ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Yes , which is why I said cost price, which leaves the owner with exactly the same profit as if the hay and bedding was being used.
Livery dilemma
- Thread starter PC Steele
- Start date
Yes , which is why I said cost price, which leaves the owner with exactly the same profit as if the hay and bedding was being used.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I agree .
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Generally in all ‘service based’ industries, the customers pays for services they require, not for services that are on offer but not required by that particular customer.
So the livery industry should, in all fairness, operate in the same manner, yet this thread and others often show, its very much pot luck and differs hugely between yards.
It would seem fair for a yard to offer just grazing livery, grazing and stable livery, graz./stable/bedding, graz./stab/bedding and hay. Including full package of actual horse care turn out, feed etc.
These options allow owners to have the freedom of which bedding and forage to give their horse, should the supply the yard offers, for whatever reason, not be suitable.
To have 1 package of ‘pay for everything even if youre not using it’ seems very unfair on all liveries in such a set-up, and unwillingness of yard to respect different horse/owners needs.
Worth asking if you can pay for just the grazing youre using and not all the expensive stuff youre not using OP. If not, i’d seriously move.
So the livery industry should, in all fairness, operate in the same manner, yet this thread and others often show, its very much pot luck and differs hugely between yards.
It would seem fair for a yard to offer just grazing livery, grazing and stable livery, graz./stable/bedding, graz./stab/bedding and hay. Including full package of actual horse care turn out, feed etc.
These options allow owners to have the freedom of which bedding and forage to give their horse, should the supply the yard offers, for whatever reason, not be suitable.
To have 1 package of ‘pay for everything even if youre not using it’ seems very unfair on all liveries in such a set-up, and unwillingness of yard to respect different horse/owners needs.
Worth asking if you can pay for just the grazing youre using and not all the expensive stuff youre not using OP. If not, i’d seriously move.
Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
But you know what you are buying when you take the place on the yard. It's like being on a full DIY yard then expecting services. I do not know a single yard that does grass livery in my area. It's 5 day or 7 day full livery regardless of of ridden in schools or only hacked. Do tbe choice is, you travel further or take what is offered. But feeling resentful only ends in tears as everything will be picked apart. .y yard makes their own hay and straw, shavings are extra. It is factored in to the package that is offered, so taking off money for lack of hay and straw used will ultimately reduce profit so stable fees will need to go up or yard ends up subsidising a part of there income.
conniegirl
Well-Known Member
Not really, if i go to a hotel i am highly unlikely to ever use the hotel gym whose usage is normally included in the price of the room, should i ask for a discount?
I can guarantee you won’t get one.
PinkvSantaboots
Well-Known Member
This is the thing with part livery yards the yo probably won't want to just rent you a stable and field it's not in there financial interest, no harm in asking if you could have a bit of a reduction but my guess it will be no, I think in your situation I would find a proper retirement place for him or you just could find grazing but then it will probably be like a diy situation which I appreciate you may not want to do.
PinkvSantaboots
Well-Known Member
The thing is most yards that offer full or part livery probably don't want grass liveries there is no money in it so they often won't accommodate such at a discounted rate. So yes I agree it's time to move it's a waste of money paying for hay and bedding your not even using.
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
While this is sort of true, is it not also true that in "service based" industries, you generally go to an establishment that provides the services you want and don't expect them to change their set up or charges just for you? Someone else gave an example of going to a hotel with a gym - you don't expect a discount just because you didn't use the gym, and if you want somewhere cheaper, you could always stay at a hotel without a gym. Another example would be a hotel that included breakfast in the price - you wouldn't get a discount just because you didn't eat the breakfast. Equally, I wouldn't go to a waiter only restaurant and expect them also to have a buffet bar at a cheaper price, or a fancy hotel and expect them to have hostel style dorm rooms. We don't expect hotels or restaurants to offer the whole range of possible options, so why on earth should a livery yard be expected to do so?
The OP is, from our understanding, on a yard that offers part (and full?) livery, where the livery package includes bedding and hay. The fact that the OP is turning out 24/7 does not seem to be the norm (they are also extremely lucky to be on a livery yard where that is possible in the winter). Whilst the OP certainly could ask for a reduction in price, I don't think they should in any way expect this to be granted because it is simply not one of the livery packages offered by this yard. I'm not sure why there is anything unfair about the way this livery yard is run - they are presumably completely upfront about the services they offer, their costs and exactly what is included when people inquire. And if you want/ need the freedom over your forage/ bedding etc, then you would know it is not the yard for you from the outset. The only way the OP's situation could possibly be unfair is if the yard also has DIY and grass liveries who don't pay services/ bedding/ hay and she is not being allowed to switch to the same package.
PC Steele
Well-Known Member
Yes they do grass livery
PC Steele
Well-Known Member
Hmmmm I don’t think you are suggesting that I have/want to just Chuck mine out in a field and forget about him?? He can’t be on the same routine as he used to be. He is arthritic and needs to be out which thank God he is more than happy doing at the moment. Sorry don’t get your point??
SO1
Well-Known Member
Well that seems straightforward why don't you just ask to go on to grass livery then or is that a DIY option which you can't do as you need services.
PC Steele
Well-Known Member
Thank you so much for your helpful input xxxx
PurBee
Well-Known Member
The difference in the service industry whether they can get away with charging you for services you dont avail of is legal binding contracts.
A hotel, livery yard, house rental, car hire....and livery yards are all contract based. Have you ever availed of these services without signing papers? Within those t&c’s allow the companies to provide a legal binding contract to basically secure their payment for services you may or may not use. Like a gym, or a large boot in a car you hire which you dont end up using.
All other service based industry sectors like mechanics, engineers, labouring, retail etc, there is no contract because it’s actually illegal to charge a person for something they havent bought/or servicenavailable they haven’t availed of. We dont sign a contract at the entry of tesco’s to enable them to charge us for the baking goods on offer, that we haven’t bought.
A mechanic services your car and charges you for wheel bearings he hasn’t changed, just because it’s one of the services on offer, that extra charge is likely to upset a few.
We’re talking about the same issue, but different sides of the same coin....difference being ‘contract’. Once i have a person sign a contract with pages of t&c’s they never read, i’m free to charge whatever i like and will have stipulated that freedom in the contract, the’ve never read.
Livery yards all have widely varying t&c’s...it seems no 2 yards are the same anymore ...and you really hit the nail on the head by stating the crux of the issue - no money can be made from grass livery so it’s not a package offered by most yards. Especially with limited land, i understand that.
Whereas we have other yards who are very much into detailing charges depending on what you use or not, down to charges for changing rug, bringing in, per hay net feed.
That’s why its worth for OP to ask at her yard as her livery set-up has changed, if they would do grass livery, yet the fact that they’ve not changed the monthly charge seems to insinuate that at THAT yard they dont do variable livery packages, so it’s worth considering a move to a yard that does a grass livery package.
A hotel, livery yard, house rental, car hire....and livery yards are all contract based. Have you ever availed of these services without signing papers? Within those t&c’s allow the companies to provide a legal binding contract to basically secure their payment for services you may or may not use. Like a gym, or a large boot in a car you hire which you dont end up using.
All other service based industry sectors like mechanics, engineers, labouring, retail etc, there is no contract because it’s actually illegal to charge a person for something they havent bought/or servicenavailable they haven’t availed of. We dont sign a contract at the entry of tesco’s to enable them to charge us for the baking goods on offer, that we haven’t bought.
A mechanic services your car and charges you for wheel bearings he hasn’t changed, just because it’s one of the services on offer, that extra charge is likely to upset a few.
We’re talking about the same issue, but different sides of the same coin....difference being ‘contract’. Once i have a person sign a contract with pages of t&c’s they never read, i’m free to charge whatever i like and will have stipulated that freedom in the contract, the’ve never read.
Livery yards all have widely varying t&c’s...it seems no 2 yards are the same anymore ...and you really hit the nail on the head by stating the crux of the issue - no money can be made from grass livery so it’s not a package offered by most yards. Especially with limited land, i understand that.
Whereas we have other yards who are very much into detailing charges depending on what you use or not, down to charges for changing rug, bringing in, per hay net feed.
That’s why its worth for OP to ask at her yard as her livery set-up has changed, if they would do grass livery, yet the fact that they’ve not changed the monthly charge seems to insinuate that at THAT yard they dont do variable livery packages, so it’s worth considering a move to a yard that does a grass livery package.
PC Steele
Well-Known Member
Ideally I need assisted grass livery, I am good friends with the yard owner. I work on the yard sometimes and even though I’m paying for livery I do most of it myself. Unfortunately the yard isn’t full, it doesn’t have a waiting list so I know she would lose money. Guess I should move or suck it up. I have thought of working for a reduced livery as I know there is a lack of staff at the moment
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Well this is confusing OP....why are you being charged your old bedding/hay/stable/grass rate if your yard offers just grass livery?
SO1
Well-Known Member
Oh I see they only do part livery or DIY grass livery, they don't do grass livery with services. So although your horses are living out as you need services they are charging the the part livery rate as they don't have standard package of full grass livery.
I am presuming you are not paying £580 for your Shetland as well as the horse? Does the the £580 cover both the Shetland and the horse.
The problem with assisted DIY is that they need to have a staff member to always be available to offer the service but they never know how much services are going to be required so it is really difficult for a lot of yards to put in place. The yard I am on does part livery and assisted DIY and for assisted DIY they have a minimum spend per week on services to enable them to be able to pay the staff.
I am presuming you are not paying £580 for your Shetland as well as the horse? Does the the £580 cover both the Shetland and the horse.
The problem with assisted DIY is that they need to have a staff member to always be available to offer the service but they never know how much services are going to be required so it is really difficult for a lot of yards to put in place. The yard I am on does part livery and assisted DIY and for assisted DIY they have a minimum spend per week on services to enable them to be able to pay the staff.
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SO1
Well-Known Member
Grass livery with services, or full grass livery (unless at a retirement yard) can be hard to find. It just does not bring in enough income to justify having staff available on site all the time in order to provide assistance when it is occasionally needed.
When I was on grass livery we ended up with a favour system if people were away we would help each other out as YO decided she did not want to provide assistance beyond occasionally going down to the field to check everyone was still alive or to put out hay in the winter if needed. I ended up often being the only one going to check the horses every day.
I am now on part livery stabled at a different yard. Obviously costs a lot more but better for me and my pony really especially as I am now working more hours and means I don't need to worry if I am ill or want to go on holiday or out with friends for the evening, need to travel for business etc. Not great for my bank balance but I think pony and I both healthier and happier.
When I was on grass livery we ended up with a favour system if people were away we would help each other out as YO decided she did not want to provide assistance beyond occasionally going down to the field to check everyone was still alive or to put out hay in the winter if needed. I ended up often being the only one going to check the horses every day.
I am now on part livery stabled at a different yard. Obviously costs a lot more but better for me and my pony really especially as I am now working more hours and means I don't need to worry if I am ill or want to go on holiday or out with friends for the evening, need to travel for business etc. Not great for my bank balance but I think pony and I both healthier and happier.
PC Steele
Well-Known Member
Thank you to all those people who have given helpful answers. For the record I am a responsible, caring owner. I have had my retired boy for 20 years. It is on the vet’s advice that he lives out, the yard offers grass livery but on a DIY basis. So I was just asking peoples opinion on wether it would be reasonable of me to ask for grass livery with assistance (a bit cheaper than part livery) I am not expecting to have special treatment etc. I am a good livery I am tidy, not high maintenance etc. Even though I am currently paying part livery I poo pick my fields more than 50 per cent of the time. Obviously I would discuss with YO the availability of a stable if needed. For those of you who have suggested that I am one of those owners who is looking to save money at the expense of her poor old horse YOU ARE WRONG and your comments have upset me. The horse in question is my ex PSG horse who I’ve kept sound and working for 17 yrs. He is now 25, has Cushing’s and arthritis and needs to be out as much as possible unfortunately if he has to be stabled for any serious length of time then that’s when I will probably have to make that horrid decision as he won’t cope (soundness wise) Thank god he is currently thriving in the field! Happy as Larry with his little mate, loads of grass and no mud!!! He will have hay in the field if/when he needs it. He is on 1 1/2 tablets of Prascend a day at £1.05 a tablet, 1 sachet of bute a day, £140 shoeing bill every six weeks, joint supplement. He has the best rugs on. I am trying my best!!! Just wanted to know if it was reasonable to ask for a small reduction in price! There are some really nice people on this site but by god there are some vile people, if you can’t say/suggest anything nice or helpful then please just don’t bother replying xxxx
Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
And if you can't afford to look after them properly, dont have them.
HappyHollyDays
Slave to a house cat, 4 yard cats and 2 ponies
Have you not read OP’s last post? Stop trying to pick a fight when there isn’t one to be had.
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
That is completely different to what I was assuming. In fact, I'm not sure there is even an issue! If the yard offers DIY grass livery and part stabled livery, I'm sure you can come to some sort of arrangement with the YO. After all, if you ask to switch to grass livery but still pay for services, that is surely better than a grass livery not paying for services? Your previous posts didn't suggest this was an option, hence my replies.
Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
Sorry I do not follow the response you do obviously want. If he is your psg horse he deserves a decent retirement or shoot him. He has given you everything and when it suited you were happy to pay. Now he needs you your becomi g a fair weather owner and are getting upperty when called out.
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
Oh do give it a rest. I certainly couldn't afford £580 a month but funnily enough I manage to look after my 27 year old mare perfectly well despite paying a lot less. She also lives out most of the time, and funnily enough she seems very happy with that arrangement too.
Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
If horse was soooooo important over cash the post would never have been made.
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
Do you even think before you post? Sometimes you can be one of the most judgemental, unkind posters on this forum. I can't think how you are interpreting the OP's posts in this was or why on earth you think you have any right to say this to someone who clearly cares about their horse a great deal.
HappyHollyDays
Slave to a house cat, 4 yard cats and 2 ponies
Please refer back to OP’s last post, read it properly and stop being so nasty.
Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
Leam_Carrie
Well-Known Member
I think I’d ask the YO if you can move grass livery, and if she’d consider offering services - either paying part grass livery or in return for you working on other days. If they say no at least you’ll know your options.
Hope you find a solution.
Hope you find a solution.
nikicb
Well-Known Member
Did you read this bit of the post before responding?
" It is on the vet’s advice that he lives out, the yard offers grass livery but on a DIY basis. So I was just asking peoples opinion on wether it would be reasonable of me to ask for grass livery with assistance (a bit cheaper than part livery) I am not expecting to have special treatment etc. "
She is not abandoning him to the field, the vet said he would be better living out.
ETA - that was quoting Gingerwitch's post which wasn't quoted properly, but which is.....
If she cared she would leave horse how he was, he has donehis duty and now she just wants to cut costs and get approval for this. That is what disgusts me
Oh she will give him some hay in a muddy field after years of being stabled when he was in his prime and would have enjoyed it. But it did not suit then did it ? else be would have been on grass all this time. It now when be is no longer useful we want to turf him out 24/7 just as winter approaches and I am deemed as the o e in the wrong.
PC Steele
Well-Known Member
You are something else!! I am happy to pay you stupid witch I was just enquiring if it was reasonable to ask if I could do grass livery with assistance. You know nothing about me!!! If it isn’t possible then I will carry on paying!! If you can’t look after them don’t have them? Really? So all these horse owners who have lost their jobs because of the pandemic and are now struggling shouldn’t of had horses???? Luckily being a police officer my job is secure in fact I have had a lot of overtime due to COVID so I’m not struggling thank you very much. You disgust me