Licensed breeders.......

What’s particularly annoyed you here, Lev? I mean, it looks like a puppy farmer to me without looking into too deeply. Schnoodles, cavapoos, cockapoos-all at once?
 
Cinnamontoast said:
What’s particularly annoyed you here, Lev? I mean, it looks like a puppy farmer to me without looking into too deeply. Schnoodles, cavapoos, cockapoos-all at once?
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I find it deeply ironic and also incredibly concerning that the general public are being encouraged by local authorities to go to licensed breeders to get a healthy quality puppy, when clearly this licensed breeder is a puppy farmer who doesn’t care about anything but making money? I would never ever buy a puppy from this kind of morally bereft idiot, but people are being told they should do so ?
 
I am that naive buyer who lost my beloved 6 year old labrador PTS on Monday ( on operating table when vet realised outlook was hopeless despite all our best efforts:( ) and did all the checks we felt necessary before going to see the puppies. Registered breeder with local authority - very, very convincing set up that they were small private family dogs etc. etc. both parents health checked (they were not paperwork we were shown was false). so basically we did all you are supposed to do and still thanks to very lax licensing laws etc they were still allowed to operate.

Tentatively looking for a reputable breeder with at least breeding pair that are healthy and genuine. I dont think I or any of my family could go through that grief and misery again - but where do you start and who do you trust?
 
Levrier said:
I find it deeply ironic and also incredibly concerning that the general public are being encouraged by local authorities to go to licensed breeders to get a healthy quality puppy, when clearly this licensed breeder is a puppy farmer who doesn’t care about anything but making money? I would never ever buy a puppy from this kind of morally bereft idiot, but people are being told they should do so ?
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It is a very imperfect system. But some sort of licensed place is at least traceable and theoretically able to be inspected. Its a step towards getting people to stop buying pups from just the very most obvious puppy farms or that have been illegally trafficked, like the ones that bring the pups to the local petrol station for you to pick up out of the boot (I was an eye witness to this once). It's ridiculous that people can't use their brains and spot what should be obvious but how long have animal rights organisations been trying to drill it into people's heads that pups need to be seen with the mother and over 8 weeks? And still some people just... don't? Not even the bare minimum. Never mind health testing and properly socialised pups.

The number of likes on that page is terrible. People just see cute fluffy puppies and lose all critical thinking ability.

@Mrs Jingle I'm so sorry about your pup :( if they are going to the lengths of faking paperwork you at least can't blame yourself for not doing due diligence. That's a whole other level of awful...
 
Mrs Jingle said:
I am that naive buyer who lost my beloved 6 year old labrador PTS on Monday ( on operating table when vet realised outlook was hopeless despite all our best efforts:( ) and did all the checks we felt necessary before going to see the puppies. Registered breeder with local authority - very, very convincing set up that they were small private family dogs etc. etc. both parents health checked (they were not paperwork we were shown was false). so basically we did all you are supposed to do and still thanks to very lax licensing laws etc they were still allowed to operate.

Tentatively looking for a reputable breeder with at least breeding pair that are healthy and genuine. I dont think I or any of my family could go through that grief and misery again - but where do you start and who do you trust?
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I’m so sorry to hear that. ?

You start with Thistle on here. She’s on a gundog group with some excellent labradors. My trainer mate recently got a pup for a celebrity client (I’m only saying that because my mate would only source very good pups) from the group’s secretary who runs the only kennels I’ll put mine in. No idea if you’re near us, we’re in Herts. See if you can get hold of Thistle (Clodagh will help, they’re friendly) or I”ll ask my trainer.

Trouble is, they are one of the most common/popular breeds so breeding coefficient might be high in certain litters. I wouldn’t touch a lab whose parents didn’t have excellent hip/elbow scores.
 
I am in Ireland Cinnamontoast so even more difficult here to find well bred and reputable dog breeders of any breed sadly. and with the pandemic travelling anywhere too far afield in the future looks unlikely and will just to add to the difficulties.
 
Mrs Jingle said:
I am in Ireland Cinnamontoast so even more difficult here to find well bred and reputable dog breeders of any breed sadly. and with the pandemic travelling anywhere too far afield in the future looks unlikely and will just to add to the difficulties.
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Not impossible. I know people who’ve imported. I might be very bold and refer you to Moobli and Corvus Corax, both of whom, I believe, have done this. I understand you can import a dog across borders. You just might not be able to see it in the flesh before getting it.
 
Things changed last year (in England at least) which means that many more breeders should fall under the scope of licensing so it's not quite the red flag of puppy farming high volume breeding it once was, though I still struggle to shake the association. It's flawed, as is the Kennel Club Assured Breeder scheme, and it irritates me that there's no one single thing you can tell a puppy purchaser to look for as a guarantee of health. The Puppy Contract is about the closest but still requires much more active research and critical thinking than many buyers are willing to do.

This is no legislating against eejits who want a speshul coloured puppy NOW.
 
Hopefully people will see that post and see them for what they are before buying one of the next litters they'll churn out.

On a side note: I have never understood why a cockerpoo is marketed as a perfect family dog. It's a cross of two working dogs which are both high energy, that's ignoring the fact you're paying £1150 for a mongrel.
 
Had a wee read around and in one of the media articles
"Sgt Amber Yahchouchi from Ormskirk Police said: “This is an absolutely despicable offence undoubtedly motivated by pure greed as the dogs which were stolen were the most valuable breeds."

Does that mean that only some of their dogs were stolen and they had... more than 6 pregnant/nursing bitches at once? Or does the Sgt thing cockamixes are made of gold?
 
Levrier said:
Here is an excellent example of why I would NEVER recommend that someone buys a puppy from a council registered breeder..... even one who boasts about having a 5 star rating.....?

https://www.facebook.com/LortonCockapoos/
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if you understand how the new legislation is administered and how a premise is inspected you would be able to make further enquiries about this premises and bring your concerns to the attention of the relevant authorities to enable welfare breaches to be rectified.

Do you understand the Act and scoring system.
 
Mrs. Jingle, I am so sorry for your loss. My first GSD came from what I now know was a backyard breeder. No health checks but my first GSD was a lovely dog. Is there an on line data base you can check for health scores? In the USA most breeders use OFA and you can look up results on the website. Some breeders use PennHip and in Canada they certify through Geulph, IIRC. Good luck on finding a new, healthy dog.
 
When I was looking for a pup I came across several "Assured Breeders" who really felt like puppy farmers to me, one assured breeder told me without me even asking that she wasn't a puppy farmer which felt like an odd thing to say unprompted.

I guess if they make it look reputable it's hard to know who to trust but the basics I read are that they shouldn't be breeding more than two types of breed, you should meet the mother and rest of the litter at least once, and check their registered names on the kennel club website. Can also check for COI as a good breeder will try to stick to the average even if line breeding.

I found a hobby breeder who has been sensationally for me, as a first time owner I've asked her so many questions even a month after getting my pup and she answers them helpfully all the time. I've also asked people on here like Clodagh for a lot of advice so it's just finding people you can trust and taking a chance.
 
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The kennel club’s assured breeder scheme does not sit in line with defra’s new Act. The KC would not work with the government when the new legislation was written.

The KC is happy with bitches being bred more than once a year for instance.
 
AdorableAlice said:
The kennel club’s assured breeder scheme does not sit in line with defra’s new Act. The KC would not work with the government when the new legislation was written.

The KC is happy with bitches being bred more than once a year for instance.
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The kennel club won’t register a litter if the previous litter was born under 1 year before, except in exceptional circumstances and then only with KC prior approval
 
SA - the KC’s ‘assured breeder’ scheme is exploited by some unscrupulous people in exactly the same way as the ‘licensed breeder’ scheme is being exploited here. The breeder uses the scheme to give them a sense of respectability with the general public when they have anything but.... hence I don’t set any store by the KC scheme either sadly!

AA - I assume that question is rhetorical since I have said repeatedly on the forum that there is insufficient easily accessible information in the public domain about the licensed breeder scheme. The very fact that this puppy farmer has been accredited with 5 stars under the scheme shows how it can be (and is) exploited and misused to present an air of credibility and respectability from those who are anything but. I’m sure that the puppy farmer meets the requirements for “welfare standards” in the same way as so many meet the standards for (for example) RSPCA welfare standards by providing water and food for their animals. What they don’t meet is any moral and ethical standards for care of their animals, which are being churned out to make a quick buck with no thought about the animals concerned whatsoever
 
I found the more research I did the less the KC assured breeders scheme appealed to me, whereas when I started I was certain I wanted to get a pup from an assured breeder. I felt that was safer, reliable and more likely to get me a good pup which is something a lot of other people must think. If I didn't stop looking over winter (but carried on researching) I think I would have gone down the assured breeders route through ignorance and assumptions
 
I'm no fan of the kennel clubs and don't know if it is the same in every area, but a friend did the EKC Assured Breeder's assessment and said it was like the Spanish Inquisition/extremely thorough. I'm assuming, as a result there are very few on the list for our breed in this area :eek:
Which as you can imagine is now great fun with the world and his wife looking for a lockdown puppy.
 
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blackcob said:
General musing - once you're 'in' dogs, through sport or showing or whatever, it's easy to buy puppies from people you know and trust and whose stock you have seen in the flesh, doing whatever they do. It must seem an impossible task to a casual pet puppy buyer. Is there anything that can be done to bridge the gap?
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I have seen people recommend that you spend time attending local shows just to watch and meeting people showing the breed you want and building some contacts through just chatting. Which is a great idea but I honestly don't think the majority of people would do that or that people showing their dogs would necessarily want to be pestered by the general public on that sort of scale.
 
did anyone else see the 'we are making another your new puppy program' advert posted yesterday. It was one of those I think where they were giving people advice, and despite all of that one of them still got a cockerpoo from someone who was at least a very commercial breeder. So I'm not sure how that gap gets bridged or what fills the gap for 'puppy supply' for those people. Especially those who have decided they will have one and therefore want one fairly quickly.
 
Levrier said:
SA - the KC’s ‘assured breeder’ scheme is exploited by some unscrupulous people in exactly the same way as the ‘licensed breeder’ scheme is being exploited here. The breeder uses the scheme to give them a sense of respectability with the general public when they have anything but.... hence I don’t set any store by the KC scheme either sadly!

AA - I assume that question is rhetorical since I have said repeatedly on the forum that there is insufficient easily accessible information in the public domain about the licensed breeder scheme. The very fact that this puppy farmer has been accredited with 5 stars under the scheme shows how it can be (and is) exploited and misused to present an air of credibility and respectability from those who are anything but. I’m sure that the puppy farmer meets the requirements for “welfare standards” in the same way as so many meet the standards for (for example) RSPCA welfare standards by providing water and food for their animals. What they don’t meet is any moral and ethical standards for care of their animals, which are being churned out to make a quick buck with no thought about the animals concerned whatsoever
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There is everything the public needs easily accessible in the public domain. You and some others simply don't understand the law and its administration.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ties-licensing-guidance-for-local-authorities
 
smolmaus said:
I have seen people recommend that you spend time attending local shows just to watch and meeting people showing the breed you want and building some contacts through just chatting. Which is a great idea but I honestly don't think the majority of people would do that or that people showing their dogs would necessarily want to be pestered by the general public on that sort of scale.
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I disagree, I've had plenty of people come to events and I and others are happy to spend the time talking to them, even if I'm busy. As I'm pleased they took the time to do it.
 
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