Level 5 accredited diploma in equine podiatry
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ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Brilliant, been a long time coming. Now we need the farriery syllabus brought up to date to include barefoot working hooves.
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Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Is this just certification of the current EPA training regime?
'The new LANTRA Awards qualification has been closely based on that same assessment and qualification approach, and so represents and endorses some of the highest industry standards that have been set by EPA and EPT over many years.'
Because some of the graduates of the existing scheme are sadly lacking in knowledge and expertise. How about this as an example of qualified EPA work.
Nope, not convinced.
'The new LANTRA Awards qualification has been closely based on that same assessment and qualification approach, and so represents and endorses some of the highest industry standards that have been set by EPA and EPT over many years.'
Because some of the graduates of the existing scheme are sadly lacking in knowledge and expertise. How about this as an example of qualified EPA work.
Nope, not convinced.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Deleted.
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Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Oh yes, there are certainly crappy farriers too, as I know to my cost.
But there are also crappy qualified barefoot trimmers.
If the new Lantra diploma has a more robust syllabus and stricter exams than before, then good. If not, then not good.
But there are also crappy qualified barefoot trimmers.
If the new Lantra diploma has a more robust syllabus and stricter exams than before, then good. If not, then not good.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
OK you missed my point. Nevermind.
DizzyDoughnut
Well-Known Member
?? they are both terrible examples, how could anyone let alone a professional look at that and think they've done a good job? I'm so grateful to have a really good farrier but also try and learn as much as I can myself so I'd hopefully notice if things weren't looking good because no matter what qualifications someone has got they could still be bad at the job.
planete
Well-Known Member
I would be more impressed if some of the current EPs actually had to follow scientifically proven best practice instead of doing a course and then, quote, 'doing their own thing'. I cannot see this changing just because they have an official qualification. Tiddlypom's pic is exactly what one well (self) publicised EP did to my horse until she got the push.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
The EPA(UK) acts as a self-regulatory body, setting and enforcing standards, with members all working to a Code of Conduct and the National Occupational Standards for Hoof Care in the UK – of which the EPA were instrumental in helping to develop.
If a client passes on a vet's comments that 'the horses toes are too long , please address the issue', the professional and educated reply from the hoof care professional is not 'Your vet wants me to dump the toes, it's not possible, I can't shorten them without hurting the horse'
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A reminder of how my other mare's feet got after 12 months + of 4 to 6 weekly visits by the EPA registered trimmer. Trimmer insisted that my vet wanted them to 'dump the toes'.
Also, when I asked if I should get fresh x rays to help them trim this mare, the reply should not be 'Don't bother. No matter what the x rays showed, I wouldn't trim this horse any differently.'
If a client passes on a vet's comments that 'the horses toes are too long , please address the issue', the professional and educated reply from the hoof care professional is not 'Your vet wants me to dump the toes, it's not possible, I can't shorten them without hurting the horse'
.A reminder of how my other mare's feet got after 12 months + of 4 to 6 weekly visits by the EPA registered trimmer. Trimmer insisted that my vet wanted them to 'dump the toes'.
Also, when I asked if I should get fresh x rays to help them trim this mare, the reply should not be 'Don't bother. No matter what the x rays showed, I wouldn't trim this horse any differently.'
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ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
They were right though, your vet did want them to dump the toes. They may have phrased it "take the toe back", it's the same thing.
I still think it's a big step forward, and a shame to criticise the Lantra accreditation. It's a landmark. It's the first nationally accredited qualification for barefoot trimming, and it should push farriery in the direction of getting trimming of working barefoot horses into their syllabus.
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Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Taking the toe back and dumping the toe are completely different procedures.
The former involves correcting the whole HPA, and requires skill. It is as well for the hoof care professional to understand what this means when a vet asks for it.
The latter is just cutting into the toe.
The former involves correcting the whole HPA, and requires skill. It is as well for the hoof care professional to understand what this means when a vet asks for it.
The latter is just cutting into the toe.
HelenBack
Well-Known Member
I saw this news item yesterday and also had reservations as my experiences with EPA trimmers have largely been negative. From several conversations with one of them it seems they're taught a totally different take on physiology to what farriers get taught but surely physiology is physiology and there can only be one correct version?
I've also had conversations with both that one and another one where I thought a lot of what they said was pure bull! And I have also seen lots of long toes on horses that podiatrists have trimmed too. So I'm afraid I have decided to swerve this particular profession as well now.
I thought there was a move to add something about barefoot to the farrier syllabus but has this not happened?
I've been through a few different trimmers and farriers since my horse came out of shoes and have ended up with my farrier not because he's particularly a barefoot specialist but because he wants to do what suits the horse and the owner best and he's willing to discuss things. He knows my horse's history and agrees that he is better not being shod and would probably refuse if I did ask him for shoes. He seems to know how to do a functioning barefoot trim and has given me advice for keeping things tidy in between his trims. My horse did finish up sore after one trim but we had a good discussion about it afterwards and worked out how to avoid that happening again. So I don't think you can say fairer than that really.
That said there are several farriers in my area who I wouldn't entertain letting anywhere near my horse. It is difficult.
I've also had conversations with both that one and another one where I thought a lot of what they said was pure bull! And I have also seen lots of long toes on horses that podiatrists have trimmed too. So I'm afraid I have decided to swerve this particular profession as well now.
I thought there was a move to add something about barefoot to the farrier syllabus but has this not happened?
I've been through a few different trimmers and farriers since my horse came out of shoes and have ended up with my farrier not because he's particularly a barefoot specialist but because he wants to do what suits the horse and the owner best and he's willing to discuss things. He knows my horse's history and agrees that he is better not being shod and would probably refuse if I did ask him for shoes. He seems to know how to do a functioning barefoot trim and has given me advice for keeping things tidy in between his trims. My horse did finish up sore after one trim but we had a good discussion about it afterwards and worked out how to avoid that happening again. So I don't think you can say fairer than that really.
That said there are several farriers in my area who I wouldn't entertain letting anywhere near my horse. It is difficult.
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
A short toe can't be trimmed into a horse that has a stretched white line, it has to be grown down from the coronet and takes time. My old pony had terribly long toes when his shoes were removed and I watched as the new angle grew down the hoof.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
It took about 5 months for the older mare to go from this with the barefoot trimmer:-
To this under the care of a good farrier. No toe dumping, no bleeding, no discomfort, no need for hoof boots or pads. The toe had been allowed to grow away and the heels to drop. I don't dare to think what it would look like now if I hadn't changed hoof care professional. They still aren't brilliant feet, but they are waay better than in the above pic.
I don't have pics of the above mare before the barefoot trimmer took her over, but her feet were in a similar state to the after pics. It was uneducated trimming that lead to those excessively long toes, and educated trimming that brought them back again.
Similar here with the other mare. Barefoot trimmer.
Few months later after farrier took over. There was a more complicated route for the second mare involving a time back in shoes and gel injections into both front coffins, but again her foot balance before the trimmer took over was more like the after pics.
I'm all for regulation and robust training of barefoot trimmers, but this sort of work cannot be considered acceptable.
To this under the care of a good farrier. No toe dumping, no bleeding, no discomfort, no need for hoof boots or pads. The toe had been allowed to grow away and the heels to drop. I don't dare to think what it would look like now if I hadn't changed hoof care professional. They still aren't brilliant feet, but they are waay better than in the above pic.
I don't have pics of the above mare before the barefoot trimmer took her over, but her feet were in a similar state to the after pics. It was uneducated trimming that lead to those excessively long toes, and educated trimming that brought them back again.
Similar here with the other mare. Barefoot trimmer.
Few months later after farrier took over. There was a more complicated route for the second mare involving a time back in shoes and gel injections into both front coffins, but again her foot balance before the trimmer took over was more like the after pics.
I'm all for regulation and robust training of barefoot trimmers, but this sort of work cannot be considered acceptable.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
We will have to disagree about how different they are.
Unless you take down the sole callous at the toe, or the hoof wall is above sole height at the toe (which it should not be) , the hoof pastern axis can't be altered by bringing back the toe.
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Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Nonetheless, my farrier was able to bring the toes back and beef up the heels, thus rescuing the HPA in both horses, all the while without causing the horses discomfort. It was done over a period of several months, it could not be done all at once.
I would expect a well trained hoof care professional to be able to do this. I certainly wouldn't expect a well trained hoof professional to say that they couldn't do it even if x rays were taken, after they had allowed the feet to get into such a state.
It is a sad state of affairs when a vet can instantly spot a horse which has been trimmed by a barefoot trimmer just by looking at the long toe/low heel hoof balance.
It was especially disappointing with the younger mare, who already had some foot and lameness issues due to previous poor farriery. The trimmer knew that it was vital that the toes were kept short, as they were when they took over. I do not believe that they had been taught the skills necessary to do this, or to realise why it was so important.
I would expect a well trained hoof care professional to be able to do this. I certainly wouldn't expect a well trained hoof professional to say that they couldn't do it even if x rays were taken, after they had allowed the feet to get into such a state.
It is a sad state of affairs when a vet can instantly spot a horse which has been trimmed by a barefoot trimmer just by looking at the long toe/low heel hoof balance.
It was especially disappointing with the younger mare, who already had some foot and lameness issues due to previous poor farriery. The trimmer knew that it was vital that the toes were kept short, as they were when they took over. I do not believe that they had been taught the skills necessary to do this, or to realise why it was so important.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
according to post 9 the vet said the toes were too long. I don't see vet mentioned dumping.
Whatever you like to call it the vet was right the toes were too long and a hoof care specialist should have been able to deal with it.
The Lantra qualification does not fill me with much hope. There had been plenty of toes left way too long by EPs. I doubt a piece of paper or different training will make much difference.
Once you have done the training (in any job) and you get out in the real world then how you trim can be very different.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
This is the first mention of raising the heels you have made. Of course you can restore broken back hoof pastern axis if you can get the heels to beef up. You can't do it by shortening the toe, unless what is meant by that is lowering the height of the toe, and from your photos there was only length available to go at, not height.
What resolved your mare's hoof pastern axis was the increase in the height of the heel. That normally needs the heels put to work. How your farrier got the heel to get to work, if trimming was the only thing that changed with this horse (and not work levels, resolution of thrush, removal of pain etc) is an interesting question, but in my limited experience it's rarely trim alone that sorts out feet like that.
Your trimmer clearly wasn't doing a good job.
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Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Under the trimmer's care for both horses the toes had got too long, and the heels had got too low. Both horses were out of work.
It can be difficult to pick out just what the aim was from the barefoot wafflery that came out, so I may be mistaken, but I *think* that the aim was to get the heels to beef up by getting them closer to the ground. I don't think that the intended aim was for the toes to then also run forward as they did, but nonetheless that is what happened, and when it did, it was not corrected even after I had voiced my and my vet's concerns about it.
When I tried to talk about the HPA angle, I was told that HPA X rays are useless because it depends on how the horse is stood for the X ray ?
. Now, that is in fact true, but funnily enough vets know that too, and are practiced in getting the horse stood correctly for the X rays to be taken.
That trimmer qualified in 2018, so relatively recently.
It can be difficult to pick out just what the aim was from the barefoot wafflery that came out, so I may be mistaken, but I *think* that the aim was to get the heels to beef up by getting them closer to the ground. I don't think that the intended aim was for the toes to then also run forward as they did, but nonetheless that is what happened, and when it did, it was not corrected even after I had voiced my and my vet's concerns about it.
When I tried to talk about the HPA angle, I was told that HPA X rays are useless because it depends on how the horse is stood for the X ray ?
. Now, that is in fact true, but funnily enough vets know that too, and are practiced in getting the horse stood correctly for the X rays to be taken.That trimmer qualified in 2018, so relatively recently.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I totally don't understand this. In this case (and others) I thought the whole idea was to bring the toe back, get heel height/beef up the heels and get them working. Of course if there was infection it would need to be cleared first but I haven't found that doing that automatically starts to produce the results.
I disagree that you cannot do this by bringing the toe back. I certainly don't think you would ever (or at least I never have) lower the height of the toe by rasping the toe/sole from underneath. That would surely make the horse sore..
I don't find the question as to how the farrier got the heel to work to be interesting, it seems to be obvious. I expect he got the results by trimming in the same way as I and many others do for this situation. I don't see anything odd about it. Just everyday normality.
I cannot see how if you take the above example ie post 14 pic. 3 you would ever get the foot back just by treating the thrush and working. Assuming the thrush was cleared then for me the trim would be the number one weapon to make progress. Obviously you are going to have to wait for the new growth to come down once you get the trimming in place and obviously you would also work the horse but the trimming would be the key. In my experience if you just do the thrush and work part the foot will still look the same as in pic 3. .
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I don't think the idea of long toes is recent with some trimmers. I saw many the spitting image of your long toe pic over 15 years ago. In fact I remember at several horse workshops in the mid noughties I could recognise the trimmer by the length of the toes.
GinaGeo
Well-Known Member
I have applied for and been accepted onto this new intake for the Level 5 Accredited Qualification. It is a huge step forward for there to be an alternative accredited Hoofcare Profession and hopefully it will help to drive forward positive change.
I've ended up applying for it, having taken my own horses shoes off, with niggles that I could see progressing and was powerless to stop whilst they were shod. I do not blame my farrier, I think he was doing a good job with the tools he had, and I have and would recommend him. However, I was watching the Caudal Heel of more than one horse breaking down and decided I needed to do something about it. I've witnessed hugely positive changes, in a short amount of time, and whilst I don't feel that shoes are the enemy I do think a more holistic view can only be beneficial. There is an awful lot more to a healthy horse and healthy hooves than a metal shoe and I have found that an lot of farriers don't go beyond it - which is a real shame.
I have ended up trimming my own horses as though my farrier was good, was trimming as though a shoe was to be applied and didn't take the same pride in an unshod foot as he did his shod work. I get it - it's not what he's passionate about. I also found I couldn't get myself on the books of any alternative professionals who I would have wanted to use and had space on their books. So I thought I had better put my money where my mouth is and go and do the job I'd be happy with, myself.
I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it for others without a qualification and without being answerable to an overseeing body and I am well aware that there are less able members in all professions and that includes farriers and trimmers.
And TP - I've spent the last 9months sorting out long toes and developing height in non-existent heels in my own horses - it's not something that I will ever be turning a blind eye to.
I've ended up applying for it, having taken my own horses shoes off, with niggles that I could see progressing and was powerless to stop whilst they were shod. I do not blame my farrier, I think he was doing a good job with the tools he had, and I have and would recommend him. However, I was watching the Caudal Heel of more than one horse breaking down and decided I needed to do something about it. I've witnessed hugely positive changes, in a short amount of time, and whilst I don't feel that shoes are the enemy I do think a more holistic view can only be beneficial. There is an awful lot more to a healthy horse and healthy hooves than a metal shoe and I have found that an lot of farriers don't go beyond it - which is a real shame.
I have ended up trimming my own horses as though my farrier was good, was trimming as though a shoe was to be applied and didn't take the same pride in an unshod foot as he did his shod work. I get it - it's not what he's passionate about. I also found I couldn't get myself on the books of any alternative professionals who I would have wanted to use and had space on their books. So I thought I had better put my money where my mouth is and go and do the job I'd be happy with, myself.
I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it for others without a qualification and without being answerable to an overseeing body and I am well aware that there are less able members in all professions and that includes farriers and trimmers.
And TP - I've spent the last 9months sorting out long toes and developing height in non-existent heels in my own horses - it's not something that I will ever be turning a blind eye to.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Good for you, GGAnd TP - I've spent the last 9months sorting out long toes and developing height in non-existent heels in my own horses - it's not something that I will ever be turning a blind eye to.
.Maybe you will be able to impart some of your experience to the course lecturers. I also hope that there is a good section on how to liaise professionally with vets.
I still do not know if the trimmer I used was originally taught to trim long toe/low heel, or if they were taught correctly and went off piste after qualifying.
Kat
Well-Known Member
It is funny how one bad trimmer not only tarnishes the reputation of the whole profession but also a brand new accredited course and yet a bad farrier is just a one off.
I've seen some shockingly bad farriery, tall "tin can feet" or long toes and under run heels and wonky unbalanced feet. I do however know that those individuals are not indicative of the whole profession.
I've seen some shockingly bad farriery, tall "tin can feet" or long toes and under run heels and wonky unbalanced feet. I do however know that those individuals are not indicative of the whole profession.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Well said Kat.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Oh, I've always agreed that there are bad farriers, we all know that.
It's not just the one trimmer, sadly - the unshod long toe/low heel balance is what leads vets to spot trimmers' work.
As far as I can see the course is the same old one but with fancy new accreditation, unless anyone can tell me any different?
There are less than 40 fully qualified EPA members, and many more farriers. I would be delighted if my experience was an isolated one, there are no winners in this.
It gives me no pleasure to relay my experiences. I thought that I was doing the best by my horses in employing a qualified trimmer rather than a farrier, and I researched which qualification to go for. It was not long ago on here that trimmers were being held up on here as being far better for your horse than farriers - it's gone rather quiet about that of late.
It's not just the one trimmer, sadly - the unshod long toe/low heel balance is what leads vets to spot trimmers' work.
As far as I can see the course is the same old one but with fancy new accreditation, unless anyone can tell me any different?
There are less than 40 fully qualified EPA members, and many more farriers. I would be delighted if my experience was an isolated one, there are no winners in this.
It gives me no pleasure to relay my experiences. I thought that I was doing the best by my horses in employing a qualified trimmer rather than a farrier, and I researched which qualification to go for. It was not long ago on here that trimmers were being held up on here as being far better for your horse than farriers - it's gone rather quiet about that of late.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
TP I'm very confused by your posts. Part of that is because your photos are taken from too high an angle where it's actually impossible to see the true changes. Then there is your statement that your farrier corrected the hoof pastern axis while showing a picture where, apart from the very end half inch of toe, the hoof pastern axis appears perfect. Then you insist that the toe was not dumped, while in your "after" photo, the dumping* of the toe is, to me, absolutely clear.
I haven't seen your horse in the flesh and that, or photos taken with the camera on the floor, might tell a completely different story, but purely from your photos the changes done by your farrier are at least as much cosmetic as they are therapeutic. The toes were too long, that's not disputed.
* vertical removal of the excess toe length back to close to the white line, which in this case has been accompanied by a high mustang roll to round off the end, rather than leave a straight cut. Dumping in this context is not a criticism, just a fact.
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I haven't seen your horse in the flesh and that, or photos taken with the camera on the floor, might tell a completely different story, but purely from your photos the changes done by your farrier are at least as much cosmetic as they are therapeutic. The toes were too long, that's not disputed.
* vertical removal of the excess toe length back to close to the white line, which in this case has been accompanied by a high mustang roll to round off the end, rather than leave a straight cut. Dumping in this context is not a criticism, just a fact.
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brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
And you let them?The EPA(UK) acts as a self-regulatory body, setting and enforcing standards, with members all working to a Code of Conduct and the National Occupational Standards for Hoof Care in the UK – of which the EPA were instrumental in helping to develop.
If a client passes on a vet's comments that 'the horses toes are too long , please address the issue', the professional and educated reply from the hoof care professional is not 'Your vet wants me to dump the toes, it's not possible, I can't shorten them without hurting the horse'
A reminder of how my other mare's feet got after 12 months + of 4 to 6 weekly visits by the EPA registered trimmer. Trimmer insisted that my vet wanted them to 'dump the toes'.
Also, when I asked if I should get fresh x rays to help them trim this mare, the reply should not be 'Don't bother. No matter what the x rays showed, I wouldn't trim this horse any differently.'
View attachment 75817
paddy555
Well-Known Member
of course there are poor farriers and not just one. Sadly there are also more than one bad trimmer. Long toe/under run heel seems to be very common with some trimmers. I'm not sure why.
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
I'd say that a lot of shod horses have taken years developing those long toe underrun heel feet and have them when the shoes are taken off and it takes more that a couple of trims before the foot gains enough strength in the caudal hoof to get back into a normal shape. That new frog, heel and tight white line has to grow in , it can't just be trimmed in no matter how much the toe is dumped.