little foxes

a1b2c3

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Little Foxes
I dreamed, and lo! In this my dream the cranks had had their way,
Fox-hunting was forbid by law for ever and a day;
No more across the English grass might English sportsmen ride,
No more the scarlet coats be seen at winter covert-side.
But what of “Master Reynard” whom this law was passed to save
From the death that so befits him as a brigand wild and brave?
Alas! I saw quite clearly what must now become his fate
With none to stand between him and the chicken farmers hate.
The shot at dusk, the shot at dawn, the snatched uncertain aim,
The wounds that only slowly kill, the wounds that only maim,
The bitter gripe of poison and the burning rending pain,
The broken teeth and bleeding jaws that bite the trap in vain.
The roly cubs in summer dawns that scrapped and played amain
Are dying now by inches, for their dam comes not again;
She is lying at a dyke back with a gin upon her pad,
A broken bleeding sacrifice to sentiment run mad.
I woke and new it but a dream; for yet old Reynard ran
As he did before the wolf-pack ‘ere ever there was man;
I woke, and breathed a little prayer for fear of what impends;
‘God pity Britain’s foxes and save them from their friends’.

Phil Stevenson, 1929


I put this poem in my dissertation on the politics behind the ban, i liked it so thought some of you might too :)
 

a1b2c3

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At least they die a hell of a lot quicker from hounds than they do by being wounded by a gun shot and slowly dieing.
 

endymion

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So no-one in England shoots, poisons or snares foxes do they? Yes they do and have done for many many years despite fox hunting.

Perhaps you should check a reliable source on wounding rates (i.e not the middleway lobby group) from shooting, they are not high enough to warrant a preference of hunting with hounds on welfare grounds.

Have you ever heard of stress and exhaustion?

Do you know what can happen to a fox in the cold of winter that has been run by the hunt but gets away?
 

Ereiam_jh

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Perhaps you should check a reliable source on wounding rates

But I thought the Middle Way Groups research is the only research that has passed peer review.

The point is wether more foxes are now being shot. Etc.

There is a benefit to a species in being a quarry rather than just a pest.
 

a1b2c3

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lol, having completed research for my dissertation on the subject, i have looked at studies on the subject from both sides, including LACS, RSPCA, CPHA, DEFRA and IFAW.... i think im pretty well up on the subject actually.

And no, i have never heard of either stress or exhaustion, and i certainly wouldnt want to have sound facts upon which to base my dissertation would i? i want a bad grade....
 

endymion

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Well emotive poems really aren't suitable material for a scientific dissertation are they?

What do think happens to an overheated animal if left out in the cold? What would happen to your horse (if u have one) if was pushed to exhaustion, overheated then left out in the middle of Dec/Jan?

Ever heard of road accident victims dying through shock when they have no other injuries?

I too have read all the lit, I'm a Bsc Ecology and conservation grad so I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about dearie!

However, will be happy to read any lit you have in support of hunting with hounds that is scientific.
 

endymion

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Well that remains to be seen.

We can't possibly jump to any conclusions so soon after a ban. We have to wait until we have long term results.

If it turned out in ten years that foxes were being persecuted on a worse scale than pre-ban i would honestly re-consider my opinions. But that is something that remains to be seen and all these people making flying assumptions are talking out their ar*e!

So there :p
 

a1b2c3

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Well emotive poems really aren't suitable material for a scientific dissertation are they?

-its not actually included in the dissertation body text, its a supplementary piece that i chose to include.

What do think happens to an overheated animal if left out in the cold?

Ever heard of road accident victims dying through shock when they have no other injuries?

I too have read all the lit, I'm a Bsc Ecology and conservation grad so I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about dearie!

However, will be happy to read any lit you have in support of hunting with hounds that is scientific.

-i have based my opinion of the subject on my research (i was pretty much on the fence before) and have no need to keep talking around in circles with people about it..... people like you would never change your mind, and i dont care enough about you to want to attempt to do so. not being rude, but if i dont know you, and you arent relevant to my diss, there isnt any valid reason for doing so.
 

Ereiam_jh

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Well emotive poems really aren't suitable material for a scientific dissertation are they?

It's a dissertation about politics Endy not a scientific dissertation.

For someone who so likes to crow about his academic acheivement you do seem to constantly get the basics wrong.
 

endymion

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fair do's.

My opinion is based on scientific fact, personal experience and the opinion of my peers. I am pro-animal welfare and as I have already said my opinion is constantly open to change. However, in all my time I have never came across any solid scientific basis for which to support this form of hunting.

The only person who has ever gave a good argument is an anthropology friend of mine who believes that the cultural rights of certain rural english communties outweighs the welfare rights of the fox.
 

endymion

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Is politics a Bachelor of Arts? Always thought it was a Bsc.

I don't think sentiment has any place in politics and I don't think it has any place in deciding the welfare laws of wildlife either.

I hate politics anyway, it's full of w*nkers. Politicians are a waste of space and tax payers money.

Anyway will have to do one, Nobodywhateverhernameis might have finished her diss but my mine is still a work in progress....... :( :(
 

a1b2c3

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yes, your right, how about we get plasterers and builders to run the country.... maybe polish ones would be a good idea, theres lots of those going spare at the minute.....
 

endymion

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Not true. There is tonnes. The problem is in the way studies are funded.

Scientist are generally skint so need an organisation to fund their work which means that hunting studies are either gonna be funded by animal welfare groups or pro groups such as IFAW, the C.A ect. Subsequently the finished report will always be seen as biased one way or the other.

Independant work is understandably hard to come by.
 

Ereiam_jh

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NKT have you read Rural Rites - Hunting & The Politics of Prejudice it's got some exellant stuff on the mis use of scentific research during the debate.
 

Ereiam_jh

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Perhaps you should check a reliable source on wounding rates (i.e not the middleway lobby group) from shooting, they are not high enough to warrant a preference of hunting with hounds on welfare grounds.

What like Professor Harris?

"There simply aren't any wounded foxes from shooting in the countryside as far as I'm concerned."

Prof. Stephen Harris

(Scientist commissioned by the Campaign for the Protection of the Hunted Animal)

Shooting Times - 12th June 2003
 

a1b2c3

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yeah i have got a copy, its interesting reading. did you read the bit about the director general of the RSPCA saying you cant prove that animals feel pain??? WTF is the RSPCA in place for then? stupid woman.
 
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