Let's start a debate... Why are horses so much more "naughty"

[H's mum]

Just been reading one or two posts and it got me thinking...

Why do you think that horses are more "naughty" than they used to be 20 years ago?

We used to hack out all the time anywhere... traffic was never a problem - long hacks no spooky accidents - everything was very carefree long rein that type of thing...

We didn't really have napping issues...

So what's people's opinions on why?

Personally 20 years ago we didn't ride horses in the way that we ride them now... Outline? Nope... didn't know what that was all about - inside outside leg? Nope - no pressure - everyone jumped on long rein - unless you were on a horse with a natural outline - Quick off the leg? What in head collar and lead rope riding and leading back to the field bareback? Hmmm... things have changed a lot!

So... my thoughts on why... IMHO it's because we want our horses to BE sharper these days - we want them quick off the leg... we want them to think on their own feet to be expressive to bend, flex and be athletic...

But more and more these days all we hear about are naughty uncooperative horses that nap, rear, spook are traffic shy and well... difficult and more and more riders are scared of their mounts... (It was very rare 20 years ago to know of anyone with confidence issues? But now it's the norm... even top riders have their gremlins?)

...Have we compromised the horse by wanting all of this?
Kate x

 

[Bossanova]

I'm not old enough to be able top compare but any naughty horses I've seen have been rider generated- bad riding and inappropriate actions create naughtiness.

 

[viola]

Agree with above - plus not enough (good) discipline - same as with children nowadays!

 

[KatB]

Completely agree H's Mum. Also we overfeed horses, they are fed on diets which in alot of case provide far more nutrients than they will ever need, there are also more "hobby" riders which dont have the horsemanship or time to be able to work horses how they should be, which means there are more horses being trained etc by people who havent had the necessary background or knowledge to do so.

 

[H's mum]

Yes I agree that that contributes to the naughtiness (ouch at being too young to compare!

LOL!!!)
BUT... is it ignorance on behalf of the rider? Or is it because they want too much and don't know exactly how to ask for it? Or is it because they are overhorsed? (ie someone else prior to them owning it have made it that bit "sharper"?
Kate x

 

[the watcher]

Riding as a recreation has changed so much. 20 years ago you only had a seriously well bred warmblood, for example, if you were a professional - the rest of us (maybe going back 30 years now) had natives, cobs or hunters.

More available money means more people buying challenging horses without necessarily having years of experience, so they can be overhorsed, or maybe just surprised when a horse behaves like a horse.

 

[icestationzebra]

I also think that 'most' horses were worked more - or had more variety in their work 20 years ago. There were not so many arenas or horse walkers so people had to get out and about - even if it was to hack to borrow a school. These days some horses never leave the confines of the yard which I think is very sad.

 

[H's mum]

Totally with you on this one - I'm still amazed by the amount of people who want a flashy wb but can't ride either side of it!

You're right 30 years ago we rode hairy horses (no one clipped out either - a bib clip if you were lucky - hunters had blanket clips!) Now horses are stood in their stable fully clipped out... to do what? Trot and walk for 30 mins (not cantering as that would be too risky)
And no I'm not getting at anyone - I've had anxiety issues re: riding - so I do understand how fear can stop you from riding!)
Kate x

 

[Alibear]

But 20 years ago there just wasn't the commotion going on outside that there is now.

Less traffic in total, all the garden weren't full of kids on giant trampolines, or noisy lawn mowers, hedge cutters, leaf blowers, chain saws, garages with angle grinders, mig welders etc

The tractors were smaller and slower!

You could actually hack on expect to see a handful of cars

There were wider verges , more hedges to block views and wind!

I was talking to a very good horsewoman who swears of some her horses from back then would never ever hack now a days.

It's not just us and the horses that have changed!

 

[MizElz]

I think competition regimes have a big part to play. I think I am right in saying that, 20/30 years ago, even the likes of top show jumpers were hunted, taken across country, and so on. These days, it's a rarity; I think a lot of horses are cossetted more now than ever before. I have some very good friends in the SJ business, and many of them have horses that they say 'won't/can't hack'. Basic translation: we're too worried that such a valuable horse could injure itself on the roads/having a gallop, so we'd rather not take the risk. I remember reading an interview with John Whitaker where he said that hacking was an invaluable aspect of his horse's routine, and I wish that more could be like him.

I know that when we kept Ellie at my friend's SJ yard for a year, she was a different horse compared to now. The fast paced competitiveness of the yard upset her; she became more nervy and less affectionate, and less happy in her work - schooling every night (there was very little hacking) turned her very stale, and then she started developing bad habits, eg. rearing/bucking to evade going forwards in canter, things that she had never done before. Now she is back home, she's so much more chilled out! And my trainer's horse was the same; when he bought her, she was a green 5 year old, very loving, easy to handle. Within a few months of being a 'competition horse', she had become too strong to handle on the floor without a bridle, and developed a horrid cow kick

I think feeding has a big part to play, too. I know everyone talks about 'advances in feeding and nutrition', but I'm not always sure that the supplements, specialist mixes and the likes are a good thing. Give me oats, bran, linseed and sugarbeet any day!

As far as rider aids and riding methods are concerned, I suppose everything has got so much more serious now. In the Pullein Thompson days, kids rode for the sheer pleasure of it; my mum looks back on her pony days and remembers them as very different to mine. I think instruction is far more readily available to kids and adults alike these days, and as such, we're always striving to 'ride better' and 'get xxxxx right'. It's sad, really - we've almost lost a grip on what riding is really about. And that is sure to transmit to the horse.

Wonderful post, BTW - really made me think!

 

[malibu211211]

Agree with all of the above
Also it is so easy to teach your horse to be naughty without even realising you are doing it. I have done it several times with both Monty and especially D

Don't you think people nowadays are more reluctant to ask for help with a problem?

I think the horsey world is alot more competitive than it used to be when I was younger. You see these people out getting flashier horses when half the time they come unstuck when they don't have the knowledge to deal with what the horse throws at them

I will be the first one to admit that I probably shouldn't have bought either of my two

 

[Kate260881]

I think there are a lot of people who get very precious about their horses now. When we were on ponies we'd go off for the entire day exploring, didn't think twice of taking them past 'scary' things etc. I saw it at the riding school I was at where people moved onto horses and all of a sudden riding wasn't for going out and having fun anymore, it was about being serious.

I have a VERY sensitive 5 year old who had hardly been on the roads before I got her and she hacks on her own over motorway bridges, past trains etc. And the reason she is like this is because I take her out. Bombproof horses are made generally, they don't just appear. If horses aren't exposed to things how can they be expected not to freak out. We need to stop wrapping them all in cotton wool and give them a bit more credit.

 

[Mooch]

I think all the answers are spot on!

I would rather have a steady plod any day, as I am just not good enough to cope with anything else.

I got rid of my warmblood cross as he was just too much for me and needed to be in constant work. I coped fine on the ground with him and he had lovely manners when he left, but I was not the person to ride him.

The one thing I love about my Milly is the fact that she can be left for months on end and I can still tack her up and get on and ride. I can keep everything simple, especially with her feeding. She is nothing special and never will be, but that is the same as me, so it suits us both.

I am still trying to be a better rider and improve a few things with Milly, but only simple things really.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

napping IMO is mainly caused by the lack of a good start for youngsters and this attitude of not hacking them enough. IMO they should be out hacking asap-not six months down the line. too much traffic where you are? send it away or keep it somewhere else for a bit.
too many youngsters ridden in endless circles on a surface, in an outline too soon = too much pressure for some of them.
horses are overfed.
horses are worked all year round but very often not fit enough for the job.
more and more people are able to buy their own horses before they are ready- leads to confidence issues.
type of horse has changed as well.

 

[the watcher]

On the competition front - competetiveness starts at a much lower level now too. It almost seems that if you have a horse that will clear 2'6" or 2'9" you have a 'showjumper' and if it will bowl across country it must be a potential 'eventer'.

I'm all for encouraging people - but for heavens sake, I may be alone in this but I am firmly of the view that downgrading the entry level for BE, BSJA and BD has simply allowed some very novice riders into what is a potentially dangerous competitive arena - and that this then proliferates the stress horses are placed under and behavioural issues.

From my point of view, unless you are jumping 3'6"+ or well established at Novice and above - you don't own a competition horse, it is a pet - accept that and have fun with it. (Ohh, that got a bit ranty - sorry!)

 

[Baileysno1]

Horses are underworked and overfed, people with too much money buy horses bred for competition and keep them as field ornament or leisure horse. They then buy all the gimmicy equiptment under the sun to make it go 'pretty' then when they're little darling which is high on herbal supplements is involved in some sort of accident or fall they buy a DVD set and a enourmous bouncy ball to 'heal' it.

Every naughty horse I've come accross is a direct result of being owned or trained by an inexperianced idiot.

 

[Scarlett]

I think the type of horse people have now has changed, even 10 years ago no one I knew had WBs, it was all native crosses or ID crosses with the odd scatty TB thrown in, now some of these people have WB's and other highly strung horses and they are all far too precious/complicated to do what we used to do. Also I think people are buying horses that are too much for them because a particular breed is in 'fashion' and thus its not the horse being inherintley naughty, its it responding to the way it is handled...

Thats not a dig at WBs or their owners, just an observation on what I have seen happening over the last few years...

 

[H's mum]

Some good points raised ali - lots more traffic - but I remember cantering up a grass verge alongside an a-road! (don't ask me what on earth used to possess us.. it was a case of see grass.. opportunity to canter! LOL!)

Kate x

 

[TarrSteps]

Well, we didn't have the internet 20 years ago, to be fair, so rarely knew what was really going on with people outside our immediate circles. We also had a much "slower" media - the horsey media took aaaages to report on anything and one rarely heard about the same incident more than once.

We also had less traffic, fewer people and, one might argue, the greater freedom that comes with lower expectations. Most horses lived in rural areas where more people were horsey but as cities have grown more and more people commute, both to their horses and to where horses live. Fewer people rode and had horses, full stop. Most of us also, as you say, asked less of our horses and ourselves, in part because we were exposed to fewer options and didn't have the opportunity to compare ourselves so often.

All around less stress and since stress is the precursor to problems it's not too hard to see the connection.

It's is true we all talk a lot more about our internal lives these days - that's the way society has gone. In some ways it's probably bad (people are constantly reminded of things to be concerned about) but in other ways it's good. Maybe people had crippling confidence issues and never talked about it? I remember more than one top junior rider struggling at adult level then disappearing - maybe that person would stay and fight it out now? There have always been judgemental whispers about people losing their nerve and quitting - maybe people are a little more sympathetic now and it's viewed as a fixable situation rather than a reason to quit outright.

And we were not the same 20 years ago. I was a kid - I paid little attention to anything but me and the people immediately around me. I certainly didn't worry about anyone else.

There must have been badly behaved horses then too. I started out working for people who filled the niche I've filled as an adult - "problem" horses - and they always seemed to have plenty of work. People didn't talk about it as much (see above) and horses were more likely to just "not work out" but I don't remember nothing ever going wrong.

Yes, many things have REALLY changed. (Take a look at the article I posted a link to in CR for a particularly timely examination.) But so MANY things have changed - both in the horse world and in the world at large - it's almost impossible to separate out true, direct and specific cause and effect.

I'm playing devil's advocate a bit, as I do get what you're saying. But it's a bit like crime statistics - *everyone* seems to think crime RATES have skyrocketed but almost every study says generally that's not the case. We have more actual crimes, yes, but not per capita. And we tend to hear about the same ones over and over and over with unconsciously makes us think each incident is a "new" one (brains not being equipped for the modern world in many ways).

Anecdotal evidence, especially in the modern age of media manipulation, doesn't always tell a completely accurate story.

 

[Shilasdair]

There are many factors, I think.
Firstly, the way horses are kept - my three live out 24/7 all year, with a mainly forage based diet. This is now the exception, and many horses are kept stabled for a large proportion of their time so have no way of burning off energy.
Secondly, there is pressure on owners to clip fully, feed too much concentrates, and rug to the eyeballs, and to keep their horses in isolation (separate turnout paddocks) so horses can't meet their social needs, and youngsters can't learn from older horses so view everything as spooky.
Thirdly, people buy the wrong horses - everyone looks for a 5yo warmblood with paces to die for...but very few folk can ride them...

Really most owners would benefit from buying an older native or cross horse...rather than an aspirational beast.
Fourthly, many owners work long hours so their horses are not given enough work to occupy them, satisfy their locomotory desires...and thus are in full 'bucking b**tard' mode by the weekend!

In short, most naughty horses are reacting to the unhappiness of their lives, but owners don't recognise this.
S

 

[H's mum]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think people nowadays are more reluctant to ask for help with a problem?

[/ QUOTE ]
Is it more a case of they don't realise that they are the reason behind the problem though?

Like Bossonova said... the problems that she comes across are generated by people who don't realise that they've caused the problems...
Kate x

 

[pocket]

Totally agree with H's mum, I remember riding from Frogpool Manor down to foots cray meadows and having a wonderful time in the stream. Now you can just about get a car there safely let alone a horse!

We, used to feed horses individually depending on what work they did, had bins of oats, barley, nuts etc and fed the horse accordingly, now ponies get mix that blows their minds as its easy and cheaper to feed this way.

Also, I watch the children at the yard, no warm up and straight into canter....then they wonder why the pony naps out of the school or they jump day in day out!

I'd love to bring back the 80's

 

[MizElz]

[ QUOTE ]

From my point of view, unless you are jumping 3'6"+ or well established at Novice and above - you don't own a competition horse, it is a pet - accept that and have fun with it. (Ohh, that got a bit ranty - sorry!)

[/ QUOTE ]

I quite agree. Having jumped BSJA for three/four years with Ellie, we were 'well established' at 3'6-3'9, but even then, I would never describe her as a 'competition horse'. She is a pet; although we have done well, we were never going to be scaling the heights. We simply jumped tracks I never dreamed we could, and had a wonderful time in doing so. But even jumping/winning Newcomers does not make a competition horse, IMO.

The thing is, I think people get uptight if you imply that their super-duper expensive horse is a 'pet' but surely, unless you are jumping ITs/teams/national champs then that is what it is?

 

[H's mum]

Feel free to play devil's advocate... I started this thread to cause a debate (slightly bored this morning

)

Kate x

 

[Rambo]

Thirty years ago (and yes I am old enough to remember it !) you were a fairly inexperienced rider if you were showjumping at Newcomers level or eventing at novice level. Nowadays you are considered semi-professional to compete at these levels

Sharp warmbloods did exist...but only the real pro's had them and competed them to their full potential. These days you have people buying such animals to jump 90cms tracks

Yes, the world is a busier, buzzier place than it was back then...there's no denying that but horses are also hacked out less than they were. People are afraid of hurting themselves and/or their precious horses and it becomes an ever decreasing circle.

I also strongly believe that far too many people are far too soft on their horses and cause a lot of the problems themselves. Horses used to nap 30 years ago...of course they did...but the difference is it was soon stamped on and sorted out

 

[H's mum]

Your point about wrapping them up in cotton wool is a good one - but horses cost more money these days... so is it because people are frightened that their horse could get injured?
I agree that horses spend too much time in arenas and need more time being a horse - I myself am guilty of that - I'd love to hack out and take H for a gallop but sometimes it's easier to get her worked in the arena than face the 100mph traffic (we're not near off road riding just very main roads) Which wouldn't have been an excuse 20-30 years ago! LOL!!!
Kate x

 

[Alibear]

[ QUOTE ]
Some good points raised ali - lots more traffic - but I remember cantering up a grass verge alongside an a-road! (don't ask me what on earth used to possess us.. it was a case of see grass.. opportunity to canter! LOL!)

Kate x

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the whole point you could ride happily on and A road and not be stuck in a constant stream of traffic being squashed as they try to over take.

You had a wide grass verge and occasional cars so why not canter?

Roads are so very different now.

 

[Theresa_F]

Shilasdair - 100% agreement with you.

I made the huge mistake once of buying a beautiful WB mare - she turned out to be a serious competition horse rather than the all rounder I should have bought. Problem was her TB mum was exactly want I wanted and I had her on loan for several years before buying her daughter. Took me 5 years, a hospital visit and really not a lot of fun to make it really sink in. Had she been as difficult to handle as she was to ride and not such a lovely temperament I would have given up a lot sooner. However, we all live and learn - I did.

I have now seen the light and come to my senses - I work long hours, and my gypsy cob is ideal.

I only feed a fibre diet, get as much t/o as I can in winter and 24 x 7 in summer. I have spent a long time getting Chancer used to all sorts of things.

You see so many people on big strong WBs which really are bred for competition, when what they really need is a steady all rounder to have fun with.

20 years ago, I was riding my old TB who did everything and was bomb proof. She was the only TB on the yard, rest were shaggy ponies, steady cobs and a few TB x. Nothing was over 16.1 and they all did everything from hacking to small competitions.

Problem is that even local shows now are very serious and the sensible shaggy pony or cob finds it difficult to compare - just take a look at local dressage and showing for example.

 

[H's mum]

Don't you think that expectations are different too though?
What I expect from H is nothing like what I expected from my childhood horses?
Kate x

 

[horsegirl]

I know what you mean, my last horse was a 3 year old TB and, once broken and turned away, used to hack everywhere, with anyone fast canter & gallops in a snaffle with no worries about stopping. He never spooked at a single thing, he wasn't excitable and he was fed OATS. There wasn't anyone at the yard who had a horse that wouldn't hack, alone or in company. We used to go out for a three hour hack and take a picnic, horses just used to graze beside us and then we were off again. One several occasions we cantered up the grass verge on the side of the A1 (nuts!!!).