Letter to my Instructor

[Mule]

I think the important thing with spooky horses is to get them working hard so they have to concentrate and also not to give them the opportunity to stick their head up in the air and look at everything that's happening around them. If the horse is on edge ride it a bit deeper to avoid this.

 

[Mule]

OMG, those free flying lessons. I am trying to give them up but keep qualifying for them.

Yes the free flying lessons 😀 (good description) I'm a frequent flyer 😉

 

[SpringArising]

I can see both sides.

It doesn't sound like your instructor is being diplomatic about things. There's a difference between saying "PLEASE PLEASE LET ME RIDE YOUR HORSE because you're rubbish and messing him up" and "Maybe I could have a little sit on him to get a feel of how he is to ride?". I can definitely see how the former could be offensive.

But it's also not helpful to fall into the trap of thinking only you can ride your horse. I've paid pros to ride mine occasionally if I'm having a certain issue to see if they have any ideas on how I could ride them better.

A while back I had a lesson on my old horse who could be really difficult/irritating to ride. As soon as she started trotting him (I asked if she would be able to get on for a bit as I wanted her to get a feel for him) she said "Wow! He doesn't ride as I thought he would" - I think where possible all instructors should ride clients' horses - how can you know what buttons to push for that SPECIFIC horse if you've never ridden it?

Likewise I've ridden horses who ride totally differently to how they look from the ground!

 

[oldie48]

I can see both sides.

It doesn't sound like your instructor is being diplomatic about things. There's a difference between saying "PLEASE PLEASE LET ME RIDE YOUR HORSE because you're rubbish and messing him up" and "Maybe I could have a little sit on him to get a feel of how he is to ride?". I can definitely see how the former could be offensive.

But it's also not helpful to fall into the trap of thinking only you can ride your horse. I've paid pros to ride mine occasionally if I'm having a certain issue to see if they have any ideas on how I could ride them better.

A while back I had a lesson on my old horse who could be really difficult/irritating to ride. As soon as she started trotting him (I asked if she would be able to get on for a bit as I wanted her to get a feel for him) she said "Wow! He doesn't ride as I thought he would" - I think where possible all instructors should ride clients' horses - how can you know what buttons to push for that SPECIFIC horse if you've never ridden it?

Likewise I've ridden horses who ride totally differently to how they look from the ground!

I had exactly that experience last week, a new trainer sat on Mr B and said just that, followed by he's a lot hotter than I thought. It was helpful for both of us as she changed her approach slightly and the next lesson I had with her was excellent.

 

[catembi]

Maybe it's not the instructor riding or not riding that's the problem, but feeling belittled? Completely outside of riding, it is possible to give feedback to people in a helpful & constructive way or in a condescending & upsetting way, & it's all an enormous moving feast depending on the characters of those involved, their mood on the day, whether things came across as intended? What one person might find upsetting, another might find stimulating, etc. But if you're leaving your lessons wanting to give up instead of feeling inspired, maybe find a trainer with a different manner? (FWIW, over 20 years ago I saw a brilliant rider at a local show, found out who she trained with, booked the same trainer...& just couldn't cope with the trainer's sarcastic & withering approach. I explained on the phone what the issue was & she was genuinely bemused. I'm sure she was a great trainer - but her manner just didn't work for me at the time.)

 

[Tarragon]

I think that the trainer also has to be in tune with the sort of horse you ride. I ride a quirky pony and carefully choose trainers who will take me seriously and work with an adult riding a pony and the pony way of thinking.
There are occasions where I would love the trainer to ride my pony as I personally really think that they would gain an insight that would then help them to help me, plus I do learn a lot from observing, but this is not often possible when you have a 13hh pony

 

[SpringArising]

What one person might find upsetting, another might find stimulating, etc. But if you're leaving your lessons wanting to give up instead of feeling inspired, maybe find a trainer with a different manner? (FWIW, over 20 years ago I saw a brilliant rider at a local show, found out who she trained with, booked the same trainer...& just couldn't cope with the trainer's sarcastic & withering approach. I explained on the phone what the issue was & she was genuinely bemused. I'm sure she was a great trainer - but her manner just didn't work for me at the time.)

This is definitely true - what works for one person won't for another and that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you.

I've been recommended certain instructors by a whole yard full of people before only to find their lessons uninsightful/unhelpful etc.

Some people like an instructor to only focus on the positives, others genuinely want their flaws pointed out.

 

[Gingerwitch]

This is definitely true - what works for one person won't for another and that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you.

I've been recommended certain instructors by a whole yard full of people before only to find their lessons uninsightful/unhelpful etc.

Some people like an instructor to only focus on the positives, others genuinely want their flaws pointed out.

maybe I am unusual I like my flaws to be pointed out but you then need to explain how to fix it in a little more detail than " you need to relax or your tense" if I understand or you give me something to read or research I am Happy, but leaving me with a word sends me into overdrive trying to work out what the actions are to get the word "Relax" as my instructor is intending

 

[milliepops]

maybe I am unusual I like my flaws to be pointed out but you then need to explain how to fix it in a little more detail than " you need to relax or your tense" if I understand or you give me something to read or research I am Happy, but leaving me with a word sends me into overdrive trying to work out what the actions are to get the word "Relax" as my instructor is intending

That I can definitely relate to, there's a local instructor who coaches novice people round dressage tests barking at them to "breathe, breathe, breathe!" all the time in such a way that I think they must get more anxious than if they were told what useful things they might be doing with the horse to get a better test

Have you had a heart to heart with your instructor about all this at all? sometimes people just don't realise how they come across or that there's an issue.

 

[JFTDWS]

That I can definitely relate to, there's a local instructor who coaches novice people round dressage tests barking at them to "breathe, breathe, breathe!" all the time in such a way that I think they must get more anxious than if they were told what useful things they might be doing with the horse to get a better test

Have you had a heart to heart with your instructor about all this at all? sometimes people just don't realise how they come across or that there's an issue.

I've had some almighty breakdowns at people for this - shouting one word at you repeatedly is rarely helpful. "Leg leg LEG" - I'll tell you where you can shove your flippin' legs - I'm already using mine. If it's not working, we need to work out why and fix that because I don't actually have any more legs hidden away in my breeches to whip out and whack on my horse's sides! The worst ones I find for that sort of "training" are local instructors with a few basic qualifications and not much more - I tend to zone them out and just regard them as a pole picker / jump assembler.

 

[milliepops]

oh yes, LEG is the other word that is yelled across the arena all day.
Never mind the fact that if you have to use that much bleedin leg it would be less effort to get off the damn horse and run around yourself!

 

[JFTDWS]

I used to get it with Fergus - no, seriously, this is a decent trot for something with his length of leg! I *can* keep kicking him, but since he's already giving me everything he's got, it's not overly fair...

If the horse isn't responding, you need to work out why and deal with it. Nobody should have to work harder than their horse!

(Obviously not the OP's issue - but I'd say the same is true for "relax" - why aren't you relaxed, why isn't the horse relaxed. Play, find the solution. Don't just keep yelling "relax" like that's going to miraculously fix it...)

 

[blitznbobs]

oh yes, LEG is the other word that is yelled across the arena all day.
Never mind the fact that if you have to use that much bleedin leg it would be less effort to get off the damn horse and run around yourself!

I hate this. LEG seems to be translated into ‘nag the horse all the time’ where as I like a horse to go forward without kicking every stride

 

[milliepops]

I hate this. LEG seems to be translated into ‘nag the horse all the time’ where as I like a horse to go forward without kicking every stride

Yep definitely. And when you have been taught by a leg-leg-leg person it takes time to unlearn the kick reflex and let your horse just travel. Urgh. Good training is priceless.

I did have some giggles with a local family who helped the PC hunter trials etc though. When fence judging, the dad would entertain himself by yelling Leg! Leg! More leg! at everyone who came to his fence (typically some horrid trappy thing). Not the done thing, obviously, but he was a non horsey joker and thought it highly amusing. Which it was, mostly, and often quite helpful advice

 

[JFTDWS]

To be fair, riding xc is one of the few times when yelling leg repeatedly makes some sense...

In some situations at least!

 

[milliepops]

definitely! And getting wise old PC ponies over trappy coffins is one of them. I think that's why it was so funny, and hidden away in the far corner of the course there's no one official there to disapprove

 

[Mule]

I've had some almighty breakdowns at people for this - shouting one word at you repeatedly is rarely helpful. "Leg leg LEG" - I'll tell you where you can shove your flippin' legs - I'm already using mine. If it's not working, we need to work out why and fix that because I don't actually have any more legs hidden away in my breeches to whip out and whack on my horse's sides! The worst ones I find for that sort of "training" are local instructors with a few basic qualifications and not much more - I tend to zone them out and just regard them as a pole picker / jump assembler.

Another thing is they don't tell you what part of the leg to use and what exactly to do with it. I also need to know the purpose of doing something in order to understand it.

 

[spookypony]

I think there's a lot to unpack here.

First, there's the question of why you feel so humiliated by your instructor riding your horse. Second, there's the question of what the instructor riding your horse may or may not accomplish. Third, there's the question of why you don't want the instructor to ride your horse. The three are not necessarily related, and it may help you to look at them as separate questions.

You answered the third question quite clearly, I think: you're worried, based on a bad experience, of what the instructor might do, and the effect it will have on your horse. You must decide if this worry is in fact logical. If you actually trust your instructor well enough to teach you, then you should trust their approach and abilities well enough for your horse. If you do think you have this trust, then perhaps your worry isn't logical, and you need to let go of it a little. If you don't trust her well enough not to hurt your horse, then do you trust her enough to be open to her teaching of you?

Regarding the first question, we can say that there is nothing inherently humiliating about having your instructor ride your horse. In fact, it's a fairly normal occurrence for many instructors. So you need to figure out why it bothers you, personally, so much. Has your instructor ever given you cause to think that she thinks less of you, when she asks? Maybe you should take her for a coffee and discuss it with her?

The second question seems to be the sticking point. There are many different reasons for an instructor to hop on your horse, and only one of them is to demonstrate to you what to do. Generally, when my instructor hops on (which isn't often), it's so that she can find out first-hand what I am feeling, and perhaps try something that she can then explain more clearly either to the horse (as per Cortez), or to me.

Two stories:
The Spooky Pony, as his name suggests, was extraordinarily spooky and tense when I got him. I felt my way into a rather cautious, incremental approach of asking him for anything, always feeling that his panic button was perilously close to his do-something-useful button. My instructor at the time, rather forthright and no-nonsense, asked to ride him once, as he said to feel what it was I was experiencing. And all credit to him, after a short ride during which he didn't appear to do very much but listen to the pony, he got off and said that my approach was working better than what he might have suggested. This allowed him to then help me feel my way forward. Maybe this is a bit like what your instructor has in mind?

The Ballerina Mare is generally very co-operative and quick, but she does have her very tense days, when it's difficult to get a good tune out of her. Last week's lesson was one of those, and we couldn't really get walk (got piaffe instead) or trot (got piaffe instead) or go to the C end of the school (got shooting off in canter to get away from the scary trees). Since those days are not frequent, when I'm on my own I tend either to just do some circles nearer the A end until we are semi-calm, or go for a hack. So it was good that my instructor was there. She first pointed out that things actually didn't look as bad as they felt, which was nice, but then I asked her to hop on. She quickly worked out what I was doing that allowed the mare to be so skittish, made sure that her solution was going to work, and then I hopped on again and she was able to talk me through it. I left the lesson happy that I now have a strategy for working the mare through her skittish days without making either of us angry, and I can now tell when my timing isn't right or when I need to do something very specific.

 

[Fruitcake]

Do we actually know that the rider is offering a million excuses? I didn't pick up on those, OP said that she doesn't want the RI ride the horse because a previous RI did so and upset the horse a LOT. She also said that she knows what the problem is, she finds it hard to relax. What she needs is an instructor who can teach her how to relax on the horse, not one who can relax on the horse her/himself

Exactly this. It’s highly likely that the instructor could ride the horse well as, no doubt, she’ll be more relaxed. As OP already knows this is what she needs to work on, as far as I can see, there’s not much to be gained from demonstrating this. OP is wanting instruction, not schooling for her horse on this case.

Well, the OP has explained exactly how to handle the horse and then said "what is the instructor going to teach the horse that the OP is not already aware of?" Thats not the attitude of a person who is willing to try a new idea.

But it’s not about teaching the horse, it’s about teaching the client. (In this case). The instructor getting on and relaxing the horse is all well and good but OP has already acknowledged that she’s the one who needs to learn how to relax and transmit that to the horse. The instructor being able to do it isn’t going to help the OP do it.


I’m lucky enough to have an absolutely wonderful instructor. In the past, I gave her my horse to be schooled and she oversaw one of her riders do the work with him. He came back beautifully schooled but if I ever have a problem with managing something, I don’t expect that it can be solved by teaching the horse something. On occasions, I have asked her to get on and she has pointed out that I’m the one who has to ride the horse on a daily basis. The horse would be able to leg yield / do a simple change / relax / whatever with her but would that help me to achieve the same? Over the years, we’ve worked on lots of different issues. If something doesn’t work, she finds a different way. (I’m a tricky pupil!) Weve worked on breathing, relaxation, energy levels and visualisation techniques alongside the usual “Put your leg here” stuff.

OP, I really think you need to find a different instructor- maybe one who is able to work with you to help your relaxation and definitely one who you trust more. I hope you find a solution.

 

[daffy44]

Exactly this. It’s highly likely that the instructor could ride the horse well as, no doubt, she’ll be more relaxed. As OP already knows this is what she needs to work on, as far as I can see, there’s not much to be gained from demonstrating this. OP is wanting instruction, not schooling for her horse on this case.



But it’s not about teaching the horse, it’s about teaching the client. (In this case). The instructor getting on and relaxing the horse is all well and good but OP has already acknowledged that she’s the one who needs to learn how to relax and transmit that to the horse. The instructor being able to do it isn’t going to help the OP do it.

"I never said it was about teaching the horse, I am perfectly aware its about teaching the client. But if a client comes in saying that the horse is difficult, and they know how to manage the difficulties, and there is nothing that the Instructor can tell them, its very difficult to move forward. If the client comes in saying the horse is very difficult, but they have worked out the best ways to manage the difficulties, but its not quite enough, does the instructor have any suggestions? Thats an entirely different scenario, and one that can be really successful."


I’m lucky enough to have an absolutely wonderful instructor. In the past, I gave her my horse to be schooled and she oversaw one of her riders do the work with him. He came back beautifully schooled but if I ever have a problem with managing something, I don’t expect that it can be solved by teaching the horse something. On occasions, I have asked her to get on and she has pointed out that I’m the one who has to ride the horse on a daily basis. The horse would be able to leg yield / do a simple change / relax / whatever with her but would that help me to achieve the same? Over the years, we’ve worked on lots of different issues. If something doesn’t work, she finds a different way. (I’m a tricky pupil!) Weve worked on breathing, relaxation, energy levels and visualisation techniques alongside the usual “Put your leg here” stuff.

OP, I really think you need to find a different instructor- maybe one who is able to work with you to help your relaxation and definitely one who you trust more. I hope you find a solution.

"I never said it was about teaching the horse, I am perfectly aware its about teaching the client. But if a client comes in saying that the horse is difficult, and they know how to manage the difficulties, and there is nothing that the Instructor can tell them, its very difficult to move forward. If the client comes in saying the horse is very difficult, but they have worked out the best ways to manage the difficulties, but its not quite enough, does the instructor have any suggestions? Thats an entirely different scenario, and one that can be really successful."
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/letter-to-my-instructor.768083/page-5#5QKA6co2DPO7TJSx.99

 

[JFTDWS]

Exactly this. It’s highly likely that the instructor could ride the horse well as, no doubt, she’ll be more relaxed. As OP already knows this is what she needs to work on, as far as I can see, there’s not much to be gained from demonstrating this. OP is wanting instruction, not schooling for her horse on this case.

But it’s not about teaching the horse, it’s about teaching the client. (In this case). The instructor getting on and relaxing the horse is all well and good but OP has already acknowledged that she’s the one who needs to learn how to relax and transmit that to the horse. The instructor being able to do it isn’t going to help the OP do it.

However, there are many ways to teach a horse to relax - and it's not just the rider who needs to learn to relax here, the horse is "explosive", so clearly needs to learn how to focus / relax while being ridden. Not all horses will benefit from the same strategy to teach them to relax and keep their eyes in the arena so sometimes breaking the cycle of tense rider - tense horse, and sitting up a confident rider with a few tricks up their sleeve allows the trainer to play around with different strategies and find which one will suit the horse best.

There are certainly trainers out there who are good at doing this without riding the horse, but I don't think there is *any* trainer who can find the best solution for every horse without sitting on them (or, indeed, even if they do ride it), and good trainers may have skills in different areas. I totally agree that the OP needs to find an instructor who is more suited to their needs, but I don't think the concept of sitting on the horse is ridiculously inappropriate either.

 

[spookypony]

However, there are many ways to teach a horse to relax - and it's not just the rider who needs to learn to relax here, the horse is "explosive", so clearly needs to learn how to focus / relax while being ridden. Not all horses will benefit from the same strategy to teach them to relax and keep their eyes in the arena so sometimes breaking the cycle of tense rider - tense horse, and sitting up a confident rider with a few tricks up their sleeve allows the trainer to play around with different strategies and find which one will suit the horse best.

There are certainly trainers out there who are good at doing this without riding the horse, but I don't think there is *any* trainer who can find the best solution for every horse without sitting on them (or, indeed, even if they do ride it), and good trainers may have skills in different areas. I totally agree that the OP needs to find an instructor who is more suited to their needs, but I don't think the concept of sitting on the horse is ridiculously inappropriate either.

That's pretty much exactly the situation I was trying to describe, and I think you are right in saying that maybe the match of instructor and rider isn't perfect here, although of course only the OP and the instructor are in a position to say. Even if the student is confident, the very fact of sitting mainly on only one horse might make the student less aware of or open to alternative strategies; stuck in the proverbial rut. Has certainly happened to me!

 

[PaddyMonty]

Just like to add that when I get on a pupils horse it is generally for one of two reasons.
1) I want to understand why something that should work doesn't
2) Experience suggests that we need to go down a different path training wise and I want to check how the horse will react before I ask the pupil to do it. If the reaction isn't a good one I would rather my neck was on the line than the pupils.
Either case the time I spend in the saddle is short at all the time I will be talking to the pupil about what I am doing (or trying to do) and why.
Only time I will spend an extended time in the saddle is if the pupil asks me to ride their horse and they WANT to see what the horse can do.