which unfortunately means it’s not fit for purpose. But the only way to find this was further examination. Unless the horses history had this issue in I don’t think there is much to stand on. A vetting unfortunately can’t tell if a horse has any possible existing conditions unless every exam under the sun was done, I.e bloods, xrays, scans.

it’s quite visible in photos from the shape of the hoof from pre purchase. There is also more to this which I’m not going to post on the internet until it’s dealt with through the vds now. Thanks for your reply i will post the outcome.

 

[brighteyes]

Good luck.

 

[ycbm]

No problem- the nerve that innervates the whole foot runs just down the inside of the hoof cartilages (which form sidebone) so it would look like you would be doing that for a palmar digital nerve block. You can feel the nerve fairly nicely in a non-hairy horse - there’s one on each side, like a little shoelace under the skin ?

Long, long ago in the days way before MRI, I have a very vague recollection of a vet infusing anesthetic into the area immediately around the sidebone and establishing the sidebone was responsible for the lameness that way. I may have dreamt it though!

If the horse is insured and the insurer will pay then MRI makes sense these days, of course.,
.

 

[SOS]

it’s quite visible in photos from the shape of the hoof from pre purchase. There is also more to this which I’m not going to post on the internet until it’s dealt with through the vds now. Thanks for your reply i will post the outcome.

I hope the information you’re keeping to yourself lends you to a result. I do feel for you, it is really rubbish luck.

 

[[149293]]

I hope the information you’re keeping to yourself lends you to a result. I do feel for you, it is really rubbish luck.

Let’s hope so, I think it’s difficult to put everything on here images videos reports ect. I just want the horse to be ok.

 

[[149293]]

I really do feel for you, it is gutting.

However, I have sold twice using a sales livery, nothing alarming about it, I simply didn't have the facilities to show the horses off, and their ride could show what the horse is capable of. One time the purchaser paid BACS into my account, the other time they paid the yard, who gave me the money. Nothing suspicious either time, it was simply more convenient. Either time, it was a private sale.

I think you would struggle to get money back from the owner, you say yourself that you don't think they knew and nothing was given to cover up any lameness.

So, you have set into motion a complaint against the vet. In my cases, the yard gave vet info to the buyers as they were from out of area. Nothing suspicious about that. It does sound strange that a sales yard has no hardstanding for a vetting. Not very professional. I feel for the vet somewhat here. I have had an eventer who dished like crazy, but had a FEI career and competed sound until he was 20. Toe-in conformation usually accompanies a dish.

You say lameness was present at the vetting, but then that Bute doesn't affect the movement. Horses that dish more one side than the other do have asymmetrical movement, without it being lame. You say that the sidetone can be easily felt and seen now, well, we had one whose sidetone was enormous at 4 years old, not there at 3, so they can and do grow relatively quickly. I don't dispute that one will likely have been there, but with a dishing horse, a smaller sidebone, horse showing resistance (which could be for many reasons other than lameness) I think it may be difficult to say the vet was devious or negligent.

I presume the sidebone was not quite as huge on X ray 6 months ago as you say that it was not identified at first, presumably with your own vet? So, 6 months ago 2 vets missed it, one of which was definitely working for you. Also, you rode the horse and thought it sound.

I am not saying that you are wrong, just that I would be surprised if you were able to prove fraud or negligence.

The sidebone is the same size at three months in as it is now at 6 the shape of the foot shows it was there pre purchase. (That typical ridge on one side) The horse flicks this one foot which I brought to the attention of the vet at vetting and said nothing to worry about. I also offered x rays and was told no need! I’m upset this wasn’t brought to my attention as I wouldn’t have brought the horse for eventing.

 

[Abi90]

Been following this. Is the horse actually not fit for it’s job full stop? I was under the impression that side bone causes lameness whilst active but settles and it’s not so bad?

I know it’s not ideal at all but as you intend to keep the horse perhaps it’s worth looking at management avenues. I know of horses with sidebone that do everything they were bought for but owners just have to be careful with ground and pick venues carefully.

My mare has Ringbone, but is not lame on it, it causes her bother in the mud but she’s fine in the summer. She competes still, I just have to manage her carefully.

I’m not saying that the horse was sold as fit for purpose if it isn’t but if you’re intent on keeping it then don’t necessarily write it off as a field ornament

 

[[149293]]

Been following this. Is the horse actually not fit for it’s job full stop? I was under the impression that side bone causes lameness whilst active but settles and it’s not so bad?

I know it’s not ideal at all but as you intend to keep the horse perhaps it’s worth looking at management avenues. I know of horses with sidebone that do everything they were bought for but owners just have to be careful with ground and pick venues carefully.

My mare has Ringbone, but is not lame on it, it causes her bother in the mud but she’s fine in the summer. She competes still, I just have to manage her carefully.

I’m not saying that the horse was sold as fit for purpose if it isn’t but if you’re intent on keeping it then don’t necessarily write it off as a field ornament

Yes I have taken shoes off and he is a little better also having some steroid injections. I will be trying to get him right. It’s been going on since I got him though which is 6 months so quite a while.

 

[[149293]]

My vets were in the area but told to use

no I didn’t wait at all. I called them straight away. My vet hoped it was a bruise hence it’s gone on. Lots of videos from early on.
it gets referred to the vds.
Not much more that can be done now apart from wait. I can’t see my insurance paying as this was pre existing

The complaint was made to the practice, they then refer to the vds and you deal with the vds directly to get a resolution. This is standard procedure. Complaining to the RCVS is another thing all together.