Lets justify Hunting for sport!:)

[brighteyes]

Well, we have managed (by our requirements for a plentiful and secure supply of food) to skew the whole wildlife system so completely that there is no balance brought by self-regulation. We also removed the top predator from the ecosystem (whose method of controlling the fox was to chase it, then use teeth to despatch it) and have made scavenging and other food sources so plentiful, the fox population has exploded.

Either we hold our hands up and enforce moderation in our food (so there aren't so many lambs and chickens in fields (we like our food to be happy before we kill it and eat it) and only buy exactly the food we need to survive (so none gets thrown into bins and wasted) or we manage the eco-system and fox population in a sensible fashion.

It has to be said, galloping about on horses following packs of hounds, is tremendous fun. Chasing the odd fox or two doesn't bother me - I'd sooner not do it under the heading of 'sport' and the fit ones get away in any case, but if an old and mangy specimin is lingering (due to aforementioned reasons) then a very quick death (and if there has been a chase of any length, the creature will be full of adrenaline and therefore in an altered state anyway) is far better than a slow and painful one.

I don't hold with artificially 'setting up' a fox or any other healthy creature for the provision of 'sport' but feel drag hunting (which might include the killing of any fox whose life is compromised by its ill-heath) to be perfectly OK. The hunt could be officially employed in the countryside on non-hunting days armed with a hound (or so) and several guns. They would all be expert marksmen, naturally.

Of course, safety in the fields would be an issue if we did the reintroduction of wolves (the natural top predator) or fox number control by shooting, but since we got ourselves into this mess...

 

[{100649}]

Wow this is getting stupid now. This "argument" isn't going anywhere. She is clearly not listening to anyone. Anything you say to her is wrong and her opinion is what matters. Leave her and her narrow mind to it. She's a waste of your time guys!

 

[luckyoldme]

How about doing yourselves a favour and justify good manners when dealing with other members of the general public?
Im sure every single member on here would entusiaticly thank a driver for pullling in and waiting for them to pass, and im sure no one on here would fail to acknowledge the driver and not only that ,turn round and ride half way back up the road and turn into a field, without so much of a thankyou. Im also sure that if a member of the public caught a loose horse and held on to it whilst its injured rider was tended to you would nt just walk over and grab the reins without so evan acknowledging that person.
Both these things have happened to me , i would still stop for horses and i would still grab a loose horse, because im fair minded..but it left me with the impression that out of the three esperiences of speaking or interacting with the hunt, two experiences were with very arrogant people.

 

[brighteyes]

You can't really 'justify hunting for sport' but you can justify taking out an odd mangy specimin in the process of following (for sport/pleasure) a set trail across counrty, on horseback behind hounds on a scent accompanied and supervised by a huntsman and his staff.

 

[Molasses]

Can't really justify anything to those who ask the question with their minds already made up.

But I've got to say I've really enjoyed this thread, it's been funny, informative, passionate and very well behaved considering the provocative nature of some. Bravo everyone.

 

[Alec Swan]

I really don't mind if someone with no knowledge of wildlife & even less ability to have reasonable debate considers me silly & pedantic. That's preferable to actually being stupid & misinformed.

Presactly! Every now and then, there are those who post on here, they start of all so often, with an apology, and then they ask their question, a question which is all so often asking for justification. Those questions come from those who by their own admission, don't understand. After the initial mistrust, most will respond in a factual and reasoned way.

Then we have those who've formed their own preconceived ideas, they still don't understand, but they've formed opinions which are based on anything but experience, and they would also be zealot like in their assumptions about class distinction; failing to understand that Field Sports are the greatest levellers of any assumed status.

I'd suggest (yes, AGAIN!) that we ignore the latter. They have no interest in the views of the bulk of the contributors to this section.

Can't really justify anything to those who ask the question with their minds already made up.

But I've got to say I've really enjoyed this thread, it's been funny, informative, passionate and very well behaved considering the provocative nature of some. Bravo everyone.

Well said you. I've enjoyed reading through it too. I do sometimes wonder though, why those with such entrenched views even bother to open debate. Those who live in a seemingly sterile and purist world, vegans presumably, post such headings where the majority have a diverging understanding. If their only intent is causing mischief and disagreement, then they are no more than Trolls (such a horrible word).

Alec.

 

[Springy]

Foxes kill for fun as well as food same as humans

Hounds hunt in a pack like Lions hunt zebra so surely thats more natural than a gun... people would be outraged at people shooting a zabra but when a lion kills it its ok.... the hounds are using their natural instincts like greyhounds domestic cats etc etc

People will never agree

My husband hunts and as he is involved in racing then the horses need to have taken part in 3 hunts to p2p

I dont hunt as I couldnt kill a fox however i would drag hunt.

We however are married and we can agree to disagree and see both sides of the argument.

We also have a pet foxhound who likes foxes (he is odd lol) but he isnt the blood thirst animal he is made out to be

Agree to disagree like everything else in life ie vegiterianism, dirivng a car, owning a caged bird, spurs vs natural horsemanship........ the list never ends.....

 

[bubbilygum]

But I've got to say I've really enjoyed this thread, it's been funny, informative, passionate and very well behaved considering the provocative nature of some. Bravo everyone.

Me too!

 

[iansmithpesty]

I think the main problem with justifying 'sport' is the meaning of the word sport in itself.

Iv played rugby, to me that is a game, not sport. In modern Britain sport now means all such games and hobbies so using it to include hunting automatically
angers many people and puts fieldsports people on the back foot.

If you feed a cat it still hunts, why? because its part of its very being. I, and many others feel the same. We cannot live without hunting, real hunting, the all consuming being in pursuit of something. The inability or refusal to grasp this is the root cause of the ignorance of the 'anti' brigade. Many people are happy to drag hunt (100% an equestrian activity) just as many people are pacified with watching football or playing video games. But for many of us we need the real thing. 150 people may follow a hunt on horse back, maybe 75% will be there just for the ride, to qualify p2p or for many other reasons but a proportion will be there to hunt, to watch hounds and huntsman in perfect harmony trying to outwit a wild being, that the odds are vastly stacked in the favour of. Thats why hunting isnt about the big posh mounted packs but its also about the group of 15 beaglers who meet on a mountainside to try to catch hares with a tiny hound.

Someone on here has said they would rather choose to be culled by a trained marks man with a lamp. Well that sounds good but no matter how good a shooter maybe their will always be an amount of wounding, with hunting you never get this. Also with lamping for pest control, no hedges will be planted, no woods coppiced, no jobs created, no money brought to rural communities, a healthy young fox as likley to be killed as an old fox, no way of following a lamb killer from the scene of his crime (so many foxes may be shot before the killer is caught) no protection of foxes in areas where hunting is more for 'sport' than pest control, lamping is not possible mountain or forest areas where hunting is more for pest control than sport. The reasons for hunting are very complicated and can never be simplified.

So for me the word sport is the exercising of ones instinct to really hunt and the enjoyment it brings. I can justify it because of the many benifits it also brings to my quarry and the countryside.
The linking it to meat eating is, I suppose, to do with it being something we dont need to survive. We do it because we want to. A chicken that is bought from a takeaway is proberly 6 weeks old when it is taken from the shed where it has lived its whole short life, stuck in a box and taken to a place where it is killed, more than likley by having its neck cut in the name of a foreign god. The majority of the population either have no problem with this or more than likley choose to ignore it, out of sight, out of mind. Yet their voice and uneducated opininon is used to ban us and our way of life.

I would rather my kids go hunting, real hunting than stay infront of a computer seeing grafic violence, eating mass produced food or watching the rubbish on our tv's.

You ask us to justify hunting? why should we? YOU AND SOCIETY JUSTIFY YOUR OWN LIVES! LET OTHERS CHOOSE FOR THEMSELVES!

I remember a poem I once read about a caveman reveling in the killing of a mammoth, the last words of which were 'the age of sin does not begin till our brutal instincts are gone' ENJOY YOU MASS PRODUCED CHICKEN DINNER

 

[Countryman]

For me, this poem sums up the reasons people continue to enjoy pursuing things. Personally, I enjoy stalking deer with my camera, seeing how close I can get to them before they bolt. I chase rabbits, running after them-not that I'd ever catch them ! ....

Always our fathers were hunters, lords of the pitiless spear,
Chasing in English woodlands the wild white ox and the deer,
Feeling the edge of their knife-blades, trying the pull of their bows,
At a sudden foot in the forest thrilling to ' Yonder he goes ! '
Safe for the space of a summer the cubs may tumble and play,
Boldly from April to August the dog-fox chooses his way;
But soon as the beech leaf reddens, soon as the chill wind blows,
He must steal, cat-foot, listening, ready for' Yonder he goes ! '
The sound of a horn in the bracken, the sound of a cheer in the ride;
Fourteen couple running for blood as though to the I brush of him tied!
Fourteen couple screaming for blood, and every hound of them knows
This is his right from the ages - the heart-stirring ‘ Yonder he goes!'
Not for the lust of killing, not for the places of pride,
Not for the hate of the hunted we English saddle and ride,
But because in the gift of our fathers the blood in our veins that flows
Must answer for ever and ever the challenge of ‘Yonder he goes !’

 

[KEF]

It cannot be justified and 99% of those that seek to justify, do so because it justifies their wish to take part in an activity that permits them to ride around the country side in a manner that they would not otherwise be permitted to.

 

[Countryman]

You are seriously deluded if you think 99% of the 1.25 million who hunt only do so for the chance to ride over land they wouldn't otherwise be allowed on. That is a factor yes. But to suggest that is the sole motivation for 99% of hunting people is nothing short of hilarious. Oh dear...

Was there any need to find this discussion, make an account and register yourself solely for the purpose of making that comment? Really?

 

[Springy]

Was there any need to find this discussion, make an account and register yourself solely for the purpose of making that comment? Really?

You have to love a keyboard warrior....

 

[KEF]

Countryman - I wonder what motivated you to register? Does it really matter? Taking part in any activity (for fun) which is intended to result (directly or indirectly) in the demise or detriment of an animal is wrong and cannot be justified.

 

[happyhunter123]

Countryman - I wonder what motivated you to register? Does it really matter? Taking part in any activity (for fun) which results (directly or indirectly) in the demise or detriment of an animal is wrong and cannot be justified.

But not if it is justified to kill that animal.

 

[KEF]

Ignoring the arguments of whether killing the animal is justified, it can never be right that people derive fun and enjoyment from it.

 

[Orangehorse]

So if no-one enjoyed hunting, it would be OK to keep the fox population down as a duty, and there would be no objectors. Anyway, foxes are shot now, so what is the problem? Oh dear, some people enjoy shooting too. Oops.

 

[Springy]

Ignoring the arguments of whether killing the animal is justified, it can never be right that people derive fun and enjoyment from it.

Can you please explain that to the fox when its killing the chickens for fun...

Or my cat when it chases birds/mice for fun.....

Or the greyhounds chasing rabbits etc etc..........

 

[Countryman]

So eating bread can never be justified? The process indirectly pays for a detriment to an animals way of life. Some of the money spent on the bread is used by the farmer to pay for the cartridges etc he used to shoot the rabbits nibbling the wheat, or to hire a deer stalker. You don't *need* to eat bread you do it for fun. Because you enjoy eating it.

 

[happyhunter123]

Ignoring the arguments of whether killing the animal is justified, it can never be right that people derive fun and enjoyment from it.

Do we have to go through this again? We don't take pleasure in the actual killing of the fox!
Otherwise, we could still go and shoot it and be perfectly satisfied.

 

[KEF]

I am not suggesting that killing animals is not necessary. What I am saying however is that it cannot be right for human beings to derive pleasure from it. The business of farming is quite different as is being employed to do a job which necessitates the death of an animal but killing is not a matter that should be taken lightly and certainly not one which is seen as leisure/sport.

 

[happyhunter123]

I am not suggesting that killing animals is not necessary. What I am saying however is that it cannot be right for human beings to derive pleasure from it. The business of farming is quite different as is being employed to do a job which necessitates the death of an animal but killing is not a matter that should be taken lightly and certainly not one which is seen as leisure/sport.

You clearly didn't read my above post!!!

Dear me.

 

[KEF]

Sorry Happyhunter, I wasn't responding to your post. Which of your previous posts are you referring to?

 

[Orangehorse]

In that case shooting and fishing would be banned too, as the people taking part are enjoying it.

 

[KEF]

Springy - I do not think your cat is capable of the same thought processess and that you are.

 

[happyhunter123]

KEF, this (rather fed-up) post:

Do we have to go through this again? We don't take pleasure in the actual killing of the fox!
Otherwise, we could still go and shoot it and be perfectly satisfied.

 

[Littlelegs]

So its ok to kill in your opinion kef, provided you don't enjoy the actual taking of life? In which case hunting is fine then. Or is it a case of out of sight, out of mind? The person who finds fox hunting pleasureable is somehow wrong, but eating meat is ok (despite the awful conditions most is reared & slaughtered in) because you didn't see it die? And pretend not to like the fact an animal did die for your enjoyment?

 

[KEF]

Orangehorse - personally I don't think that animals should be killed purely to satisfy the desire of a human being to kill .... many would not agree with me of course. I think a distinction can be drawn between killing to eat and possibly for wildlife management and killing for fun or 'sport'.

 

[Springy]

Can I refer you back to my post about 4 page go.........

 

[KEF]

So its ok to kill in your opinion kef, provided you don't enjoy the actual taking of life? In which case hunting is fine then. Or is it a case of out of sight, out of mind? The person who finds fox hunting pleasureable is somehow wrong, but eating meat is ok (despite the awful conditions most is reared & slaughtered in) because you didn't see it die? And pretend not to like the fact an animal did die for your enjoyment?

I completely agree that some animals for food are kept in awful conditions and would not condone that but one wrong does not justify another. In fact, the responsibility that comes with eating meat is bringing me around to the idea of rearing my own animals for meat, although I am not convinced that that would not turn me into a vegitarian.