Little Monster just refuses to carry weight

Micronised linseed

Full fat soya flakes

D&h barley rings (barley and linseed in these) ... I found a big difference with them

Defo worm for tapes just in case
 
Wouldn't bother too much with changing feeds - if you are already giving him 200ml oil a day then faffing about with alfa oil instead of alfa A and fibrebeet instead of sugar beet is going to make bog all difference - just a few hundred grammes of haylage! Even conditioning feeds only have a few more MJ energy per kilo and a horse will be eating around 80-90MJ a day (eg HiFi Good Doer=7MJ/kg, AlfaA Oil=12.5MJ/kg)

Could he be stressed? One of ours looked like a hat rack for a while despite not behaving as if he was stressed and eating a similar diet to yours. How is his coat? - again the stress made a huge difference to coat quality.

Is the ad-lib haylage lots and lots (10kg +) or does he just not enjoy it very much?

Definitely get vet out to give him a good once-over - and best of luck!
 
Wagtail said:
Are you talking sall bales or big bales? Because if it's small bales then that is only half of what he needs! There would be your answer. Do you weight his hay and haylage? If so, how much does it weigh?

How old is he? Could he have Cushings?

Lastly, he has the most odd conformation up front that I have ever seen. His front legs seem to be around 6 inches in front of where they should be. Maybe it's how he is standing, but if not, this will be putting a huge amount of stress and strain on him and could contribute to him being a poor doer.

Sorry, just seen that he is only 7, so scrub the Cushings suggestion.
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You my dear deserve a British Comedy Award, on the conformation front making him this skinny! Gawd i love these forums
 
Zargon_91 said:
I am happy with the content of his diet, he is not fed too much cereal, and equally I cant change it to anything roughage based because he simply will not get the energetic requirements from it as well as sticking to his appetite. I might try increasing it gradually though although he is getting a full vitamin and mineral balancer.



Just to add ref. ulcers etc. He has lived out, not in work and not being fed/rugged/stabled etc until i bought him so it is unlikely he has ulcers as he has actually out some condition on with me, just not enough. I have found though that under saddle he has a tendency to get hyped up very quickly and if his adrenaline rises he stays wired for some time... hence the response comp feed (he needs the high energy and the cereals are actually processed in a better form than a cereal based conditioning feed) im thinking he might have a very high metabolism still?
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Some horses react badly to high cereal content feeds. I would certainly change him onto a forage/fibre based diet, horses digestive systems have evolved to get energy from this, rather than from cereals.
I must admit that I thought you were asking for alternative feed suggestions.
 
We have a 4 YO here with ulcers who had done nothing. He cribbed immediately upon arriving. Previous caretaker said, oh he never did that here. Bull puckey. So I then have to tell owner immediately. I personally don't think this horse was treated badly at former place, but what I do know is he internalizes everything. Big ISH that is quiet and good natured yet thinks about everything. It's the way he's made. Great appetite and get overly excited about work, yet you could tell he just wasn't doing. For 2 months I had to feed this horse more than any other and he still wasn't doing. Had good grazing and adlib hay at night. Will eat you out of the barn with hay. Still ribby. Was wormed correctly, in light work as he's only just started. What I consider light work. Told owner I thought his stomach was at him. Didn't want to know. Sure how could he have ulcers? About a month ago he has a slight gas colic. Finally vet recommended a course of gastro gard. He is now fed less, lost the ribs, and is going from strength to strength. He will stay on a buffer.

Thing is I don't think it's right to offer feed advice when I don't think feed is your issue. Ulcers might be your issue, they may not. But to rule them out completely because you don't think he could have them isn't fair. Look at your horse. Something else is going on beyond what you feed. Think outside the box and get some tests done.

Terri
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
We have a 4 YO here with ulcers who had done nothing. He cribbed immediately upon arriving. Previous caretaker said, oh he never did that here. Bull puckey. So I then have to tell owner immediately. I personally don't think this horse was treated badly at former place, but what I do know is he internalizes everything. Big ISH that is quiet and good natured yet thinks about everything. It's the way he's made. Great appetite and get overly excited about work, yet you could tell he just wasn't doing. For 2 months I had to feed this horse more than any other and he still wasn't doing. Had good grazing and adlib hay at night. Will eat you out of the barn with hay. Still ribby. Was wormed correctly, in light work as he's only just started. What I consider light work. Told owner I thought his stomach was at him. Didn't want to know. Sure how could he have ulcers? About a month ago he has a slight gas colic. Finally vet recommended a course of gastro gard. He is now fed less, lost the ribs, and is going from strength to strength. He will stay on a buffer.

Thing is I don't think it's right to offer feed advice when I don't think feed is your issue. Ulcers might be your issue, they may not. But to rule them out completely because you don't think he could have them isn't fair. Look at your horse. Something else is going on beyond what you feed. Think outside the box and get some tests done.

Terri
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Oooh fab post Terri :)

The late Henesy had trouble with holding his weight. Everything was checked, he was wormed/worm tested, diet wise he was eating a great deal, his coat looked good and he was up to date with the dentist.
He had plenty of energy and seemed happy in himself, but I just knew something wasn't right. So the vet came out, took bloods and referred me to Bell Equine for a scope.
The scope showed that he had evidence of previous ulcers, but nothing current. They took fluids from his airway and it turned out that he had a mild chest infection (more prone to it as he was a tie back horse). He had a dose of anti-b's and sure enough the weight came back on. He hadn't been coughing so no idea that his chest was compromised. If you know your horse well enough - then you usually just "know" when things aren't right. I have the same instinct with my children.
It is always worth a vet visit.
Good luck
 
Sorry as I have not read every post on the thread but have you had any blood tests done by the Vet for an underlying cause, perhaps anaemia or a metabolic syndrome. There used to be a product called Weight ON that might still be available. I would also rug him up, within moderation, so that no calories at all were burnt keeping him warm. Hope you get it sorted as it must be quite distressing for you.
 
Re: worms - the fact that he came from an overstocked breeder might raise some alarms even if they had a regular worming programme.

My friends homebred 3 yr old that had been on a regular vet prescribed worming programme from birth and kept on well-maintained, poo-picked and low-intensity grazed land had a very high egg-count when my friend had a worm count done. This took additional wroming over a period before the egg-count reduced. If she hadn't decided to change to a testing based programme she would never have known. Whereas the other mature gelding in the same field had a low-egg count so individuals be very different. I also had another friend whose mare died from colic and turned out she had bad tapeworm - again she had been regularly wormed but was in a higher-risk group as was grazed in a large herd in a breeding situation.

I just think it is worth paying some attention to this even if you think you have done everything correctly.
 
Zargon_91 said:
ive said about history etc.
Slices are from the large bales in each account, probibly totalling around 25kg
He is 15.2
He has been on this diet since september, he was on half amounts over the summer, and bluechip dynamic instead of the keep me sound
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Are you saying the bales are 25kg (which in my book are small bales) or that his forage intake is 25kg?!

Has he put on weight at all since you changed his diet in September? As presumably if the first photo you posted is from about 4 weeks ago, it wouldn't be very long after he started on this new feed regime so may not be a true indication of his current condition.

The reason I was asking about quantities of forage and what size he is, was to try and work out whether he is lacking condition because he is not eating enough, or whether it is because there is something wrong that is preventing him from making the most of his feed - worms, old worm damage, ulcers etc.

If he has not been wormed for tapeworm and/or encysted redworm then that is definitely something to be done, perhaps with advice from your vet as regards timing of the wormers.
 
sussexbythesea said:
Re: worms - the fact that he came from an overstocked breeder might raise some alarms even if they had a regular worming programme.

My friends homebred 3 yr old that had been on a regular vet prescribed worming programme from birth and kept on well-maintained, poo-picked and low-intensity grazed land had a very high egg-count when my friend had a worm count done. This took additional wroming over a period before the egg-count reduced. If she hadn't decided to change to a testing based programme she would never have known. Whereas the other mature gelding in the same field had a low-egg count so individuals be very different. I also had another friend whose mare died from colic and turned out she had bad tapeworm - again she had been regularly wormed but was in a higher-risk group as was grazed in a large herd in a breeding situation.

I just think it is worth paying some attention to this even if you think you have done everything correctly.
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This is what im the most concerned about, im going to be talking to a nutritionist, then calling the vet and they can decide if he needs extra worming/scoping etc
 
TGM said:
Are you saying the bales are 25kg (which in my book are small bales) or that his forage intake is 25kg?!

Has he put on weight at all since you changed his diet in September? As presumably if the first photo you posted is from about 4 weeks ago, it wouldn't be very long after he started on this new feed regime so may not be a true indication of his current condition.

The reason I was asking about quantities of forage and what size he is, was to try and work out whether he is lacking condition because he is not eating enough, or whether it is because there is something wrong that is preventing him from making the most of his feed - worms, old worm damage, ulcers etc.

If he has not been wormed for tapeworm and/or encysted redworm then that is definitely something to be done, perhaps with advice from your vet as regards timing of the wormers.
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No bales are large heston bales!! He is easily eating 25kg hay/haylage a day (he has a choice of both)
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
We have a 4 YO here with ulcers who had done nothing. He cribbed immediately upon arriving. Previous caretaker said, oh he never did that here. Bull puckey. So I then have to tell owner immediately. I personally don't think this horse was treated badly at former place, but what I do know is he internalizes everything. Big ISH that is quiet and good natured yet thinks about everything. It's the way he's made. Great appetite and get overly excited about work, yet you could tell he just wasn't doing. For 2 months I had to feed this horse more than any other and he still wasn't doing. Had good grazing and adlib hay at night. Will eat you out of the barn with hay. Still ribby. Was wormed correctly, in light work as he's only just started. What I consider light work. Told owner I thought his stomach was at him. Didn't want to know. Sure how could he have ulcers? About a month ago he has a slight gas colic. Finally vet recommended a course of gastro gard. He is now fed less, lost the ribs, and is going from strength to strength. He will stay on a buffer.

Thing is I don't think it's right to offer feed advice when I don't think feed is your issue. Ulcers might be your issue, they may not. But to rule them out completely because you don't think he could have them isn't fair. Look at your horse. Something else is going on beyond what you feed. Think outside the box and get some tests done.

Terri
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Thankyou, the vet is going to be coming out but this is more constructive than just saying im doing everything wrong, he has ulcers, worms, etc
 
Zargon_91 said:
No bales are large heston bales!! He is easily eating 25kg hay/haylage a day (he has a choice of both)
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Wow - that is a lot. Unless he is seriously huge then I would strongly suspect there is something wrong for him not to be putting on weight on that diet. Hopefully it is something relatively simple to deal with, such as a tapeworm infestation.
 
TGM said:
Wow - that is a lot. Unless he is seriously huge then I would strongly suspect there is something wrong for him not to be putting on weight on that diet. Hopefully it is something relatively simple to deal with, such as a tapeworm infestation.
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Thats what im hoping for, as backwards at that sounds, I lost a horse in June and i cant deal with loosing another one :(
I was sorta wondering if im being over protective because some people on the yard cant see he is thin, but people are always nicer to youre face.
Anyway, his workload is being cut in the meantime and a talk with a nutritionist and a vet visit is on the cards...
 
I had a horse who was very difficult to put weight on and keep on.

I tried all kinds...had best success with spillers slow release cubes, speedibeet and alfa a oil.PLus ad-lib hay.

He was wormed regulaly...had plenty of turnout but was easily worried. he was kept at that point on a livery yard with 20+ other horses....

When I moved him to my own yard, very quiet, just my 3.....he absolutely bloomed and became quite a chunker.

I personally believe his environment didn't suit him.......
 
Careful of overfeeding. Fill stomach with hard feed and they won't eat a decent amount of forage.

Had this problem with some liveries last year on large amount of hard feed.

Simply stripped it back to basics. Sugarbeet and alfa a daily (oil for first few days) and weight shot back on through haylage and hay. Only did about a scoop in total as opposed to almost a trug of conditioning feed which it previously was.
 
TBH I would be feeding the list of feed - not supplements at each feed. The amounts are not much,

Not being one to feed processed feed I can only suggest that you could feed, Extruded Barley, Corn oil along with the chaff and sugarbeet.

Haylage ad lib is also ideal to assist in increasing weight.

Years ago I had a horse that was hell to get weight on - it turned out that he was out in the neck and the constant lowgrade pain ate the weight away. When his neck was finally sorted he was the easiest horse to keep weight on.
 
Zargon_91 said:
My yard superviser has advised me to use the panacur 5 day?
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she is wrong I am afraid, I have just wormed for TW myself and double checked with someone who is trained, its definate it does not cover TW.

Also you can quite easily meet his energy requirements by feeding fibre and adding something for energy. His output vs input is clearly not tallying up at the moment.

I am sure someone has asked but when were his teeth done? Worm him with something for tapeworm (not pancur) and do please have a look at his feed, perhaps split into 3 smaller feeds so that he can digest it easier, in addition there is nothing wrong with feeding straights for an energy basis and it cuts out all the other useless stuff that they put in that your horse really does not need. Someone else mentioned copra meal, I second it, its really good for energy and condition. You do need to address diet as it is obviously not quite working for your boy, and I would look at lowering the work level a tad whilst you identify what is wrong and make changes.
 
Zargon_91 said:
No bales are large heston bales!! He is easily eating 25kg hay/haylage a day (he has a choice of both)
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I would suggest that you actually weigh it so you know what he is getting. Also remember that haylage weighs more due to the water content so he will need a higher weight. Mine gets through this kind of quantity on box rest as she's a poor doer.

The big thing for mine is stress, she will drop weight whatever you pump in if she is stressed and on the sort of routine you have for yours mine would look like a hatrack. Can you try him on a more regular routine where he gets turned out everyday?

When we change the routine for mine from summer to winter she always drops weight, if we then messed about keeping her in some days and out others I could imagine she would never gain weight.

I would add the magnesium back in too as this can help with stress.
 
Foxhunter, I've not heard that mentioned since I was a kid (the 80's) & I think I can guess what you are going to say, even though I don't know (or can't remember) the logic behind it. Nor the solution.
 
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