Liveries and Hay - opinion please?

[bhpride]

Amymay - Not much or shall I say I waste loads to wind everyone up

? nah I won't

I have a starving greedy cob who always wants more, in the morning there is nothing left. In all fairness the grazing is mud and she comes in 9pm until 8am so she is hungry by then. Her bed is set back so thankfully nothing gets mixed with her straw. If there is ever any remains they are stuffed in a haynet for next time she's in. But more often than not it's all gone by the morning

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[Hippona]

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Our YO grows and bales their own hay.....its not included in livery, but we buy what we want at discounted rates.....we order during the week and she puts it in our feed rooms every friday. We can get more through the week if we run out.

I prefer to do it this way....I can feed what/when I want without feeling like I am taking the piss.....I give massive haynets and put whats left out for them the next morning this time of year.

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how much would you say you put in your haynets !!

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Well...if they are in during the day, I put in enough to last until I get down at tea-time...prob about 4/5 slices....then same again overnight.....so pretty much what you are giving really. I prob do put too much in, I don't like the idea of them running out if I'm delayed.....thats why I like our way of doing it, cos I can do that without YO thinking I'm using too much of the 'inclusive' hay.....

I think what you supply sounds pretty generous TBH...If I was your livery, knowing my horse had hay in his net, and his night net was made up....then I see no point in putting an extra pile on the floor.

 

[StaceyTanglewood]

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Stacey are these DIY liveries or full/part??

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Full liveries !! xx

 

[AmyMay]

I automatically assume everyone is on DIY like me. So of course your hay is all in - sorry.

Ignore me, I'm stupid!

 

[CBAnglo]

Maybe you should just state that each horse is to have half a bale (4 sections) a day? Any more will be charged extra. If they are to be kept in they will have 6-8 sections depending on size of horse? You could of course then lock your hay barn if she didnt respect the rule.

Although, I was on a yard like that and it was awful - my horses were only getting 3 small sections a day and they were starving. I actually bought hay from the feed shop for them and they were on part livery (everything except grooming and exercise)! I left pretty quickly.

I dont think 1 section from 12.30 to dinner is enough personally, but I would have put the hay in the net not just chucked it on the floor if the horse didnt eat from the floor. You didnt say how big the horse is, but a largeish horse would definitely go through a bale a day if it were kept in.

 

[Erehwemos]

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Stacey are these DIY liveries or full/part??

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Full liveries !! xx

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That changes things a bit then! In which case, these people have entrusted the day to day care of their horse to you - they should not look to undermine you, which is what this seems like to me!

 

[Blue-bear]

nope i really dont either, and not only do they give more hay but recently they have been dumping perfectly good hay out of haynets which have taken me time to fill up! just so they can fill them up again,could understand if it was days old but sometimes its not even hours old!

 

[sarah23]

I think i understand what you are saying, why throw in more hay when the horse already has hay, is that right.

As somebody already said why not suggest to your liveries if they feel the need to give their horses more hay it must go in hay nets, that why it won't get wasted in their beds and if they still have loads left when you do their last hay nets you can adjust accordingly.

 

[StaceyTanglewood]

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Maybe you should just state that each horse is to have half a bale (4 sections) a day? Any more will be charged extra. If they are to be kept in they will have 6-8 sections depending on size of horse? You could of course then lock your hay barn if she didnt respect the rule.

Although, I was on a yard like that and it was awful - my horses were only getting 3 small sections a day and they were starving. I actually bought hay from the feed shop for them and they were on part livery (everything except grooming and exercise)! I left pretty quickly.

I dont think 1 section from 12.30 to dinner is enough personally, but I would have put the hay in the net not just chucked it on the floor if the horse didnt eat from the floor. You didnt say how big the horse is, but a largeish horse would definitely go through a bale a day if it were kept in.

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but if i lock the hay barn this isnt fair on any of the rest of the liveries is it ???

our bales are all the same but they get a good 4 sections and if the sections are small they will have 5 !!

what i meant was the horse had already had 4 sections - so topping the haynet back up at 2.30 ish when it was half full with an extra section would of made sense - knowing that at 5pm they would be getting another haynet with 4 sections in???

I could also have understood if the horse had nothing and was eating his bed to fill the haynet back up

 

[oofadoofa]

I think you just have to accept that some people are just strange

and whatever you tell/ask them to do, they will still take the pee or think that their horse needs more to eat than it actually does.

 

[StaceyTanglewood]

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Stacey are these DIY liveries or full/part??

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Full liveries !! xx

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That changes things a bit then! In which case, these people have entrusted the day to day care of their horse to you - they should not look to undermine you, which is what this seems like to me!

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thanks - they also tried to say the horse had been losing weight to make out why they had done this - when i asked how they knew this they said oh because he looks underweight !!! very strange as i have been getting my groom to weigh all the horses over the last 2 months because the weather has been so cold to make sure they are getting enough and this certain horse has put on weight !!! haha

 

[StaceyTanglewood]

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I think you just have to accept that some people are just strange

and whatever you tell/ask them to do, they will still take the pee or think that their horse needs more to eat than it actually does.

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yea i guess so !!!!

 

[CBAnglo]

I think it depends on whether this woman always does this, or is this just a one time thing, and also if the horse gunuinely needs the hay or is it just pure waste because she doesnt have to pay for the hay separately.

If she always does this, then say you are charging her more as the allocation is 4 sections a day (more if kept in/box rest etc). If she is taking an extra 2 sections a day, say it is an extra bale a week and charge accordingly.

Does she feed a lot of hard feed as well, or is the horse only really being given hay? If no feed/mostly hay then I wouldnt charge extra. If normal hard feed/wasting hay then I would charge extra.

 

[sarah23]

If it's just this one person taking the p### i would have a little word with them and state how much hay you are happy for them to have in your costs and any thing over this they will have to pay extra for. It may just make them think next time they want to waste hay.

 

[Fantasy_World]

To the OP I can understand where you are coming from in terms of wastage as I hate to see wastage of any kind, especially if that wastage is coming out of someone else's pocket than your own. By that I mean seeing other people waste hay, bedding and feed that they don't have to pay any extra for.
I have a possible suggestion which may or may not be feasible. You say you have 2000 bales of hay, which I assume the liveries have access to. Could you not erect a small shed, or have a spare place in which to store a smaller amount of hay for everyone to access and ban access to the main storage area?
This would possibly stop wastage. If you had the space you could possibly assign an area to each liveries hay, even if you do the horses for the people. That way each livery would know exactly how much hay they were being allowed for free and how much would be extra. If you included so much for free with the livery and then charged x amount for any used above and over that amount it should stop wastage if people are made to pay for it.
Obviously having a system like that is going to mean more time and effort and will certainly require storage space. If you don't have the time or the storage then obviously you cannot do it.
Another possibility would be to have the nets made up weekly for each horse if you could, if not daily ( don't know how you do it now so just guessing). With these nets which would be grouped together for each horse would be I don't know say half a bale of hay extra for each livery to use if they need it. They would not be allowed access to the main barn area. Once that half bale had been used you could allow the same again for each livery, keeping a note on who had what and when. This would help towards wastage and would also help you to keep an eye on what was being used. Obviously even having a system like that would still require trust in your liveries to not take hay from each other.
Besides that I really don't know what else to suggest. But I really think you need to stop access to the main storage area and just provide a couple of bales for people to take hay from rather than letting them have access to the lot. You would not know any bales were missing at all from that number of bales kept in one area as it is a lot to keep track of.

 

[StaceyTanglewood]

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I think it depends on whether this woman always does this, or is this just a one time thing, and also if the horse gunuinely needs the hay or is it just pure waste because she doesnt have to pay for the hay separately.

If she always does this, then say you are charging her more as the allocation is 4 sections a day (more if kept in/box rest etc). If she is taking an extra 2 sections a day, say it is an extra bale a week and charge accordingly.

Does she feed a lot of hard feed as well, or is the horse only really being given hay? If no feed/mostly hay then I wouldnt charge extra. If normal hard feed/wasting hay then I would charge extra.

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horse still has a full bucket of feed - alfa A performance Mix, nuts and sugar beat - all a scoop !!

Hasnt been ridden for atleast 4 weeks and is only ridden maybe 3 times a week all the other times !!!

the horse isnt a pig and wont eat more than he wants which is fine but I just dont see why they gave it 4 sections at 2.30pm - why not give him his night net that is made up ??

 

[StaceyTanglewood]

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If it's just this one person taking the p### i would have a little word with them and state how much hay you are happy for them to have in your costs and any thing over this they will have to pay extra for. It may just make them think next time they want to waste hay.

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Oh i did have words on Sunday dont you worry about that !!!

Its a bit like the girl that asked for her horse to be bought in at 1pm every day and have lunch time feed and hay - she changed her mind when i said its an extra £10 a week !!!

 

[CBAnglo]

Sounds like pure waste then - I would be charging her for an extra 1 or 2 bales a week. Will soon stop her.

I think you are being more than fair with your feed and hay allocation - most places would have charged for feeding performance mix and nuts (I have been on livery for numerous years and have seen all sorts of weird and wacky calculations of what is included in livery!)

Another thought is to tell liveries to just put another haynet in rather than taking sections out (would keep the yard neater rather than traipsing through with a section in your arms). Then you can just top up any haynets in the evening if the horse has been in after being ridden etc. Means there is no need for anyone to touch any of the baled hay, and you will know if it has been messed about with.

 

[Shilasdair]

I can't see the big problem, personally.
When you come back from wherever you've been, just take whatever is left of the four sections, and pop it in a haynet to make up the horse's normal rations.
Life's too short to worry about things with easy solutions...
S

 

[Stoxx]

Now see I wouldn't put Osc's night net in at 2.30. That is still lunchtime really, but as I've said before I would make a net up myself.
Also, full livery (or part to some as it doesn't include exercise) to me should include whatever routine works best for your horse. Therefore my horse does come in at 1pm and get a feed and hay with no extra charge. But then as we have discussed before I do pay more than you charge so maybe that is why.

 

[catherinep]

This is fascinating as everyone seems to have strong opinions!!
In the interests of peace and harmony on the yard, why not just ask the lady concerned to use haynets provided if offering extra hay, so that you can monitor it and reduces wasteage etc. It also sounds as tho she is unhappy as she beleives that the horse has lost weight, whereas you can prove that he has not/or has gained weight. Maybe she means that he has lost top line/condition due to lack of work in this dreadful weather?

I think this sounds like you need to have a chat and a cup of coffee with the owner before you get (even more!)resentful and she gets frustrated as she is paying for full livery and is having to do stuff herself? (in her eyes at least)

As your system works well with others, this sounds like a communications issue, not a haynet problem!!

Good luck!

 

[StaceyTanglewood]

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I can't see the big problem, personally.
When you come back from wherever you've been, just take whatever is left of the four sections, and pop it in a haynet to make up the horse's normal rations.
Life's too short to worry about things with easy solutions...
S

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oh yea ive really got time to stand there stuffing haynets when its spread round a 16x12 stable havent i !!!

 

[StaceyTanglewood]

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Now see I wouldn't put Osc's night net in at 2.30. That is still lunchtime really, but as I've said before I would make a net up myself.
Also, full livery (or part to some as it doesn't include exercise) to me should include whatever routine works best for your horse. Therefore my horse does come in at 1pm and get a feed and hay with no extra charge. But then as we have discussed before I do pay more than you charge so maybe that is why.

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yes if people were paying me what you pay they would be more than welcome to bring there horses in at 1pm without extra charge !!!

but its not all the time so i just said when he comes in it will be extra (she is a bad payer to) so asked for the money up front !!

 

[tabithakat64]

I would just ask her to use a net in future then you can give more hay at night if needed but not waste any.
If feeding ad-lib hay I would expect a small amount to be left over (less than half a section) and if this was included in my livery I would expect to be able to feed my horse as much as it could eat if I felt the horse needed it.
If you want to provide a set amount of hay only amend your liveries contracts to include this.

 

[Stoxx]

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but its not all the time so i just said when he comes in it will be extra (she is a bad payer to) so asked for the money up front !!

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fair point!!

 

[StaceyTanglewood]

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This is fascinating as everyone seems to have strong opinions!!
In the interests of peace and harmony on the yard, why not just ask the lady concerned to use haynets provided if offering extra hay, so that you can monitor it and reduces wasteage etc. It also sounds as tho she is unhappy as she beleives that the horse has lost weight, whereas you can prove that he has not/or has gained weight. Maybe she means that he has lost top line/condition due to lack of work in this dreadful weather?

I think this sounds like you need to have a chat and a cup of coffee with the owner before you get (even more!)resentful and she gets frustrated as she is paying for full livery and is having to do stuff herself? (in her eyes at least)

As your system works well with others, this sounds like a communications issue, not a haynet problem!!

Good luck!

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ha ha yes we have mentioned the top line and condition thing but of course she knows best and he hasnt lost any muscle at all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this is the person that will come and re-do beds when already done (she has OCD) so to be honest im sure doesnt think about having to do it herself - its more like she does it because she wants to !!! they would be better on there own yard where they can do what they like i think !! !

 

[Ranyhyn]

Hay is in with my livery.

We take as much as we want, but I am never silly and only feed what my horse eats during the night as I hate wasteful people.

It sounds like you are providing a livery service rather than DIY, which may be the difference.

TBH I wouldn't care so long as my horse gets the hay he requires.

 

[Doublethyme]

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I can't see the big problem, personally.
When you come back from wherever you've been, just take whatever is left of the four sections, and pop it in a haynet to make up the horse's normal rations.
Life's too short to worry about things with easy solutions

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I was thinking that too, surely that's the best way all round. I can see the point that you don't want to waste money and hay, but you will always get some horses surely on a full livery yard that are higher maintenance than others, and it must even out across the board - ie you must have some horses that need less hay/feed, but you charge the same as the ones that cost more? Don't know many full livery yard owners that will give a rebate each week if your horse hasn't eaten XYZ of hay, so if it doesn't work that way round, why should it work the other way, ie why should YO's expect to charge more for a heartier appetite!

If I was on full livery I would absolutely expect to be able to give my horse extra whenever I deemed appropriate and she eats nearly double amount of haylage that my friends' horses eat, yet she is smaller than some of them, but she drops weight in the winter without it - I'm on DIY and pay for what I use so it doesn't matter though.

A compromise maybe is to make up haynets and make sure your liveries know that if the horses need extra they should put in one of the haynets, not just take multiple sections of hay, at least then it won't get wasted in the bed and you can top up or not at night on your checks.

 

[Tia]

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I just dont see why they gave it 4 sections at 2.30pm - why not give him his night net that is made up ??

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I expect she didn't because the night net is for night time presumably? Therefore she didn't want to mess up your evening haying by providing you with more work?

If the horse had 2 sections of hay at 12.30pm then I wouldn't have expected it to have very much left by 2.30pm, and certainly not enough to last it till 5.30pm for it's evening net.

I am a livery yard owner. No hay is ever restricted on my yard; never has been, never will be. Wastage is factored into my costings so I couldn't care less whether people give their horses extra hay, not that they ever need to as every horse has ad-lib (REAL ad-lib) hay in front of them constantly. I feed enormous 6x5 1,800lb bales and I go through between 12 and 15 per week here. We were running at almost 50% wastage until I recently enlarged the feeders from 6ft rounds to 8ft rounds and we are now running at around only 15% wastage, so much better.

I only feed small squares to horses who live in, which is really only occasionally, most horses live out 24/7 here, however even in my huge hay barn with thousands and thousands of small squares (we are hay producers/merchants), I know immediately if anyone has used any (photographic memory or something, Lol!), not that it makes any difference as I couldn't care less if they take some, it's really not of importance to me. If it is someone off the farm then they generally call me later to let me know they have collected some bales of hay, or they will tell me the next time they come to collect more.

I'm actually surprised at how little hay some people must feed their horses, going by some of the responses on this thread. Standard to me is at least 1 bale of hay per day per horse.

Anyhow, that's how I run my yard; anyone is free to take whatever they wish, I don't care; you do care and it obviously bothers you so having a friendly chat with them sounds like the order of the day; can't see what would be gained by being dictatorial with them.

 

[StaceyTanglewood]

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I can't see the big problem, personally.
When you come back from wherever you've been, just take whatever is left of the four sections, and pop it in a haynet to make up the horse's normal rations.
Life's too short to worry about things with easy solutions

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I was thinking that too, surely that's the best way all round. I can see the point that you don't want to waste money and hay, but you will always get some horses surely on a full livery yard that are higher maintenance than others, and it must even out across the board - ie you must have some horses that need less hay/feed, but you charge the same as the ones that cost more? Don't know many full livery yard owners that will give a rebate each week if your horse hasn't eaten XYZ of hay, so if it doesn't work that way round, why should it work the other way, ie why should YO's expect to charge more for a heartier appetite!

If I was on full livery I would absolutely expect to be able to give my horse extra whenever I deemed appropriate and she eats nearly double amount of haylage that my friends' horses eat, yet she is smaller than some of them, but she drops weight in the winter without it - I'm on DIY and pay for what I use so it doesn't matter though.

A compromise maybe is to make up haynets and make sure your liveries know that if the horses need extra they should put in one of the haynets, not just take multiple sections of hay, at least then it won't get wasted in the bed and you can top up or not at night on your checks.

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trust me i have ignored it but sunday it just got to me as the horse had loads of hay and wasnt eating it - so why give it more "!

the haynets were also made up - I just really dont get people sometimes x