Legalities of non paying liveries and getting rid etc..

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Da5912

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Having read a few horror stories just wondering on what the actual legalities are of this situation are.

I used to pay my livery back in the day month in advance. So when i hear stories of people at yards who hadn’t paid for months. Just wondering how thats possible.

We live onsite at our new yard.
Secuirity gate and long drive on entrance.

I guess if someone had an overdue bill and wanted to pack up and leave without being noticed they could break a fence and walk off with their horse / property etc..

Also what happens (a story I heard of recently) when they just stop coming to the yard to care for their horse.

And lastly how is it dealt with if they’re overdue and coming onto the yard being difficult.
 
My YO has had 4 horses abandoned since I've been there. For one of them, they were still paying livery but never coming up. Pony was on grass livery and YO put out hay in winter. I tracked down the owner and bought him, re-backed him and sold him on. Something about him just touched me. He was lovely. He'd not been visited for 5 years! The other 3 were owned by 1 family. They just stopped paying livery for about 3 months and then disappeared. YO served abandonment notices, sold 2 and kept one on the riding school where he still is. That was about 10 years ago.
 
It's happening at our yard as we speak. Horses abandoned in the field (we don't have 24/7 turn out in winter) and she once didn't come to see them in three weeks. We're lucky if she puts in an appearance once a week! Owes money left right and centre. She totally exploits people's love of horses who makes sure her ponies are fed and are safe. Yard owner has given her notice several times and then gets sob story and tears from the livery so she's given yet another chance. Yard owner way too soft in my mind but I guess she's stuck with them - she cant exactly show the ponies the door? Very sad case of a person bring totally incapable (for whatever reason) of keeping horses.
 
Some YO just let it happen and some are very proactive on it, my last yard had a far few in my time who just didn't pay/come up and they always looked after the horse but would get rid of the people after second month non-payment. They bought two horrendously skinny tbs off a new livery after they failed to put weight on and he tried to sell them to a meat man. owner was only coming up at about 9pm to throw a small net in (when questioned he said he was allergic to horses...wtf) they lost money on livery and then had two stables used up for months but the horses mattered not the money.
 
There was that yard a few years back that shot a horse whose owner was 3 weeks late with payment. And then dumped it on the owners lawn. Which was extreme but I'm not sure they were convicted when it went to court.
 
I’ve only known someone who racked up lots of debt. Ended up YO took the ponies and sold them on to reclaim some money.
 
Wow, such horror stories above.. lost for words.

My partner has said in this instance if money due for livery at beginning of month is say a week late. A week grace period is given. Then change code on gate for access (Although this could cost £100 with our gate servicing company as we’ve had to do it when newly moving into the property so it’s not an expense we’d want to repeat). And if they want re access they would need to cover that cost when they’ve paid they’re bill (late). Then perhaps if two weeks late or longer there be clause the horse could be sent to a sales yard off land or given away. He doesn’t beat about the bush. I think he just thinks the fear of a horse going off land would make someone think twice. As heard so many stories where like you say they they abuse the fact others would look out for the horse and its needs when they’re no. I mean everyone can fall on hard times but some of the horror stories i‘ve heard of where they aren’t paying they’re bills but still attending yard and being difficult just can’t be legally allowed can it?
Unless there’s a legal loop hole where the say one month notice still stands even from time of not paying. Which could infact give anyone who wishes to stop paying, a month notice afger they fail to pay and get a free months livery until they’re notice to leave date hits. If that makes sense.

With the types who perhaps still pay but don’t turn up to attend to horse. I’ve seen one or two yard rules on yard sites they openly say they expect owner to come up every two days or pay for extra services. (i.e. checks)

I’ve only ever had horse on full livery at a yard (where if i was away i knew full care of my horse was covered) or looked after my own at so been there everyday. So not fully sure what others do who aren’t in work, living out 24/7 etc and what they’re expected at minimum to do. But i always thought daily checks
 
Da5912 said:
Wow, such horror stories above.. lost for words.

My partner has said in this instance if money due for livery at beginning of month is say a week late. A week grace period is given. Then change code on gate for access (Although this could cost £100 with our gate servicing company as we’ve had to do it when newly moving into the property so it’s not an expense we’d want to repeat). And if they want re access they would need to cover that cost when they’ve paid they’re bill (late). Then perhaps if two weeks late or longer there be clause the horse could be sent to a sales yard off land or given away. He doesn’t beat about the bush. I think he just thinks the fear of a horse going off land would make someone think twice. As heard so many stories where like you say they they abuse the fact others would look out for the horse and its needs when they’re no. I mean everyone can fall on hard times but some of the horror stories i‘ve heard of where they aren’t paying they’re bills but still attending yard and being difficult just can’t be legally allowed can it?
Unless there’s a legal loop hole where the say one month notice still stands even from time of not paying. Which could infact give anyone who wishes to stop paying, a month notice afger they fail to pay and get a free months livery until they’re notice to leave date hits. If that makes sense.

With the types who perhaps still pay but don’t turn up to attend to horse. I’ve seen one or two yard rules on yard sites they openly say they expect owner to come up every two days or pay for extra services. (i.e. checks)

I’ve only ever had horse on full livery at a yard (where if i was away i knew full care of my horse was covered) or looked after my own at so been there everyday. So not fully sure what others do who aren’t in work, living out 24/7 etc and what they’re expected at minimum to do. But i always thought daily checks
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Does your OH own the off site sales livery?
I can’t imagine a sales livery a) accepting a horse from a known non payer b) accepting a horse handed to them by someone who doesn’t own it
I don’t imagine you’ll ever get back the cost of changing the gate code either
 
Meowy Catkin said:
I have a horrible feeling that it was the loaner who was late with the payment in that case.

Found this. https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/ry...ion-centre-owner-defends-actions-video-added/
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Gosh yes I'd forgotten the details. I remember being shocked at their own defence as much as anything - ie their plan to tether a horse in a garden for £30 of unpaid fees citing 'business's needs. And even more shocked that the place wasn't empty of all other liveries overnight!

OP I dont know what the law is but personally I would not go near a yard with a contract that said my horse would be sold on if I was 2 weeks late. Not because I ever am late but because I would deeply distrust anyone who even suggested such a thing. I would only ever livery with people who appear to like horses and do the right thing by them.
 
I am not a legal expert, but thought you have to serve an abandonment notice on them if the owner does not turn up. After 28 days the horse is yours?

Not sure how to get livery for one where the owner is still turning up! Possibly wait until they go out hacking and then lock the gate! I think you would then have to write off the money.
 
OP you have posted a few messages asking quite basic questions over the last few days about offering livery.

I think you and your OH should ask yourselves very seriously whether you have the knowledge and skills to offer livery and whether you want to open your home (by which I mean your land and area round your personal space) to strangers 7 days a week who will be coming and going with family members and friends and dogs (unless you specifically ban dogs on the yard) for many hours in the day.
i think if you do offer livery you have an obligation to be welcoming and accommodating to your customers within the boundaries of a reasonable contract.

My only experience of this is having a close friend’s horse on livery at my private yard. As I said she is a good friend but I found it uncomfortable to have her arrive when she wanted (which she was perfectly entitled to do) with her dogs (my bad - I should have made a no dogs rule) running around. Maybe I am a grumpy old bag to set in my ways but if this is your home foremost and a livery business secondary I would give this long and hard thought.
 
Ambers Echo said:
OP I dont know what the law is but personally I would not go near a yard with a contract that said my horse would be sold on if I was 2 weeks late. Not because I ever am late but because I would deeply distrust anyone who even suggested such a thing. I would only ever livery with people who appear to like horses and do the right thing by them.
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This absolutely.

CMcC said:
OP you have posted a few messages asking quite basic questions over the last few days about offering livery.

I think you and your OH should ask yourselves very seriously whether you have the knowledge and skills to offer livery
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This too.
 
I think some nasty comments here. Its an open thread to ask questions from all angles.

Grew up on a livery yard though obviously now later in life it’s all learning the logistics from a running side of it and hearing all sorts of different ways people do it.
I think Where some wouldn’t want others on their land going about their day at any time of day or say dogs around. Thats part of the atmosphere as i remember it and thats what we want. An open happy horsey atmosphere. So we’re not in that bracket. The lands big enough. Our home seperate enough. Either way, we love good honest people and animals probally a little more than people haha.
But won’t tolerate the odd repeat offenders that are said to be going about at present in the area swapping yards playing same games, not paying bills due or causing drama. And so wanted to ask how someone prepares themselves for that situation. Though you’d hope it would never arise.

It was all said tongue in cheek when conversing with a group of people about how they’d experienced a bad group of people (all related family members apparently) on one yard and how they were stuck with them, that my partner joked he would relocate they’re horse after a few weeks. To his sisters yard in the next town so when they came and no horse they’d realise bills can’t stand long term unpaid and they couldn’t still carry on as normal getting the back up of other paying liveries with their antics.
She has a backing and sales yard and alot more boxes. Like some have said there can be a clause that if after 28days noone turns up attend to horse or is but still not paying and causing trouble then the horse be rehomed etc. No ones land is a charity or trust to be abused unless its the unfortunate situation of someone honestly had trouble paying their bills. Everyone appreciates an honest person over someone who’s not had any intention to do the right thing. And clearly horses well being first and foremost. You can love horses but ask how those situations were dealt with in worst case scenarios.

I think i’ll not bother with asking questions any longer. It seems the know it alls like to put down others where they perhaps lack a little of some knowledge. Dissapointing
 
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I once left a fancy part livery yard due to a breakdown of trust (I had always paid, the trust breakdown was due to them not letting me know that my horse was injured or how it happened). Trust is a fragile thing and it is utterly essential when you are leaving your horse with people that you don't know (certainly to start with).

Maybe this has lead me to being more sceptical about yards and their promises of high quality care. A very tough 'miss a payment and we're selling your horse' policy would not put my worries at ease. A fairer policy that also allows for shit to happen (I've also had a spinal injury so know all about that sadly... would you be selling the horse if I was laid up in hospital so couldn't hand over the cash on time?) would be reassuring. I would hope to never ever need to pay late, but as I said a reasonable policy is reassuring in times of crisis.
 
Sorry if you felt my comment was nasty. But if you want ideas on how to protect yourself and make a successful business then what the contract says matters because you have to get people to want to move on in the first place. Even if you only intend it as a deterrent and would neve act on it, the fact is I would never agree to go on a yard that made that kind of threat. So I was offering some customer feedback - you may lose business if you take a really hardline on this. Not sure where the balance lies . But good luck with whatever you decide.
 
Da5912 said:
I think some nasty comments here. Its an open thread to ask questions from all angles.

Grew up on a livery yard though obviously now later in life it’s all learning the logistics from a running side of it and hearing all sorts of different ways people do it.
I think Where some wouldn’t want others on their land going about their day at any time of day or say dogs around. Thats part of the atmosphere as i remember it and thats what we want. An open happy horsey atmosphere. So we’re not in that bracket. The lands big enough. Our home seperate enough. Either way, we love good honest people and animals probally a little more than people haha.
But won’t tolerate the odd repeat offenders that are said to be going about at present in the area swapping yards playing same games, not paying bills due or causing drama. And so wanted to ask how someone prepares themselves for that situation. Though you’d hope it would never arise.

It was all said tongue in cheek when conversing with a group of people about how they’d experienced a bad group of people (all related family members apparently) on one yard and how they were stuck with them, that my partner joked he would relocate they’re horse after a few weeks. To his sisters yard in the next town so when they came and no horse they’d realise bills can’t stand long term unpaid and they couldn’t still carry on as normal getting the back up of other paying liveries with their antics.
She has a backing and sales yard and alot more boxes. Like some have said there can be a clause that if after 28days noone turns up attend to horse or is but still not paying and causing trouble then the horse be rehomed etc. No ones land is a charity or trust to be abused unless its the unfortunate situation of someone honestly had trouble paying their bills. Everyone appreciates an honest person over someone who’s not had any intention to do the right thing. And clearly horses well being first and foremost. You can love horses but ask how those situations were dealt with in worst case scenarios.

I think i’ll not bother with asking questions any longer. It seems the know it alls like to put down others where they perhaps lack a little of some knowledge. Dissapointing
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I don't think anyone has been nasty, just pointing out that there many sides to being a livery yard, and understanding of consumer contract law is one of them.
There are some excellent goverment websites that give information about business responsibilties, from how you muck heap/waste is managed to consumer contract law.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-...essive-charges-and-disproportionate-sanctions

I would imagine that selling a horse and tack for not paying a months DIY livery would be seen as a disproptionate action. I have also seen a livery yard contract that attempted to restrict their liability, which would be classed as an unfair contract.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...ment_data/file/820461/UCT_02_common_myths.pdf
 
I haven’t read any replies as nasty either? As you said OP it’s an open thread to ask questions from all angles so therefore you will get answers from all angles to consider - that’s what’s so good about the forum ??
 
I can’t help with the legality of the various situations but I was on a yard once which was run amazingly (I would still be there if I hadn’t moved and actually cried when I left) so i thought I would share that incase it’s helpful!

They took a months livery as a deposit and you pay a month in advance. She never advertised spaces but rather it was all through word of mouth and she would only allow people on that were known to current livery’s. It did mean there was occasionally the odd empty stable but it made for a much more harmonious environment!

She only offered part livery so all feeding and turning out/bringing in was done for you (all hay and bedding included and as lib) and all the horses were fed and were out at the same times which made for a very settled environment for the horses too. Anyone who didn’t look after their horse in a way she saw fit, was told, and she would do whatever the horse needed and then billed the owner for the work done.
Not been on a better yard before or since!
 
The yards I've been on have held a month's deposit like you would on a flat. That way you have a month chasing someone if they don't pay before you are out of pocket.

Get it back when you leave or in some cases they let you put it towards your last month when you give notice.
 
criso said:
The yards I've been on have held a month's deposit like you would on a flat. That way you have a month chasing someone if they don't pay before you are out of pocket.

Get it back when you leave or in some cases they let you put it towards your last month when you give notice.
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same here.
I think the other thing that can be a good move is to get everything paid by monthly standing order, I've had to do that in the past as a client (and any services or ad hoc charges were invoiced separately). I also don't think any of the replies were nasty, the questions asked did make it sound like the OP was planning on implementing policies which are either pretty off putting at best, or possibly even illegal. it's good to get those things ironed out :)
 
Some yard owners are totally nuts! The awful behaviour of GG Equestrian showed that you really are at the mercy of the YO if you leave your horse on a yard. So if a YO told me he would evict/tie up/sell on my horse if I ran into problems I would a) believe him/her and b) run a mile! It is not the poor animal's fault if a livery is late with payment and none of those options are fair to the animal. Even the gate locking stuff would make me want to avoid. And I am a very nice livery to have around. Never cause problems, clean up after myself, always pay on time and look after my horses properly. But reasonable behaviour works both ways.

My new YO seems to have it right - 1 month in advance. If you don't come up to do your horse she does it and charges you. Any problems she explains the issue and if it is not resolved she asks you to leave. She would never harm a horse in her care though. I am not sure what she would do about abandonment but I think she'd serve abandonment notices and recoup her money that way.
 
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