Lazy or unmotivated dressage horse help

[rowy]

I have a Hanoverian mare, 8 years old this year.
She's always been relatively lazy at home- she's responsive to my aids but wants to put in minimal effort, especially when the exercise involves more effort. She's bred for dressage so finds certain movements easy i.e. piaffe, walk to canter, traver and collection. But if she finds a particular movement more difficult i.e. shoulder in and leg yield she will put no effort in whatsoever and ignore my leg.

Last year she was often ultra sharp at certain venues to the point i could hardly put my leg on and she would explode in medium canter although our marks were always ok (competing at elementary level). In September at the area finals she was absolutely awful so i decided to look into a calmer and started her on coolcore from equifeast. She gets this alongside half a scoop of rolled oats, happy hood molasses free hifi (we found out sugar makes her spooky, even just an apple) and ad lib hay.

So far this year we have been to two competition and the regional championship and she has been soooo lazy and dead to my leg! This has meant our marks have been worst than last year even though she's not making as many big mistakes. I had to literally carry us around the regionals ele test as no schooling whips were allowed. I did give her a syringe calmer on each of these outings (Vetrocalm) and where she would usually be spooky she wasn't at all, even in the scary indoor at Addington. However, i think her being ultra lazy might be more detrimental to our results than when she was hot and sharp!

She's not like a normal lazy horse (i used to own a welsh x that hated dressage and was the definition of lazy).
1. If i carry a schooling whip, I don't even have to use it she goes forward off my leg straight away.
2. Moves she finds easy she'll react straight away i.e. walk to canter or halt to canter. However she finds shoulder in and leg yield more difficult and will completely ignore my leg, especially in a test.
3. She is noticeably more lazy when in a test and less reactive. She's usually OK in the warm up even without a whip.

I did think it was just a schooling thing but i took her out for a hack today and she was so slow. She wasn't so lazy that i had to use my legs but usually she's marching on hacks, when trotting towards home she'll want to do medium trot but today she was just doing riding school trot. Even took her in a big open field for a canter where she will usually go really forward and really pull to go faster but today she just did a slow steady canter up the hill with loose reins.

Any ideas? I'm going to get her bloods tested and i'm going to try her on an electrolyte supplement to see if this helps as well as upping her oats slightly as she has lost weight recently where they have exhausted all grass in her field now. Her coat is looking a bit more dull than usual. She's not in season currently and never seems to really change when in season anyway.
I am trying her back on a slice of haylage to see if it makes any difference. Sugar usually sends her spooky rather than more forward but i'm wondering if i can use this spooky energy more positively in her work.

 

[coss]

Could it b that her coat is changing (winter to summer)? and that is taking some of her energy out? I've got one horse (gelding) who is pretty sharp most of the year and very forwards/active to ride but he doesn't have the same spark when he's casting and last year I had to drastically up his feed for a couple of months to give him the extra energy then he was back onto the low calorie feeds.

 

[be positive]

I think there are 2 issues here which are probably linked but may not be, 1 she shuts down and ignores your leg in certain movements, it may be she finds them difficult or doesn't understand but this needs to be worked through as long as it is not caused by something physical, until she responds to your aids at all times she is not on the aids so 2 becomes an issue, she spooks and overreacts when she is in a situation where she is more stressed and you can then struggle to get the leg on, I am not keen on calmers as an answer to what I see as mainly a schooling issue, get her properly engaged and you should be able to ride her sharp moments more easily.
It is not as simple as it sounds which you well know but it should be what you are aiming for in all schooling sessions, don't make things too tough for her but aim to get her moving from your aids just one step at a time then reward her until she can link more together, accept and reward correct reactions repeat any that are not good without making a big deal out of it.

I would get her checked over by the vet if she is not looking great and if you haven't already I would get a good physio to check her just to make sure there is not something going on that makes it hard for her to move sideways, a horse in discomfort can be extra sharp when under pressure, sometimes they shut down, it can be hard to know which it is with some.

 

[daffy44]

I think getting her bloods done is a good start, you need to be sure that she is physically well, I agree with be positive, I'd have her checked out by a physio too, so you can be sure she isnt in pain.

Once your sure she is well, I'd stop with the syringe calmer at the very least, personally I'd stop all calmers and see what she is like, but I can understand if you'd rather not do that straightaway. The thing is that lazy and over reactive are both sides of the same coin, it just says she is not on your aids and not thinking forwards, I would go back to basics and make sure that you do simple things well, and that you always get a reaction from her, so you can be sure you can use a light aid and she responds. Horses that over react bully the rider into not daring to touch them, she is training you, not the other way round. I know this will take time, and it requires a lot of patience and self discipline, bt it sounds like calmers are masking the real issue, which is a schooling problem.

 

[rowy]

Sorry I should have said in the original post: she sees a physio every 6-8 weeks and saw her this Monday just gone and physio said she is feeling fab (she has a tendency to get easily tight as she’s quite short in the back but all the exercises we are currently doing and keeping her working over her back into the contact is preventing this from happening.)
She also sees the dentist every 6 months and was done fairly recently and the saddler usually every 6 months or earlier if I think she’s changed shape and again she has seen him fairly recently.

She is a very complicated ride, not easy at all as she will do anything to avoid working hard. I’ve had her since I backed her as a 4 year old and she has tried various different things over the years to avoid working properly. She’s quite flashy s her preference is to wave her front legs around rather than work through into the contact . The more recent problem i’ve Had since i’ve Cracked her contact and getting her working through over her back from behind is that she’s lazy. She will also for example always spook at the gate when I’m having a lesson to try and get out of working. I always work her through this and don’t let her get away with it.

 

[DabDab]

I agree with Daffy - it all sounds like the same evasion, just different tricks. When she feels like leering about like an idiot, she does, when she feels like slugging about, she does that. In general it just doesn't sound like she's approaching the work you're asking her to do with a positive, productive mindset. And reading between the lines, I suspect that whether she is lazy or sharp, you the rider are ending up doing more work than her when you ride.

I would do away with the calmers too - though it's possible she has a magnesium deficiency if she's reacting to them that much. So maybe you could supplement with mag ox and salt instead?

Training wise it's hard to say, but it definitely sounds like you need a bit of a mindset change with her. It's so easy when we have one horse that we ride all the time to fall into weird training cycles, and then you have to step back and recalibrate the training relationship a little (I do it all the time ). Without seeing you both in the flesh, I'm not sure whether you will have to become much more emphatic with her or.... But I'm sure you have an instructor who can advise

 

[milliepops]

Training wise it's hard to say, but it definitely sounds like you need a bit of a mindset change with her. It's so easy when we have one horse that we ride all the time to fall into weird training cycles, and then you have to step back and recalibrate the training relationship a little (I do it all the time ). Without seeing you both in the flesh, I'm not sure whether you will have to become much more emphatic with her or.... But I'm sure you have an instructor who can advise

Lots of good advice above but this bit ^^ rang especially true for me. I have 2 idle spookers and I need to ride them both differently but the effect is the same, basically coming at the problem side on.

The Welsh who.can be like a slug through tension has been a tricky one to work out but now I use exercises she likes to develop her reactions... if her brain is on side then her body will follow and she stops looking for monsters.

The wb who crabs and minces around at the start of the session, I have to be patient and let exercises such as transitions and turns do their work, not kicking and booting because it has no effect. When she lets go she's forward, through and nicely on the aids and then I can feel a spooky moment coming and prevent it

 

[ycbm]

I agree with everything everyone has said above, but as a precaution I would have her back x rayed for kissing spines. Your description of her history since you backed her at four would, having owned one born with the condition myself, make me very suspicious.

 

[JillA]

Sounds a silly question but are you reinforcing what she does and does right? Some horses will work much much harder for well timed praise, wither rub or pat, if they don't get something they don't enjoy their work. The things she does well I imagine she knows that, can you shape the things she doesn't do so well to ignite her enthusiasm.

 

[ester]

I would do away with the calmers too - though it's possible she has a magnesium deficiency if she's reacting to them that much. So maybe you could supplement with mag ox and salt instead?

The equifeast is calcium based, I don't really believe their scientific basis for this and I can't seem to find the breakdown of their vit/min premix either. Essentially it isn't a product I would feed.

 

[DabDab]

The equifeast is calcium based, I don't really believe their scientific basis for this and I can't seem to find the breakdown of their vit/min premix either. Essentially it isn't a product I would feed.

Really? Calcium?! What an odd thing to base a calmer on

 

[rowy]

I've tried adding magnesium to her diet but it made no difference/ made her worse if anything. I spoke to the advisor at equifeast and they said the feed i was feeding her before (topspec comprehensive balancer) was high in magnesium as well as a lot of other rubbish and makes quite a lot of horses hyper.

I highly doubt she has anything wrong with her physically (i.e. kissing spines) because she is a complete Diva and will let the whole world know if she's in any sort of discomfort. Once she has a pulled muscle in her hind quarters and before we realised she had it, i rode she had the biggest fit when ridden, i literally couldn't do anything with her, consequently got the physio out who diagnosed it. She acts similarly with the saddle, bits and nosebands. If she had been born with kissing spine, i think i would be dead by now

What is Cool, Calm & Collected (CCC)?
The active ingredient in CCC is patented Chelated Calcium technology, we believe this has an influence on cellular signalling.
This is a process used all across the body for many reasons including; initiating the release of neurotransmitters and ensuring ‘messages’ are passed on correctly from one nerve cell to another.
So effectively, the CCC is optimising brain function; a properly working brain means horses are less distracted, concentrate better, make better decisions and analyse risk - calming is the inevitable result for most horses.

 

[ycbm]

I highly doubt she has anything wrong with her physically (i.e. kissing spines) because she is a complete Diva and will let the whole world know if she's in any sort of discomfort. Once she has a pulled muscle in her hind quarters and before we realised she had it, i rode she had the biggest fit when ridden, i literally couldn't do anything with her, consequently got the physio out who diagnosed it. She acts similarly with the saddle, bits and nosebands. If she had been born with kissing spine, i think i would be dead by now

Or maybe, like mine, she was born with them, and has lived all her life in a state of discomfort which she thinks is normal, and only 'overreacts' when something else is added to the mix and she can no longer cope. Initially, mine only ever kicked off at the white letters on a dressage arena.

 

[ester]

'we believe' is such a quality statement isn't it :rolleyes3:

I have seen some of the advice they have given to customers and I have found it generally concerning, the research they quote is very old and seems to go against the NRC recommendations with regards to mineral proportions.

I do agree with them that topspec is a bit rubbish too.

 

[SEL]

I know another warmblood who is a challenge when their diet isn't right. You say she reacts to sugar, yet your diet is pretty high in starch - which converts to sugar. How about knocking everything on the head apart from hay for 2 weeks and seeing what happens?

 

[rowy]

I only found she had a negative effect with items high in direct sugar I.e. apples, carrots, chopped grass, haylage, molasses

 

[muddy_grey]

I would definitely forget the instant calmer. How often do you get out? What is she like if you do arena hire? The more we get out the better mine is. My current mare can be very spooky and sharp and I know that feeling of not wanting to put your leg on well. When she is away from home and super sharp it is better if I keep a light leg contact all the time. I think it comforts/supports her and then when you use your leg it is an slight increase in pressure rather than new contact. Not sure if that makes sense. I tried the equifeast calmer and I am not sure it made much difference. She is now on hack-up, but she is also on boxrest with controlled walking so not sure I can be a fair judge of it, but she does seem a bit better than before.
My last mare was quite laid back by nature and it took me a while to get her diet right. She was a good doer which didn't help, but I found an allround vit & mineral supplement really helped. I also had to be super strict with myself whenever I rode and never except her not being on the aids. She always did what was asked, but given the option it was all a bit blah. I would ditch the whip or at least not have one for the whole session

 

[rowy]

Problem fixed! On recommendation from a friend a ditched my schooling whip for a jump stick and ditched my spurs. Then whenever she didn’t listen to my leg I hit the saddle with the whip to make a noise. Within 5 mins she felt super hot and slight nudge from my leg we were in medium! We did the best shoulder in and leg yield to date and I was putting in no effort at all just sitting there and containing the new found energy. Just goes to show she was taking the P!
Still getting her bloods done just in case. Thanks for all your recommendations!

 

[Tr0uble]

Elf is a lazy toad at times - she comes across as buzzy and at times hot, but I've discovered recently that this is actually a diversion tactic to fool me into sitting quietly and not putting my leg on etc.

Actually when she comes out hot, she also tends to sit just a little behind my leg aids, and I've had to brave up and give her a tap when she's hot and buzzy, even if it's met with a hump and a grunt and a squeal....if I do that, she realises I'm not going to be backed off by a sharp front from her and she works really well!

She will, throughout the session, almost 'dare' me to get after her, by getting her back up and having a little leap/buck/squeal....if I stop her, she wins....so I've learned to sit tight and kick on....she only tries it once if I do that!