Let's start a debate... Why are horses so much more "naughty"

[NeilM]

I agree with much of what has been said, especially the points raised by Tarrsteps.

I have read and continue to read the three books written in the 1970's by Henry Blake. He rode horses from early childhood (before WW2) and his father made part of his living (as did Henry) by taking on and retraining 'mad and unmanageable' horses. Henry repeatedly makes the point that it is people who ruin horses. His last book was first published in 1976!

As for more modern practices, I think it has already been said, far too many hobby riders, who expect too much too quickly. This has been my own experience working closely with my OH (Follychops). I have had to rethink timescales of what I am hoping to gain and achieve with the pony I ride, and I then look at others and consider that they are trying to get too much too quickly from their horse / pony. How often do you read post on this forum along the lines of ' I've had my new horse a week/ two weeks / a month and I think I've made a terrible mistake as he's napping terribly'.

I think the phrase goes along the lines of ' there are no problem horses, just horses who have had problem owners'.

 

[JM07]

poor horse management... over feeding/ lack of turnout

poor riding in general.

 

[Shilasdair]

I agree with NeilM...and think that people always focus on their horse's weaknesses rather than their strengths which is not good for a happy relationship.
I appreciate my horses' good points, and largely gloss over and forgive their bad points or occasional mad moments - and I am a happy horse owner, with realistic expectations from them.
I also like mine to be happy herd horses in the 22 hours a day they're not with me....
S

 

[Maesfen]

I am so in agreement with Follychops and so glad she took the time to write it plus she's much better at it then me!

The one thing people haven't said about or if they had I missed it, sorry, is the way horses are broken nowadays, that must have a bearing on things too I think.
Years ago (I beat you easily FC, I'm nearer 50 years!) you had proper nagsmen who took their time over each horse and wouldn't progress until the basics were absolutely spot on and of course, they wouldn't be confined to a school (only the very lucky had one of those!) they'd be getting out and seeing things far more than some can do now. This doesn't happen anymore as a general rule, people are always in too much of a hurry now. Again, horses were given proper time off too; they worked hard but they were rewarded with time to relax and be horses which doesn't seem to happen so much now. Is it because those on livery look on turning away for a break to be a complete waste of money or not, I don't know but it does seem that people want their moneysworth out of their horses more.

Been a fascinating thread H's Mum, thanks!

 

[Weezy]

QR because I am lazy...

[ QUOTE ]
For me these are the causes:

1) Better breeding - the quality of horses has gone up immensely throughout the 20 years I have been riding. Unfortunately better bred means more TB blood and being able to handle them.

2) More leisure/novice riders - horses have become accessible to all. A lot of the time they are clueless and do not know how to look after a horse/buy the wrong one.

3) Dropping in standards of BHS AI - AI half the time do not have a clue and should not be teaching. There are far too many poor ones. They cannot sort out problems properly.

4) Too much food. 15 years ago your choice of feed was limited. Now I am totally baffled when I go to a feed store with 20 years of experience so no wonder they are being fed too much.

5) Lack of exercise - the rise of arenas and poorer hacking. Horses are not being worked enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will add in...

6) People are WAY WAY WAY too soft these day - I cannot believe this country someimes, the way that if a horse has a problem doing something the psyche of the horse seems to be looked at first or it is having a *off day*

Big animals need consistent and firm handling, end of.

7) DIY livery...need I say more

OK I will anyway - way back when yards were run by a matriach more often than not - this woman (usually was a woman) took everyone in hand and allowed no nonsense and now thousands of novices have horses at DIY, thinking that THEY need a comp mix, that THEY need to have their horse way too fit for their needs, that THEY should look into NH...it goes on, but I do think this is a big cause of probs we see today.

8) PC culture - instructors that bark at you properly are now few and far between and there are too many out there that pander to their clients and give them unrealistic visions of their abilities.

 

[hussar]

Like most of the older posters, I too learned to ride (40 odd years ago) at a local riding school; rode everything they had; did hours without stirrups, jumped without reins, hacked out for whole days, rode bareback, went river swimming with the horses, learned to vault on at the run. I was fearless, because I'd been taught to be confident. The school ponies/horses were mostly responsive and utterly bombproof and I can't remember one that had a vice other than eating at every opportunity!

So many things are different now - riding schools are scared to push their pupils for fear of litigation if things go wrong; traffic is faster, denser, less considerate; horses are finer, more cosseted, fed more concentrates, kept in more, worked less; riders are more prone to follow fashion in all sorts of ways without understanding what they're doing.

I'm glad I learned to ride when I did because much more was demanded of us, and we didn't question it at all, just got on with it.

 

[Sarah1]

Shilasdair, totally agree with your comments and with anyone else who has said that horses are basically overfed (or fed the wrong types of feed) & underworked. I also agree with the comments that it's not just us & our horses that have changed, the roads are far more dangerous now & even if your horse is 100% in traffic there are so many idiots driving powerful cars that you take your life in your hands!
As Shilasdair said stabling plays a huge role & 20 yrs ago our horses weren't stabled as soon as it starts spitting (ala Peter Kaye regarding the school dinner ladies! Hope you know what I'm talking about?!?)!

 

[K27]

I've ridden a few " problem horses " over the years/had quirky horses and its Because In my opinion they are very often overfed/ underworked (or worked incorrectly to cause pain/resistance), feeling too well and its very easy to overanalyse problems- years back they didnt have all these " calming " supplements and supplements for this and that!!- and things were simpler which is what I think things should go back to- simple feeding and simple riding and handling with clear boundaries and common sense- And also it can be tempting I guess with a lot of horses to put pressure on them to work in a certain way which they aren't necessarily physically capable of due to the way that they are put together....Thats just MY opinion though!!!!....

 

[pinktiger]

horses are built differently and some have more power that needs containing!! you only have to look at the best in the world eg: eventers xc or sj in more than snaffles or double bridles for dressage, pg dressage double bridle options usually taken up by the pros, and john w usually rides his in more than a snaffle!!!!

 

[Sarah1]

Agree with your comments Weezy, especially that horses are too big to be faffed about round & need firm handling, however I would perhaps make 1 slight adjustment - I wouldn't say all DIY yards are like this as I'm on DIY & most of the horses on our yard (run by event rider) are worked 6 days per week & compete regularly. Their owners have the horses to do a job not just to be a big dog or to look pretty in the field!
Our YM gives lessons & he'll quite happily tell you to 'get your fat a**e out of the saddle' or that your horse feels 'f***ing awful'

so very much a tell them as you see it type!

 

[Tia]

Hmm I'm not sure that much has really changed in respects to outside influences.

30 years ago I used to hack my Connemara X TB's into Edinburgh....there were plenty of cars and trucks then and mine didn't bat an eyelid. I hacked 10 miles to shows, 7 miles to the beach .... all on busy A roads.

My mares were both 5 years old when I was given them at 10 years old, both were straight TB crosses so not some ploddy deadbeats and still nothing fazed them - was it because nothing fazed me? I don't know, it was just the behaviour that was expected.

We showjumped, XCd and did whatever we fancied and I don't remember them even questioning anything.

I kept mine on a busy riding school to begin with and then moved them both to a working farm. I don't know whether horses predominantly living on farms back then maybe has something to do with it? I don't actually remember any purposebuilt livery yards where I lived. Everyone kept their horses on farms where there was constant activity from tractors, huge machinery, combine harvesters etc. and I can't recall any horses I knew, having problems with any vehicles.

I think that people shelter their horses too much nowadays instead of exposing them to everything and anything; particularly something which has gremlins. If any of my youngsters/new horses appear nervous of something ... that is red rag to a bull, for me! I will take them to it, have it wrapped around them, have them touch it, look at it and the ultimate goal is to have them understand that it isn't scary and to teach them trust in me.

What I found quite amazing this year is this. I have a couple of young horses who came from large cattle ranches and apart from seeing farm machinery/vehicles, they haven't seen cars or roads. Well I have now taken all of them out on a very busy and fast County Road - not one of them balked, not one of them shied, not one of them had any issues whatsoever....but then I wasn't expecting any of them to behave incorrectly, so is it simply this? I don't expect them to misbehave, I don't anticipate them having any problems; therefore it doesn't occur to the horse to have problems/worries/concerns either?

 

[Weezy]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't say all DIY yards are like this

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely agree - I prob didn't explain properly - DIY yards didn't used to exist and now there are THOUSANDS of them, which makes it far easier for people to have horses these days - but a lot of these yards do not have the correct infrastructure...not all, but a lot.

 

[TarrSteps]

[ QUOTE ]
I was even told I was 'very narrow minded' for refusing to try Ellie in a Myler (this by someone who has never met me or my horse). I do not like Myler bits at all, and I see no point in going looking for problems when there is no need!

Have never had a horse that won't go in a snaffle, even if its previous owners have said wont.

[/ QUOTE ]

But Myler makes snaffles . . .?

I agree with you in principle but I'm not sure improvements in horse comfort are the same thing as "gadgets". The Myler company (along with NS and KK to name 2) have done a fair bit of work to figure out what materials and designs work best for most horses and to educate people on what the best individual choice for their horse should be. They promote a whole system of bitting, not a cure all for anything that ails your horse. If someone is using a system improperly it doesn't mean the system is bad.

If a horse is more comfortable it would presumably work more effectively, no? That said, I'm of the unpopular opinion that how you ride and train a horse is FAR more important than the bit/saddle/physio/vet attention du jour. If you read the "old masters" there is all sorts of information about how work affects horses - good and bad - and how to train for performance and longevity. Now it's much easier to wreck the horse, pay someone to fix it, and then go right back to the situation that wrecked it in the first place. Not such a good course of action when the treatment options were fewer and farther between.

Btw, I actually remember more people getting completely custom made bits and tack when I was a kid, perhaps because there were fewer off the rack options.

 

[Sarah1]

Oh yes, I see what you mean, totally agree!

 

[muddy_grey]

Wow what a read! I sarted riding about 20 years ago and some things have changed a lot, but not just as far as horses are conserned! About 15 years ago I worked for a SJ dealer and rode anything and everything. We had many problem horses, youngster, SJ's etc etc and they were all hacked out at least 3 times a week. At 11 my friend (12) and I would hack out together on crazy 17hh 3yo's and napping was not an option. I will still happily get on and hack anything.
Last year I was at a yard and 2 of the girls asked if I would take them out for a hack with my very sensible mare and I said of course. Their mothers then came and spoke to me and made me ride up and down the road in traffic to prove it would be safe!!!!! I could not believe it. The lecture the girls got before we left the yard took longer than the hack. No wondered they were nervous. People are so worried about getiing hurt or having an accident that I think it must be transferred to some horses

 

[MizElz]

[ QUOTE ]


Btw, I actually remember more people getting completely custom made bits and tack when I was a kid, perhaps because there were fewer off the rack options.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still do this now, lol!

I cannot get plaited leather reins with a brass buckle anywhere, so one of our local saddlers makes them for me!

And a few years ago, I had them make up a noseband for me for the same reasons

 

[TarrSteps]

On the subject of exercise and feeding . . . I LOVE "Dog Borstal" but I always wonder how much of the "fix" is the training and how much is the controlled feeding, two long daily walks and two long "work" sessions a day. (Dog Whisperer with his roller skates makes me grind my teeth but same idea.)

There are also "horses for courses", though. Working bred QHs are supposed to be calm and accepting - it's in the job description - highly bred dressage horses, not so much. More fodder for the "pick the appropriate horse for the job" mill.

I have another one (I'm enjoying this, even without the appeal of procrastination.

) which will make me unpopular . . . artificial insemination! Yes, you read that right.

20 years ago it was very rare for horses to grow up anywhere other than at a breeder's, with their peers and handled by people experienced with youngstock. Even for single mare owners they had to take their mare to the stallion and most stallion owners with competition studs tried to stay very involved, or at least act as easy sources of information. As previously noted these horses usually stayed on the stud until they were broken, again by people who often did it for a living, and then went out into the world. Most of the time horses stayed close to where they were bred and people tended to know how the local stallions produced, again, making for easy access to information. Making horse was often considered at least as much art and science and a real skill, not just a matter of matching the numbers. (Of course there were lots of unregistered horses about but even then, usually known quantities.)

Now people breed to stallions they've never seen, often without even understanding the information available. (A good temperament mark doesn't mean the horse is a sweetie, it means it has a good competitive temperament - not the same thing at all!) I was fired by a woman who had bred her too-hot-for-her-to-ride TB mare to Flynge Amiral (hot even by DQ standards) and got a horse that - surprise, surprise - she couldn't ride one side of. I told her I didn't think the horse was suitable for the happy hacker job she wanted (she told me she bred to the horse because of his spectacular trot . . .) and she disagreed. (Shortly after the horse kicked her badly when I was the only other person on the yard . It was a long, quiet drive to the hospital . . ) I'm pretty sure if she'd ever actually seen Amiral or had the chance to talk to his riders/handlers she might have at least considered her decision more carefully, as he would have scared the **** out of her in the flesh!

 

[Skhosu]

Isn't it because 20years ago they were more owned by pros or under the wing of a pro, so they didn't get away with it, nowadays far too many people take on babies or people who have no horsey intuition plunge in on their own and thus horses become more 'naughty'

 

[Salcey]

Fab Thread.

Agree with a lot of the above re feeding and TO.

Unfortunately horses are often just another 'belonging' they must have the best bred horse with staggering paces even though it spends most of its time looking out its stable door. As someone above said, horses for courses. Often sadly the best horses for these people are the native/cob types that are so very often looked down on by the same people.

 

[suestowford]

[ QUOTE ]
(It was very rare 20 years ago to know of anyone with confidence issues? But now it's the norm... even top riders have their gremlins?)


[/ QUOTE ]

I will admit that twenty, thirty, nearly forty years ago I was a nervous rider. How times have changed! Now I can feel free to admit this, whereas then I was afraid to tell anyone how frightened I was. Lots of attitudes have changed sine my young days. I am glad that I no longer have to feel ashamed for being nervy, and now that I can admit it without feeling ashamed I can ask for, and get, help to sort myself out.

As for naughty horses, I remember plenty of naughty ponies in my past, but along with the culture of 'buck up and get on with it', we just accepted them and 'got on with it'.

 

[Bounty]

QR:-
I am (just!) 21 and this was my PC education:-

You don't see that in PC now!

I agree with many of the points made here already, but I think mainly the issues are..
*Not enough 'horsemanship'
*Too much mollycoddling - e.g. horses too valuable to hack, turnout etc, and owners making themselves feel better for the lack of time spent with the horses by 'giving them some extra food cos they like it' etc etc etc
*H&S - SUFFOCATING the sport!!!! For example :- Everyone throws their arms up in the air at so many people competing BE etc, but H&S and umpteen legislations and the compensation culture has caused almost all local HTs to close

Riding schools can no longer educate young riders in the way they need to be educated.

I could go on, but those are my main gripes!

ETA:
I also blame the media and forums like this.... I think with the increased levels of communication we are all so much more aware of accidents. Being aware of our own mortality has increased the paranoia about accidents and the compensation culture....

 

[gothdolly]

I think people are a lot softer about their horses and also more likely to overhorse themselves that 20 or 30 years ago. over feeding, over stabling and under working as others have already said all contribute. You seriously would not believe the amount of people at my yard who genuinly believe that their horses are in "hard work" because they hack out an hour a day and feed them accordingly. No wonder they are exploding out of their stables!

My mother says that people were more likely to just sell hard to manage horses on without too much fuss 30 years ago, whereas now we agonise and research and persevere!

 

[horsegirl]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't say all DIY yards are like this

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely agree - I prob didn't explain properly - DIY yards didn't used to exist and now there are THOUSANDS of them, which makes it far easier for people to have horses these days - but a lot of these yards do not have the correct infrastructure...not all, but a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

When did DIY yards not exist? I kept my horse on DIY 25 years ago.

 

[gothdolly]

love that horse central newsletter! i have photos of me doing that on my pony, I used to love it! Seriously, are kids not allowed to do that at PC anymore then? I will have to teach my son himself I suppose!

 

[Rambo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Me too!! My son's maxim was always "if it needs more than a snaffle, it needs re-schooling" and I was very heartened to see exactly the same comment in the HORSE article on gadgets . . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you see, I get slated for saying this kind of thing now! Ellie has always gone in a snaffle, and it saddens me to see all the bits of metal work that many horses have in their mouths these days. I was even told I was 'very narrow minded' for refusing to try Ellie in a Myler (this by someone who has never met me or my horse). I do not like Myler bits at all, and I see no point in going looking for problems when there is no need!

Have never had a horse that won't go in a snaffle, even if its previous owners have said wont.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your view is perhaps a little idealistic

Yes, most horses will 'go' in a snaffle...but that doesn't mean it's the best bit to put the particular horse in. More important in my opinion is what works best for you and your horse and produces the best overall outcome.....happy horse AND happy rider.

BTW...both mine go in loose ring snaffles

 

[tigers_eye]

QR: I side with Weezy. Whilst there is a huge amount more of information now, and specialists (nutritionists, saddlers, physio's, you name it - every horse has one), and whilst in most cases this is a great thing for horse welfare, it does give people excuses. If I take a horse for a hack and it stands up it gets a right telling off! That behaviour is dangerous for all concerned and must not be allowed. My two boys will be spooky and might have some bucks and farts on a hack, but they are fit horses and I enjoy their joi de vivre. Standing up is a right no-no though, and I would also be fairly confident that if something was tweaked/wrong with them I would feel it in their stride length or pattern or general demeanor before it got to the being naughty stage.

 

[LEC]

Oh god not the snaffle debate. It bores me so much.

 

[gothdolly]

[ QUOTE ]
.

2. Weren't anglo arabs all the rage in the 70's for rich ponyclubbers?

xa

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh god, yes they were and in the 80s too . My parents bought me one for my 12th birthday but I had to send her back after two weeks because she was too much for me!

I got a welsh x arab after that who was much more suitable having a bit of native sense!

 

[zigzag]

QR

1]Horses are mollycoddled these days
2] Kids are mollycoddled these days and don't have the same "guts"
3] Health and safety is to safety concious
4] When I was training for my BHS stages, (1986/7 lol) I was made to canter over cross country jumps in open field with no reins and stirrups, if you fell off you were called stupid, you soon learnt to balance, wouldn't dare to that today, probably be sued
5]Equine colleges are turning out people who have no idea

 

[kirstyhen]

Agree completely, people are much more ready nowadays to find excuses for everything. Instead of the horse being naughty, it has behavioural issues, its saddle doesnt fit, its in pain etc etc. This might be so in some cases, however sometimes the horse is just taking the mickey.
I also think some people think it makes them a better rider if they emphasise their horses bad points. Or perhaps they have a different view of what is really naughty behaviour, i knew someone that had a mare that she decribed as "nuts", i only ever saw it jog, and that was only after shed spent 20 mins winding the lazy thing up!