Lets justify Hunting for sport!:)

[Countryman]

Please do go ahead and PM me. Yes that's what I meant, all followers would be aware of, and support, the illegal hunting...

I do find it hard to believe in this conspiracy you talk of! In which hunts trail hunt on Saturdays and hunt foxes in the week. I very much doubt there's any difference between Saturday and Mid-week hunting with most packs!

However, while I wouldn't condone breaking the law I can certainly see why some packs may be tempted to, especially when keepers and the like put pressure on them.

 

[JanetGeorge]

What, that point to pointers have a few half-hearted half-days hacking about at the back of a hunt to get their card marked?

Hardly much of a link, and one which would be easily abandoned at the drop of a hat should all hunting become impossible or illegal for some reason.

And WHO is going to take over running 200 odd point-to-point meetings every year if the hunts stop doing it???

There's not enough money in pt2pt for a commercial organisation to take it over (if they did, the cost would double/treble and pt2pt would die!) For hunts, their pt2pt is a useful fund-raiser - and there are plenty of KNOWLEDGEABLE helpers available (so no, the local findraising group for a local hospice is unlikely to take over a pt2pt!) It's also an opportunity to extend some local hospitality to good hunt-supporting farmers!

Your knowledge of hunting - and the role it plays in rural communities - is a bit 'lacking'!

 

[Nancykitt]

Were you out on a Saturday?

Yes, I was out on a Saturday - I've only ever hunted midweek on two occasions and the main difference was that the field was much, much smaller and it was a shorter day.

As I've admitted, I'm not very experienced. But on one occasion the huntsman really was working hard to sort things out - it was tricky moorland terrain and it did involve him (and a few others) being on foot at one point and doing quite a bit of running around.

On the other occasion, with a different hunt, the land made things less tricky and the huntsman had less of a problem in getting the hounds off the scent. But the main point is that on both occasions the huntsmen and whips did take it very seriously and reacted extremely quickly.

I'm not saying that it's like this everywhere on every hunting day, but that was just my experience.

 

[cptrayes]

And WHO is going to take over running 200 odd point-to-point meetings every year if the hunts stop doing it???

There's not enough money in pt2pt for a commercial organisation to take it over (if they did, the cost would double/treble and pt2pt would die!) For hunts, their pt2pt is a useful fund-raiser - and there are plenty of KNOWLEDGEABLE helpers available (so no, the local findraising group for a local hospice is unlikely to take over a pt2pt!) It's also an opportunity to extend some local hospitality to good hunt-supporting farmers!

Your knowledge of hunting - and the role it plays in rural communities - is a bit 'lacking'!

Janet we weren't talking about the future of point to pointing, we were talking about whether the link was strong enough to justify diverging from the original poster's point about hunting fox to include justifying national hunt racing.

Point to pointing hasn't ended, it still carries on in spite of the ban, so clearly point to pointing does not require live animals to be hunted on horseback either. But I still don't think it's part of this discussion, racing is far too big a topic on its own and for many other reasons than hunting fox.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Janet we weren't talking about the future of point to pointing, we were talking about whether the link was strong enough to justify diverging from the original poster's point about hunting fox to include justifying national hunt racing.

Point to pointing hasn't ended, it still carries on in spite of the ban, so clearly point to pointing does not require live animals to be hunted on horseback either. But I still don't think it's part of this discussion, racing is far too big a topic on its own and for many other reasons than hunting fox.

YOU were dismissing/trivialising the link between hunting and jumps racing - in particular point-to-pointing! If you are SO unaware of the link - you needed correcting! We have totally exhausted the OP's original point - and - um - who made YOU the judge of what should be discussed on any particular thread??

 

[cptrayes]

YOU were dismissing/trivialising the link between hunting and jumps racing - in particular point-to-pointing! If you are SO unaware of the link - you needed correcting! We have totally exhausted the OP's original point - and - um - who made YOU the judge of what should be discussed on any particular thread??

No-one, and it is not a role I have taken on. You addressed me directly with your post and I have simply responded that I do not think the connection between racing and hunting is strong enough to compare the two from a moral point of view.

I don't think I have trivialised the link in particular. I think it genuinely is trivial in the context of discussing the morality of fox hunting.

 

[JanetGeorge]

I don't think I have trivialised the link in particular. I think it genuinely is trivial in the context of discussing the morality of fox hunting.

Foxhunting was not banned because of 'immorality' (let's face it, adultery is 'immoral' but it's not banned!) It was banned on grounds of alleged cruelty. Therefore - morality is trivial in discussing whether foxhunting should be legal - or not!

 

[Alec Swan]

Deleted. Second thoughts!!

 

[happyhunter123]

However, while I wouldn't condone breaking the law I can certainly see why some packs may be tempted to, especially when keepers and the like put pressure on them.

Quite true. We find getting permission to trail hunt much harder, especially with farmers who are less supportive of hunting (by that I don't mean anti, I mean that they have no interest in hunting and only like us crossing heir land if we're killing foxes). This is more so with areas where shooting takes place. We haven't actually been denied access to many areas, but many landowners allow us to hunt fewer days over their land than in the past. My pack carries out no form of fox control, for a number of reasons.

Trail hunting is unsustainable at its current level. Before the ban, we warned that hunts would close and hounds put down. It could still happen. So it is understandable why some packs may chose to break the law.

 

[cptrayes]

Foxhunting was not banned because of 'immorality' (let's face it, adultery is 'immoral' but it's not banned!) It was banned on grounds of alleged cruelty. Therefore - morality is trivial in discussing whether foxhunting should be legal - or not!

You and I both know that it was not banned because of cruelty but for political vote-catching reasons.

You spent a long time educating me about fox hunting on a hunting thread a couple of years back, for which I have always been grateful. I understand your passion for your sport. I do not condone breaking the law to continue it.

 

[JanetGeorge]

You and I both know that it was not banned because of cruelty but for political vote-catching reasons.

You spent a long time educating me about fox hunting on a hunting thread a couple of years back, for which I have always been grateful. I understand your passion for your sport. I do not condone breaking the law to continue it.

Ah - but cruelty was the excuse! I confess I no longer have 'a passion' - in fact I no longer hunt unless I have to get a youngster out to show him the ropes (and then I don't stay out long!) But I DO retain a certain passion for argument!

 

[AnaV]

Although the racing industry exploits animals it does not kill them on the track intentionally. Yes, the animals go out, get run into the ground and killed but that is not the aim of the game. That is why it has nothing to do with a game which requires the death of animals. You were speaking of 'core values'. I would love to hear them.
For surely the 'Core value' of a hunt for humans goes back to the time when we would hunt to eat- for survival. You also yourself kindly mentioned the introduction of foxes back into Australia for the sheer thrill of 'the chase'/pleasure.

 

[Star_Chaser]

Although the racing industry exploits animals it does not kill them on the track intentionally. Yes, the animals go out, get run into the ground and killed but that is not the aim of the game. That is why it has nothing to do with a game which requires the death of animals. You were speaking of 'core values'. I would love to hear them.
For surely the 'Core value' of a hunt for humans goes back to the time when we would hunt to eat- for survival. You also yourself kindly mentioned the introduction of foxes back into Australia for the sheer thrill of 'the chase'/pleasure.

AnaV why are you bringing a comparison between horse racing and fox hunting neither bare any resemblance to the other?

Horses are bred at great expense to run a specific distance sometimes over fences others on the flat, anything with a fence no matter what it is carries a risk, anything with a horse that gallops at speed carries a risk to horse and rider, we have known that since the first day man tamed horses and got up on their backs. The main difference if you are going to make a comparison is that horse racing is an enormous global industry carried by the gambling of man with a high turnover of excess/unusable stock. Fox hunting is tiny in comparison and indigenous in some respects, rather than a first past the post it does serve a function to the community, countryside and to our wildlife as a whole. Foxes are still killed to protect OUR food.

If you must make a comparison at least make a valid one.

I will add I support horse racing as a past time but I would like to see more to be done to help with an alternative life once their careers are over.

 

[AnaV]

Star_Chaser- Do keep up. One of your fellows asked what the difference was between fox hunting and horseracing, shooting and fishing therefore, I did not bring them into the conversation.

 

[Alec Swan]

Although the racing industry exploits animals it does not kill them on the track intentionally. Yes, the animals go out, get run into the ground and killed but that is not the aim of the game. That is why it has nothing to do with a game which requires the death of animals. You were speaking of 'core values'. I would love to hear them.
.......

Were you to have any experience of hunting, an experience which was of value and was based upon fact, you may well have learned that the pleasure of hunting, as racing, is not actually dependant upon an animal dying.

Alec.

 

[micki]

Were you to have any experience of hunting, an experience which was of value and was based upon fact, you may well have learned that the pleasure of hunting, as racing, is not actually dependant upon an animal dying.

Alec.

And that's where drag hunting hunting comes in! No animal dies. I really hope the OP doesnt lose her passion.

 

[Nancykitt]

I'm not sure what 'passion' you are referring to?

 

[micki]

I'm not sure what 'passion' you are referring to?

Her passion for life. I hope life doesn't knock it out of her and she continue to fight her corner even when others don't agree with her.

 

[cptrayes]

Were you to have any experience of hunting, an experience which was of value and was based upon fact, you may well have learned that the pleasure of hunting, as racing, is not actually dependant upon an animal dying.

Alec.

No Alec, but it is dependant upon an animal running for its life, sometimes for exhausting distances, and even if it were not killed that would, to me, be unacceptable.

It is also the case that it is impossible to follow a fox hunt without foxes being killed, and your sub is paid in the full knowledge that it will be used to finance the killing of foxes, therefore your pleasure is directly connected to the killing of foxes.

To suggest that the two can be disconnected in some way is disingenuous to say the least.

 

[Nancykitt]

I think we can safely assume that she will continue to bounce back given her resilience...and her resistance to consider any of the reasons/ arguments put forward at her request.

 

[Countryman]

"Hunting ia dependent on an animal running for its life sometimes for exhausting distances"

Racing is also dependent upon animals running, sometimes for exhausting distances!

"It is impossible to follow a fox hunt without foxes being killed" Well no, very unlikely but not impossible. In the same way it's impossible to attend every race at a racecourse without a horse being killed some day.

"Your sub is payed...to finance the killing of foxes"
No it is payed to finance hunting which doesn't necessarily involve killing! Just as a racing season ticket is payed to finance racing not the killing of horses but some will die.

Therefore the pleasure people take from hunting is not directly related to the kill at all!

 

[cptrayes]

"Hunting ia dependent on an animal running for its life sometimes for exhausting distances"

Racing is also dependent upon animals running, sometimes for exhausting distances!

"It is impossible to follow a fox hunt without foxes being killed" Well no, very unlikely but not impossible. In the same way it's impossible to attend every race at a racecourse without a horse being killed some day.

"Your sub is payed...to finance the killing of foxes"
No it is payed to finance hunting which doesn't necessarily involve killing! Just as a racing season ticket is payed to finance racing not the killing of horses but some will die.

Therefore the pleasure people take from hunting is not directly related to the kill at all!

Nope, that argument doesn't work for me at all

I spent probably hours discussing fox hunting with JanetGeorge among others and the argument that was put to me which I found most credible was that fox hunting actually conserves foxes and creates a healthy population. It was also made clear during those discussions that conservation by using hounds cannot be finanaced without the followers. There is a direct connection between paying your sub and the death of foxes by being chased by hounds. I'd go so far as to say that anyone who hunts and refuses to recognise that connection is suffering from cognitive dissonance, trying to persuade themselves that the pleasure of their chosen passtime is harmless while actually feeling either consciously or unconsciously uncomfortable about how their fun is obtained.

 

[AnaV]

Tenacious it is fair to say I am for I am still waiting for you to tell me these 'Core Values'. It is people like Micki who keep my faith alive knowing that there are in fact real horsemen out there; those who genuinley care for animals. Well said Cptrayes, I can agree there for despite the amount of horses which die due to injuries sustained on the track and at home, those in the industry who work with them do not intend for the circumstances to arise the way they do. They do not breed animals to kill them before their 'careers' are over, short of them reaching double digits. The matter of horse slaughter after the game ends is one of great difference however and one which I do not wish to go into on this thread.

 

[Countryman]

Look I absolutely agree that paying your sub or cap or supporters club fee or whatever does support the chasing of foxes yes, but not necessarily their killing.

It's a silly or rather minor point to make I know, but you just seem unable to grasp that people who enjoy hunting enjoy the chase not the kill.

Yes, hunting does involve killing. Sometimes foxes will get killed and that's not a bad thing. But people's personal enjoyment of a run isn't really affected by the kill (or lack of)

 

[Nancykitt]

AnaV, If I valued your opinion I would be insulted by the inference that I do not 'genuinely care for animals'. Anyone who knows me will know just how much I do care. But as you have shown yourself incapable of reasoned discussion I refuse to be insulted.

And while I do not claim to be a 'real horseman' in so far as I am a novice, I can truly say that some of the finest horsemen and horsewomen you will see have been out on the hunting field - people who are not just brilliant riders but have an amazing affinity with horses.

It is interesting that you are referring to people on this thread as 'genuinely caring about animals' and 'real horsemen' simply on the basis that they appear to agree with you. You have no idea about anyone, what they do or their ability as a 'horseman'.

(BTW this is not to offend anyone, I'm not suggesting that anyone here is a monster - just making the point that because someone agrees with you, it does not make them a saint).

 

[cptrayes]

Look I absolutely agree that paying your sub or cap or supporters club fee or whatever does support the chasing of foxes yes, but not necessarily their killing.

I am at a complete loss to see how you manage to disconnect the two in your own mind. Fox hunts only existed because they killed foxes. The chase is inseparable from death.

It's a silly or rather minor point to make I know, but you just seem unable to grasp that people who enjoy hunting enjoy the chase not the kill.

I grasp that totally but I have absolutely zero respect for the argument "I love the chase, I don't love the killing " when you cannot have the chase without the killing.

Yes, hunting does involve killing. Sometimes foxes will get killed and that's not a bad thing. But people's personal enjoyment of a run isn't really affected by the kill (or lack of)

I do not believe that the two can be disconnected. Of course their enjoyment of a run is not, for most people, affected by the kill or lack of a kill. But they cannot have the run in the first place without the prerequisite of an intention to kill. The two are so closely linked that it is, I think, totally fair to connect the two.

I say this as a person who has fox hunted, who believes foxes need culling, and who found the chase immensely enjoyable, but decided that morally I could not continue to chase live quarry. I now drag hunt. If I could not drag hunt I would not hunt at all, because . I. simply cannot, as you so easily do, disconnect my pleasure in galloping and jumping in company from chasing and killing of foxes.

 

[micki]

AnaV, If I valued your opinion I would be insulted by the inference that I do not 'genuinely care for animals'. Anyone who knows me will know just how much I do care. But as you have shown yourself incapable of reasoned discussion I refuse to be insulted.

And while I do not claim to be a 'real horseman' in so far as I am a novice, I can truly say that some of the finest horsemen and horsewomen you will see have been out on the hunting field - people who are not just brilliant riders but have an amazing affinity with horses.

It is interesting that you are referring to people on this thread as 'genuinely caring about animals' and 'real horsemen' simply on the basis that they appear to agree with you. You have no idea about anyone, what they do or their ability as a 'horseman'.

(BTW this is not to offend anyone, I'm not suggesting that anyone here is a monster - just making the point that because someone agrees with you, it does not make them a saint).

She may know someone who has replied on this thread!!

I am at a complete loss to see how you manage to disconnect the two in your own mind. Fox hunts only existed because they killed foxes. The chase is inseparable from death.



I grasp that totally but I have absolutely zero respect for the argument "I love the chase, I don't love the killing " when you cannot have the chase without the killing.




I do not believe that the two can be disconnected. Of course their enjoyment of a run is not, for most people, affected by the kill or lack of a kill. But they cannot have the run in the first place without the prerequisite of an intention to kill. The two are so closely linked that it is, I think, totally fair to connect the two.

I say this as a person who has fox hunted, who believes foxes need culling, and who found the chase immensely enjoyable, but decided that morally I could not continue to chase live quarry. I now drag hunt. If I could not drag hunt I would not hunt at all, because . I. simply cannot, as you so easily do, disconnect my pleasure in galloping and jumping in company from chasing and killing of foxes.

This i can i totally agree with. It is why if i ever go hunting again it will be with my local drag hunt and NOT my local fox hunt.

 

[Nancykitt]

She may know someone who has replied on this thread

Well, it's possible. But I doubt she'd know everyone, and I'm sure you can see that the point I was trying to make was that it's foolish to infer that someone doesn't care about animals and isn't a 'real horseman' just because they don't share your views. Similarly, it's naive to imply that someone is a paragon of virtue simply because they express agreement on an Internet forum.

 

[AnaV]

You presume I do not know someone on this thread and you are wrong. Not steering from the topic at hand but I know of only a couple of true horsemen from the many I have met and worked with.

Now the hunting 'Core Values?'

 

[Nancykitt]

I di not 'presume' you didn't know anyone on the thread, but I did say that you couldn't know everyone and you certainly don't know me. You have no right to judge that people don't care about animals just because they don't share your beliefs.

And as for only knowinf a few real horsemen - depends on your definition of 'true horseman' I suppose.

And I may not know everyone on this thread - but I know some and I know how much they really do care about animals.