Larson Traps

[twiggy2]

Lots of support for the use of Larsen traps, but very little condemnation from the Larsen trap supporters of the design of trap in the OP?

You’d crack on and use similar yourselves?

Its not support so much as a lack of options, no other traps are legally allowed.
The traps pictured are tiny and lack adequate shade imo, most of ours a big, as in you could stand a horse or 2 in them, no sure the bird finds that any less stressful though as they are still confined.

 

[twiggy2]

We live on a SSSI with some rare ground nesting birds. There are lots of jackdaws and magpies but everyone seems to manage. We did have a nest of blackbirds disappear last in our garden year but it could have been squirrels magpies or jackdaws or sadly local cats. I understand farmers need to protect livestock but surely there are more humane ways.
The small birds round here are doing fine as are the nightjar and Dartford warblers.

We were doing OK till 2 yrs or so ago when we had an influx of corvids and a seagull numbers shot up the impact on other bird numbers has been shocking in its speed

 

[palo1]

Lots of support for the use of Larsen traps, but very little condemnation from the Larsen trap supporters of the design of trap in the OP?

You’d crack on and use similar yourselves?

We live on a SSSI with some rare ground nesting birds. There are lots of jackdaws and magpies but everyone seems to manage. We did have a nest of blackbirds disappear last in our garden year but it could have been squirrels magpies or jackdaws or sadly local cats. I understand farmers need to protect livestock but surely there are more humane ways.
The small birds round here are doing fine as are the nightjar and Dartford warblers.

Being in an SSSI absolutely doesn't preclude the killing/management of other species - Larsen traps are a tool that may be needed situationally in any place where corvids are causing issues. There are very few other practical options in reality.

I don't like them myself but we use them in a very limited way here to protect ground nesting birds and young lambs. Once the magpies realise about the trap they seem less bold ime and I have no qualms killing a magpie to save a curlew, marsh tit, house Sparrow, young house martin, golden plover or lapwing. The Ravens are free to hunt larks as they are absolutely plentiful here. We aim to be beneficial managers of our land - not 'hands off' nor 'kill anything that is a nuisance to us'.

 

[marmalade76]

There are no game birds where our ones are, they are to protect the ewes and lambs from being predated upon by corvids, if ewes are stuck in their backs corvids can and do start pecking at their anus and the fleshy underside of the tail, sometimes they continue until they pull out the insides of the ewes or lambs or they die from loss of blood, they will also remove lambs eyes or tongies whilst they are still alive if they are weak and unable to get up and run. We lost 2 good gimmers to crows this year when the soft fleshy side in front of the stifle was opened up and caused the guts to spill out, another has managed to carry a lamb to term with a herniation from this.
We have 4 ewes with half tails and ewes with one eye missing due to corvids.
They also (along with seagulls) predate on ground nesting birds such as wagtails, oyster catchers and curlews taking eggs and young.

Not just ground nesting birds, I watched a magpie eating the baby blackbirds from a nest in my back garden, just looked up from doing the washing up and there it was on my lawn. They also had the baby swallows in my stable last year and not only had eggs out of my henhouse but also eggs stored in the tack room too (yes, caught on camera). Wish someone would put a Larson trap rounds here, there's too many and they're too bold. I've not had a problem with crows, though, only magpies.

 

[Equi]

I have a group of jackdaws that live here. They have destroyed the eves of my shed and leave unbelievable amounts of poo over the whole place. The smell is awful and it’s a bit alfred Hitchcock to walk nearby. We have tried various methods to discourage them but they don’t care about that. They are regularly found on the backs of my ponies pulling out hair in shedding season but they have never yet came into the stables and feed room (where the swollow nest) or came anywhere near the chicken house either. I’d rather they were not here, but I’m also not going to do anything about it. I have had to dispatch a few that have gotten injured/bashed into windows but I could never just take a healthy one out.

Every single one is called jack dawson.

 

[I'm Dun]

I agree they are intelligent and social birds but how else do numbers get controlled?
They do a lot of harm to wildlife.

Humanely, theres a multitude of ways that don't involve torturing a sentient being that has such strong social skills and intelligence.

 

[I'm Dun]

The covid species are predators, they absolutely decimate nest, egg and small birds. It is not possible to encourage the food level species without controlling apex predators. We celebrate red kites but afaik, every colony is artificially fed. There’s not enough food levels to sustain our obsession with covids/ birds of prey. We are a funny lot sometimes.

The red kites I see most days arent artificially fed. Im very close to where they were first reintroduced but that stopped long ago.

Just had a quick look, red kits arent fed by people and its actively discouraged. Theres plenty of things for them to eat.

Six reasons not to feed red kites

The Chilterns Conservation Board discourages feeding red kites. Here are some of the reasons why.

www.chilterns.org.uk

 

[HopOnTrot]

They were used at my old yard to protect nesting birds on marshland.

To confirm, farmers cannot shoot crows/magpies but the traps are legal?

 

[palo1]

They were used at my old yard to protect nesting birds on marshland.

To confirm, farmers cannot shoot crows/magpies but the traps are legal?

Farmers can only shoot crows etc if all other methods have failed. Most, but not all farmers have a gun too, where any farmer can buy a Larsen trap. An air rifle is not sufficient for the task and it's actually very difficult and time consuming to shoot crows. The risk of wounding is high.

 

[palo1]

Humanely, theres a multitude of ways that don't involve torturing a sentient being that has such strong social skills and intelligence.

I wonder what those ways are? I hate seeing a call bird in a trap tbh and we tend to kill the call bird and replace it when we use them to try to reduce the stress that we know is there. It is horrible seeing the injuries and destruction they cause too as a form of balance to that.

 

[misst]

We've lots of red kites here and they are definitely not fed by humans. Buzzards too and kestrels. They all find plenty to eat.

 

[marmalade76]

We've lots of red kites here and they are definitely not fed by humans. Buzzards too and kestrels. They all find plenty to eat.

Plenty of those round here and peregrines nesting on the Abbey, loads of owls too.

 

[misst]

Oh owls, I never see them but hear them a lot. It's always nice to know they're there. Cuckoos are another we hear a lot this time of year, one wakes me every morning but I've never seen them.

 

[twiggy2]

Not just ground nesting birds, I watched a magpie eating the baby blackbirds from a nest in my back garden, just looked up from doing the washing up and there it was on my lawn. They also had the baby swallows in my stable last year and not only had eggs out of my henhouse but also eggs stored in the tack room too (yes, caught on camera). Wish someone would put a Larson trap rounds here, there's too many and they're too bold. I've not had a problem with crows, though, only magpies.

No that's very true we dont see the destruction to the other birds here and the corvids dont go in the sheds unless it's for the lambs feed

Humanely, theres a multitude of ways that don't involve torturing a sentient being that has such strong social skills and intelligence.

Educate me as I really don't know of multiples of ways to get rid of corvids that are legal

Oh owls, I never see them but hear them a lot. It's always nice to know they're there. Cuckoos are another we hear a lot this time of year, one wakes me every morning but I've never seen them.

Ah cuckoo's they have massively reduced in jumpers here too in the last 3yrs too

 

[twiggy2]

They were used at my old yard to protect nesting birds on marshland.

To confirm, farmers cannot shoot crows/magpies but the traps are

 

[Dave's Mam]

Farmers haven't been able to shoot corvids for a few years now due to the change in the gun licence. They no longer fall under general use.

 

[I'm Dun]

I wonder what those ways are? I hate seeing a call bird in a trap tbh and we tend to kill the call bird and replace it when we use them to try to reduce the stress that we know is there. It is horrible seeing the injuries and destruction they cause too as a form of balance to that.

But the injuries and destruction are their natural behaviours. Locking them in a tiny cage and using them as bait to catch others is barbaric. The numbers needing to be caught must be huge otherwise how does it work? Surely if you take out 10, then 10 more just replace them?

Theres some suggestions for ethical control here. Its not something I know a lot about, but there are always other ways that don't involve the torture of one animal to catch another.

Corvids - Control, Management & Prevention - MBC Bird & Pest Control Dorset & Hampshire

Corvids – Rooks, Crows, Jackdaws, Magpies and Jays Corvids are all part of the Corvidae family and are considered to be a pest bird species, all are on the general … Read More

www.lesterbirdandpest.co.uk

 

[9tails]

There are a lot of magpies around my home, even though it's pretty urban but with 50 acres of allotments behind my house. That said, there's also a lot of other birds around too. Small house sparrows, blue tits, great tits, starlings and blackbirds galore, as well as wood pigeons and crows. So I'm not buying that corvids are decimating the small bird population, because my bird feeders get cleared out daily by a variety of bird species.

 

[palo1]

But the injuries and destruction are their natural behaviours. Locking them in a tiny cage and using them as bait to catch others is barbaric. The numbers needing to be caught must be huge otherwise how does it work? Surely if you take out 10, then 10 more just replace them?

Theres some suggestions for ethical control here. Its not something I know a lot about, but there are always other ways that don't involve the torture of one animal to catch another.

Corvids - Control, Management & Prevention - MBC Bird & Pest Control Dorset & Hampshire

Corvids – Rooks, Crows, Jackdaws, Magpies and Jays Corvids are all part of the Corvidae family and are considered to be a pest bird species, all are on the general … Read More

www.lesterbirdandpest.co.uk

Literally none of those suggested control methods would be possible for many farmers. A falconer is not cheap, probably couldn't attend regularly if you could find one and may impact negatively on ground nesting birds as they would be seen as much a threat as the corvids. Most of the suggested controls are for buildings rather than open fields/pasture/open ground. A kite might work for a short time but crows and their family are way too intelligent to be put off for long I think. Regular disturbance is helpful but it's impossible to be everywhere as often as is needed.

 

[druid]

Yes, we do use Larsens although we run more ladder traps. Mine have dark green plastic roofing over the call bird compartment.

Generally we don't actually use call birds, mostly baited with quail eggs or a small carcass. Call birds tend to be for when we have a trap savy or wary bird that we're trying to deal with

We trap/cull to protect endangered native ground nesting species.

 

[palo1]

But the injuries and destruction are their natural behaviours. Locking them in a tiny cage and using them as bait to catch others is barbaric. The numbers needing to be caught must be huge otherwise how does it work? Surely if you take out 10, then 10 more just replace them?

Theres some suggestions for ethical control here. Its not something I know a lot about, but there are always other ways that don't involve the torture of one animal to catch another.

Corvids - Control, Management & Prevention - MBC Bird & Pest Control Dorset & Hampshire

Corvids – Rooks, Crows, Jackdaws, Magpies and Jays Corvids are all part of the Corvidae family and are considered to be a pest bird species, all are on the general … Read More

www.lesterbirdandpest.co.uk

I agree with your point about the natural/unnatural behaviours and stresses. In my experience,magpies get to realise when/where there is a trap and tend to move on, at least temporarily, or they modify their behavior. We absolutely don't use a trap regularly - just when the numbers and behaviour are a problem - usually in the Spring and then we might go months without any issues and no need for any control measures.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Are they on a public right of way?!

 

[palo1]

Not sure about England but up here you have to apply for a general licence and it covers most if not all corvids, I believe you only get a license to shoot 2 at each application and you have to provide evidence that they are doing harm to support your application.

In England the law allows for 'reasonable' control where you can demonstrate that other measures, such as use of a bird scarer or kite have failed. No one has ever asked us to demonstrate other methods tbh but I know that the police have investigated where large numbers of Corvids have allegedly been killed.

 

[exracehorse]

Are they on a public right of way?!

No. Private land. That we have permission to ride. Except when it’s shooting season and pheasants are out x

 

[poiuytrewq]

No. Private land. That we have permission to ride. Except when it’s shooting season and pheasants are out x

That makes sense! I did wonder! I have the same.

 

[twiggy2]

In England the law allows for 'reasonable' control where you can demonstrate that other measures, such as use of a bird scarer or kite have failed. No one has ever asked us to demonstrate other methods tbh but I know that the police have investigated where large numbers of Corvids have allegedly been killed.

I have just checked and its only ravens that you need a general licence for, my mistake, the rest as the same as England, I will delete my other post so I don't give others the wrong info.

 

[twiggy2]

But the injuries and destruction are their natural behaviours. Locking them in a tiny cage and using them as bait to catch others is barbaric. The numbers needing to be caught must be huge otherwise how does it work? Surely if you take out 10, then 10 more just replace them?

Theres some suggestions for ethical control here. Its not something I know a lot about, but there are always other ways that don't involve the torture of one animal to catch another.

Corvids - Control, Management & Prevention - MBC Bird & Pest Control Dorset & Hampshire

Corvids – Rooks, Crows, Jackdaws, Magpies and Jays Corvids are all part of the Corvidae family and are considered to be a pest bird species, all are on the general … Read More

www.lesterbirdandpest.co.uk

The suggestions are on there are not practical for open ground they are more aimed at buildings, we have bird scarers/bangers and also an inflatable scarecrow thing and the birds just ignore it after a few hrs.

 

[poiuytrewq]

I don’t think I’m fluffy. But I really dislike them. I dislike a lot of countryside really.

 

[palo1]

I don’t think I’m fluffy. But I really dislike them. I dislike a lot of countryside really.

Yes, there are lots of things in this world that are really unpleasant - in the city and the countryside. I guess the issues with corvids and thus, the current controls, are particularly difficult in the countryside - that is where lambs and ground nesting birds are so...
I think it's good to try to have open, honest discussion - there is already enough of a divide and lack of understanding between rural and urban/suburban communities, yet we all need both!

 

[ycbm]

I'm confused. The first time I ever heard about a Larsen trap was on this forum, after moving away from hill sheep farming country where everyone around me lambed outdoors. There were masses of crows/rooks which nested in the little spinneys, nobody trapped them. I would normally see them sitting on the roof of my barn every day. The occasional weak lamb or sick ewe was attacked and although it's not nice to see, it is nature. We had a ton of ground nesting birds and "ground nesting" hare, too.

So what is it that means some farmers "need" to use Larsen taps and others don't?
.