Leading a bolshy one. I really need help now.

[cremedemonthe]

Have you tried this

http://kempcontroller.co.uk/

 

[TheresaW]

Time of day has made no difference, sometimes he comes in after dark, yesterday, was about half 3, so still daylight. He's not usually first in, as Mac and Bren can be bullies at the gate, but I never bring him last either, although he is perfectly happy in the field on his own. If I have someone with me, him and Dolly come in together, like yesterday, or I will bring him in, then go back for Dolly.

 

[PuzzlePiece]

My youngster has always had a streak in him since I bought him as a rising 2 yr old. He would set his neck away from you and go. He would always try it with new people. I mainly used a rope over his nose which seemed to work until he went through the stroppy teenage phase as a 16.2 3 yr old. He started trying to do it on the lunge too so I resulted to a chain over the nose, a few tries and he's never done it again. I personally don't like using a lunge line with a chain incase they get loose and it caught around their legs. A lead rope had always been sufficient for me even with stallions. Now I usually just clip lead rope to near side ring on head collar rather than under the chin and he's learnt his lesson. Good luck, like others gave said get professional help if you need it.

 

[rowan666]

I have one that does the same on occasion also with no trigger. I find practicing leading her round the field with lunge line and armed with lunge whip so when she starts i let her run but on my terms in the form of a good lunging session and she is only aloud to stop when i allow her to. because she is a fat lazy cow she soon realises her life is easier when she knows her place!.
I dont know if this would work for you but it works for us.
I find if i lunge her before leading her out anywhere it really helps to get her brain in work and listen to me mode! Lol
good luck!

 

[TheresaW]

try www.martynbeerhorsetraining.co.uk

I have just emailed him as well.

 

[Supertrooper]

Theresa W - reading your original post is just like reading about the shire x I shared! He was 800kg though and you hadn't a hope in hell of hanging on once he went. I would never of lead him on the road.

He was no better in a bridle and in the end we resorted to a 'be nice' halter which taught him to rear. Biggest mistake we ever made getting him that as once he started rearing I completely lost all confidence with him on the ground.

He did improve with the rearing once we stopped using the 'be nice' and he then when out on loan with a guy who wasn't remotely bothered about what he was like to lead.

It's taken me a very long time to have confidence with leading any horses again as I'm always expecting them to take off any second. With B it wasn't so much the taking off that bothered me but the catching him again as he would be very defensive and bolshy once re-caught. He had the leading problem from the home before and in hindsight I don't think he'd ever been taught leading properly when he was a youngster and it became much worse once he realised how strong he was.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Always keep the horse's head turned slightly towards you when leading, so if it 'goes' it runs round you rather than away. DO NOT use long ropes/lungelines etc, you need to keep the horse as close to you as possible. I give treats for good manners and in this situation I would give a treat at every stage, so standing at the yard gate, standing at the side of the road waiting politely to cross and again when you have reached the other side safely. I would always have another person if I were crossing a road with a badly mannered horse.
In this case, I would ride the horse to and from the field until I had done a lot more work on its manners.

 

[HBM1]

Thankyou for all the ideas. I haven't tried leading him in his bridle, but we did go to a show in the summer, and I took him into 2 in-hand classes. He buggered off in both classes, in his bridle. I truly believe he does it because he can.

Thankfully, at the moment, the field he is in, is on the yard side of the road. There is a gate at the top of the track, which I always make sure is closed when I get him, and tonight, he walked up fine, did halts, stepped back when I asked him. We got through the gate, and as we turned the corner to go to the stables, he just went. My son was leading my mare with us, have tried bringing him in front, behind, and on his own. Makes no difference.

I can try practicing in his field, and we have a good school that I am going to try working with him in as well.

Are you bringing him in to feed him as well? I wonder if it may be worth catching him, then feeding him half his feed so he isn't so food focussed when he is coming in - at least to try to break this habit of bolting off.

 

[goodtimes]

I used a stallion chain over my horse's nose today after he reared up in hand yesterday. Led like butter wouldn't melt and I didn't have to 'use' it.

 

[TheresaW]

He only comes in at night during winter, is out 24/7 during the summer. He has his dinner and hay when he comes in at night once work is finished. He wasn't so bad in the summer, but still did it on occasion.

Have just had a look on eBay at stallion chains. There are a few on there.

Turned out like a poppet today, but he us usually much better behaved going out than coming in. Will see what later brings.

 

[putasocinit]

for his own safety, put a lip chain on him, get a decent leather or web headcollar, buy a lead with a chain on it, clip the chain to the headcollar, it goes over his head and then through the hole on the other side of the headcollar by the cavesson then put the chain under his top lip above his teeth, this is how Frankel and most of Henry Cecils horses and horses in the USA are lead esp at the races, it doesnt hurt until he messes about then it hurts like hell, a bit like a twitch it sets of endorphins.

 

[AengusOg]

I keep hearing people on here talk about training, so please tell me how.

Please, someone help me.

These two sentences are the crux of your post.

You asked for advice on training. Most of the responses you've had so far have been suggestions for methods of control, some of them pretty severe, based on pain and fear.

The horse is controlled through his mind with kindness, understanding and trust.

Your groundwork is where your problem lies. You may do a lot with him, but it must be fairly ineffective. Good groundwork produces a horse who wants to be with you and is compliant and habitual in his responses.

You could do with some help with your pressure and release technique. It requires a feel for the amount and duration of applied pressure, and a good sense of timing on the release of that pressure. It calls for an understanding of management of any resistance in the horse, and self-discipline. Once a horse understands how pressure and release works, he will always seek to be free of pressure. If the work has been done well, the horse becomes attentive to his handler, will be light to handle, disinclined to pull away and predictable in his responses.

Yanking him around in pain-inducing head gear, poking him with sharp objects, or applying chain to his gums will only paper over the cracks in his education and lead to someone getting hurt.

 

[Urban Horse]

^This^.

Every movement a horse makes starts between the ears.... and it's easier to direct a thought that it is to drive, or stop, a horse. Folk desensitise horses to all manner of objects, but fail to understand that every time the horse feels the resistance/pain of a control device, he becomes desensitised to that too. If you stifle behaviour through a device, the behaviour doesn't disappear, but will reappear somewhere else in another form... usually at a time you find most inconvenient.

You should aim for a relationship where, no matter what the circumstances, he finds comfort in your presence... it is in the nature of the horse not to be continually seeking conflict, but rather to live a life of comparative peace. The herd that's in conflict gets eaten, because they're too busy infighting to notice the dangers, while the herd that lives in harmony and look out for each other, survive and thrive.

 

[Ladyinred]

Thank goodness. I was beginning to despair of this thread, then I came down this morning and found not one, but two posts that actually answer the question instead of trying to apply a bandaid to a broken leg!

 

[TheresaW]

Thankyou. I know it is a lack of respect for me, that is what I need to work on. I have the school booked for this afternoon, but it is the training I need help with. He walked out perfectly with me yesterday to go out, walked into the field nicely, waited for me to take his halter off, then off he went. Got him in yesterday afternoon, caught lovely, came out of field nicely, we walking up the track, then boom, he was gone. Gate was shut at the top, so couldn't go anywhere. Caught him again, he leapt around on end of lead rope, calmed him down. On the way in, I took him the long way around the yard, so of he got away again, he would be less likely to get to the road, we stopped to talk to another livery and I was talking to her about him. He stood with me, but was constantly nudging me, grabbing my coat, and she said again it was a complete lack of respect. How can work with this? I don't want to use gadgets, but I don't want him getting himself killed, or injuring someone else.

 

[TheresaW]

I know this isn't going to happen overnight, but it is getting to the point that I don't want to turn him out, as that means I have to bring him in. He isn't scared of me, when I'm in the field, he will walk around with me, wants fusses, again I don't treat him, so he's not really looking for food. I make him step back before I enter his stable and he will respect me in there. I leave him alone to eat his dinner, that is his time, although I know it wouldn't bother him if I rugged changed etc, whilst he was eating.

He isn't kicky, has only threatened me a couple of times when I first ever got him, and that was when I first got him and was grooming his legs, picking feet out. A few growls put a stop to that. He will occasionally now still lift a leg as I am grooming his belly, but never lashes out. He doesn't bare his teeth at me, never has, but has occasionally accidentally nipped when being mouthy. I don't let him mouth me, but again, how do I tell him "no"?

 

[saddlesore]

I agree with those who advise getting help from a NH person. Your horse has no respect for you and knows that you're not in charge. Someone needs to teach him that people are in charge and can move his feet at will, like a top horse would do. He needs to be taught to yield his quarters, stop and back up softly without force. This WILL fix your problems but you'll need a professional to help you get started.

 

[paulineh]

After reading through all threads ,like others I believe that ground work is needed to bring back that respect. When teaching my youngsters (Arabs) I always carry a schooling whip NOT to hit the horse but to use it to give me space. I use my voice a lot and the tone is important.

An Arab (in the show ring ) is controlled with a simple fine head piece and a chain behind the chin. This is an effective way of controlling them.

I use a 4 point control in training . This is reverse , left turn , right turn and forward. The Reverse is ,stand in front of your horse ,( I would use a long line) put some pressure on the lead line up by the clip and ask your horse to step back as soon as he has done that release the push , repeat this when asking the horse to turn left and right.when asking the horse to step forward again pull slightly and when he response release the pull. In time you will only need the lightest touch for the horse to respond. I would do that before you lead him out to the field and before you bring him in. I also do it in the stable. Using your hand to give him a push in the chest ask him to step back ,using the word back in time he will do it at word of command.

While leading him if you feel he is going to move off (pull away) when you don't want him too then do the four point this gets his attention on you.

You can always get someone with you and both lead him with you in control and the other person as backup

 

[avthechav]

Haven't read all the replies but if it has not been mentioned before clicker training is fab for this kind of thing. In a few short sessions I managed to stop my giant Bolshy warmblood from pushing out over me when I opened the stable door. My horse is also very food orientated and so I don't 'treat' him at all from my pockets as he turns in to a mugger, but clicker training is an excellent way of using positive reinforcement to subtlety shape the behaviour you want. This problem that you may have is that you need to get sorted fairly quickly if he is in danger of getting hurt when he gets away from you and you kind of build up the behaviour using the clicker. Booboos on here is fairly expert any may be able to help you and there is some fab literature on it.

 

[avthechav]

....also it's a fun way of spending time messing around with your horse, I used it for carrot stretching instead of luring him directly with the carrot. If I get t he clicker out now Ginge will go through his repertoire of actions until he does the one I want, I click him and then he gets rewarded. It's also stopped him mugging my pockets as he knows he only gets food to reward for something unrelated to food rather than taking it directly from my pocket.

 

[teabiscuit]

Clicker training has been mentioned avthechav.
Sorry OP, you can't train a horse by forum, it's useful for ideas, but you must decide the way forward.
Personally I'd use a combination of ground work as described by Pauline and aengus og, Clicker training and long reining.
Lots of ideas on the Internet to help you get started.

 

[Hippona]

Ol used to be mine and he has dragged me along face first through the mud before. He is a little **** when the mood takes him.
I would always carry a stick or hoofpick and keep it stuck where his shoulder joins his neck as he sets his neck away to ****** off. If he can't set his neck he loses half his strength. I used a stallion chain over his nose, too, but I was better off than Theresa as he lived out with me so coming in was not necessarily at feeding times, not an option for her as she is on a yard.

I employ my elbow into the neck/ shoulder and make sure the nose is bent towards you....they can't bog off this way.

 

[iAMASHOWJUMPER]

This thread is very interesting to me having always had horses with difficulties leading. The first was very different to my current and came with a habit of rearing in hand and coming down almost on top of you then scatting around and generally being a prat. With a 17hh tb coming down on you you have a problem! He also developed an attatchment to a mare in the field and if I went to get him in before she was in guarenteed he would try and rear and spin away from me. The trick with him was just to never let him get away with it whether in fear or not rearing is unacceptable. I never raised a hand to him just repetition, if he reared i would take him straight back round calm him down and lead him back past. If he reared again, repeat the process until he gets past without rearing. Once this has been achieved it was a matter of praise and more praise.

 

[iAMASHOWJUMPER]

My current horse is a friesian x welsh only 14.2 but boy is he a tank! He's also rising 6. When he first came he had absolutely no manners and trying to lead him sound very similar to you and your boy! I found the trick with him was repetition as well, however I dont have a main road by me. If there are other yards in your area it could be worth moving him to one where you could repeat things until he does as you ask without putting you himself or anyone else at risk? If not I would lead him in a lunge line gloves and hold on for dear life if he does go. To try and prevent him from go-ing in the first place an elbow in the crease of neck and his nose bent towards you the whole time would be my way of going about it. I dont think a chifney or chain will help if as you say he is resilient to all these methods as my boy also had no respect for a chifney, a bit, a stallionc chain, nothing like that worked! It was just a matter of holding on when he dragged and taking him straight back to where he came from (ie if he dragged when I was bringing him in I brought him back to the field gate) and repeating the process until he walked nicely, now I have no problems with him.

 

[iAMASHOWJUMPER]

Just to add the amount of mud we have at the moment can work to your advantage, it's much easier to ski in wet mud than dry!

 

[TheresaW]

Ha ha, with our mud, I could become a pro water skier!

We have had a reasonably good day today. I have mostly ignored him, which he hasn't liked, tied him up for a good groom, and every time he's tried to nuzzle me, rub on me etc, I have pushed him away and made him back up. I did lead him out and bring him in from field in chiffney, and took a whip with me. I lead him all around the yard. Did lots of stops, backing up, and didn't have to apply any pressure to his mouth at all. A couple of times he wouldn't back up, so I gently tapped his legs with the whip until he did.

I used the chiffney today as it was very windy at the yard, and although I'd booked the school, people were in there running late, so if I wanted him out for a decent amount of time, I couldn't wait.

I am looking at clicker training as a good way forward, I think it will suit him as he is very intelligent, and does get bored. I also think it isn't helped at the moment that turnout is restricted because of the wet fields, and hacking is almost non existent because the tracks are so muddy, and the short days, and he is getting a bit bored in the school.