Livery for cribbers??

[RunToEarth]

Apparently the wind sucker is the one that creates most noise, the cribber is more likely to take in air without making noise.

I don't have access to showing you studies- I am at the Royal Ag college, I don't syudy equine but am fortunate in that I have access to a lot of the equine lectures with outside speakers- I usually sit in on ones that interest me as obviously I have a personal interest in equine. I sat in on a talk from vets of Liverpool vetenary unit equine dept, who had undertaken studies in polo ponies, and stud yards, which concluded that younger horses picked up and mirrored the actions of crib biters, wind suckers and motion problems such as box walking and weaving. Although it is usually young horses that pick up on the vices, it causes problems as they often do this misguided and are not cribbing for any actual reason.
I personally couldn't deal with a horse that had a proper vice, it would drive me mad. My coloured chap weaves when he has had his breakfast and wants to go out in the field, which I can generally avoid by getting up early and chucking him in the field. I wouldn't have my horse at a yard where there were cribbers/wind suckers because I wouldn't risk him picking it up, and for that reason YOs are wary.

 

[millitiger]

so there isn't actually any scientific proof that horses copy stereotypical behaviour?

back to the OP, our yard accepts horses with all vices!! we have a weaver, a cribber and a windsucker atm- weirdly none of the other horses have copied at all!

 

[RunToEarth]

Yes, there is, as I have said above studies concluded that cribbing is copied by younger horses, surely you only have to google it to find out for yourself.

 

[mainpower]

So how would one go about scientifically proving horses DON'T copy stereotypical behaviour? I think my youngster picking up the habit (as posted above) has given me enough proof after 35 years of horse ownership!

 

[millitiger]

and i think having stabled my weaver with over 20 different horses including my own weanlings and lots of horses under 4yrs old- not ONE has shown any sign of weaving that they DON'T copy it.

basing scientific proof on one experience doesn't really work.

rosiie, if you are the one claiming there is scientific proof and studies it helps if you can back it up. i could trawl through google but i'm not the one claiming this study exists.

also what do we do if scientific studies conclude different things?
there are a number of studies which have concluded young horses don't copy, now apparently there is one which has come to the opposite conclusion- how do we decide which is right??

 

[HensPens]

[ QUOTE ]
I

Oh I think someone described cribbing as a 'behavioural problem' it's not! Its sterotypical behaviour, I don't think cribbing should be put in the same catagory as a horse that kicks or bites!!

[/ QUOTE ]

One yard I looked at he called it a PERVERSION! (actually Hens was once caught spanking a coblet with a surcingle but that's a different story!)

Mind you this is also the same man that told me tb's when they were first bred wore rugs in the desert (erm, aren't they from England)

 

[Enfys]

Each to their own, I can see both sides to the situation, if, as a YO you don't want this sort of vice on your yard then that's your privilege to say so. As a livery you have less say over what neighbours your horse has, and virtually no comeback I imagine, if your horse suddenly copies this. I can see that perhaps a young horse MAY copy weaving, after all they do learn by example, on the other hand they may not. Swings and roundabouts.

I take cribbers, weavers, windsuckers etc quite happily, but then, everything here lives out 24/7 and most times as soon as they are out, moving about and have ad-lib food it stops altogether or at least lessens.

Yes it is annoying to see and hear, but if a horse wishes to stand and suck on my fence posts then fine, dig out, the livery charge will reflect this, I'll just up it by a couple of dollars or so a week to pay for new. I can suggest supplements that may help but I can't MAKE owners agree to use them.

 

[HensPens]

Enfys I have spent the entire Christmas holiday researching affordable suppliments... the winner being Aloe Vera which I'll start him on as soon as he's back on the yard!

 

[Enfys]

Good Luck, let us know how he goes on with it.

I strongly believe that environment/management is as much a factor as anything else.

 

[mainpower]

[ QUOTE ]
and i think having stabled my weaver with over 20 different horses including my own weanlings and lots of horses under 4yrs old- not ONE has shown any sign of weaving that they DON'T copy it.

basing scientific proof on one experience doesn't really work.

rosiie, if you are the one claiming there is scientific proof and studies it helps if you can back it up. i could trawl through google but i'm not the one claiming this study exists.

also what do we do if scientific studies conclude different things?
there are a number of studies which have concluded young horses don't copy, now apparently there is one which has come to the opposite conclusion- how do we decide which is right??

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying that my experience is scientific proof, but do believe that some horses are more likely to copy than others. But I am asking what the scientific proof that they DON'T copy involves. How the experiment was set up, what controls involved, that sort of thing. Like I said, I have always believed that "vices" were not copied, having kept horses for so many years and never had one develop a stereotypie whilst in my care, and in my London days my horses were fully stabled with no turnout. But my youngster has only picked up his weaving since being put opposite a horse that weaves.

 

[russianhorse]

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Enfys I have spent the entire Christmas holiday researching affordable suppliments... the winner being Aloe Vera which I'll start him on as soon as he's back on the yard!

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Ok, thicko alert here........why suppliments? I thought it was boredom or stress related? Maybe i'll just stand in the darkened corner with my dunce hat on

On answer to your original post (before I hijacked it) my previous yard took on windsuckers and crib-biters - they were just segregated slightly when stabled (had the stables facing the fields rather than each other) but YO never had any issues with horses and vices (just owners that had no idea how to handle strong horses lol)

 

[RunToEarth]

[ QUOTE ]
and i think having stabled my weaver with over 20 different horses including my own weanlings and lots of horses under 4yrs old- not ONE has shown any sign of weaving that they DON'T copy it.

basing scientific proof on one experience doesn't really work.

rosiie, if you are the one claiming there is scientific proof and studies it helps if you can back it up. i could trawl through google but i'm not the one claiming this study exists.

also what do we do if scientific studies conclude different things?
there are a number of studies which have concluded young horses don't copy, now apparently there is one which has come to the opposite conclusion- how do we decide which is right??

[/ QUOTE ]
As I have already stated in my previous posts, I was first made aware of it in a lecture given by vets from liverpool vet equine unit, I'm not sure whether you are grasping that I have no means of regurgetating the lecture for you, other than in my own words?
There have been multiple studies conducted with similar outcomes, and one of the popular dissertation topics at ciren is studying groups of horses who are in close contact of one another to monitor the effects of steriotypical behaviour on other horses, which they used to do at the yard I kept oshk at last term. So based on what i have seen, and read, I am willing to believe that it can happen, and for those reasons, I would NEVER stable any of my horses with ones that have such vices, because I wouldn't want mine to develop it, which brings us back to the OP, and why many livery yard owners will not accept horses with vices on the yard. Not just this, but crib biters cause a lot of damage.

 

[Enfys]

Why dunce hat? If you don't ask, you don't learn, and on here you will get a variety of answers, reasonings etc, according to people's experiences and opinions. Mix all that up, inwardly digest and in all likelihood you'll come away with a good idea of what's what, or what isn't, or more questions to ask. Failing all that, just go and Google and do the same to the thousand odd links you'll find on the subject there.

Just a randomly picked article when I googled cribbing:

http://www.virtualtackshop.com.au/store/viewItem.shop?idProduct=270

It is believed that it begins with intestinal discomfort and the action a horse takes (cribbing. windsucking)gives a 'reward' in complete, or partial, alleviation of that discomfort. Therefore a learned habit is formed and the circle begins. A horse may still crib or windsuck even though it is no longer in actual physical discomfort simply because of habit.

 

[Natch]

[ QUOTE ]
They DO copy eachother, studies show thay young horses will copy the actions of known cribbers.

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Rosiie, have you got the references for this please?

I am currently studying it and tutor says/ I have found no evidence to suggest that horses learn it from others - however perhaps young horses (i.e. foals) are different - they copy their mother's behaviour, so it would make sense.

Either way I think the main reason why more than one horse on a yard develops a stereotypy is probably because the environment they are kept in is less than ideal.

I think the person who said they don't want theirs to wear a collar is too right - horses with stereotypical behaviours' stress levels go UP when they are prevented from performing them.

ETS sorry hadn't read whole thread and I see Rosiie has already explained why she can't produce the evidence of this.

 

[millitiger]

rosiie, so was it a proven study or just a lecture?
i am a bit confused... must be a bit too much mulled wine!

it just really winds me up when apparently there is 'proof' that they copy but it can't actually be produced- perhaps i am sensitive as i have a weaver and am sick of people saying horses will copy him even though in 6 years with plenty of different youngsters stabled in sight of him, none have copied at all.

mainpower, i think someone earlier in the post has referenced studies to prove it is not copied- perhaps if you look into them you will see what the enviroment/conditions were like?

 

[_HP_]

Its quite likely, in the cases whereby others copied the behaviour, that those horses were kept in similar surrounding and with similar management. Therefore, its likely that they are just exhibiting the same behaviour due to stress or whatever rather than actually copying each other.

My windsucker/cribber lives with 4 others and none has picked up the habit. IMO, this is because they arenot in a stressful environment. The cribber does it less now he lives with them.

 

[Gucci_b]

At my yard there is a horse that weave's very badly,(owner has just put up weaves bars) also walks the fence line. Has damaged his concrete stable with the feet moving side to side when he weaves, We had another person at the yard who had a foal who started to copy the horse that weaved, I believe at an early age horses will mimic others, as i have seen this happen. Have'nt seen it happen in an older horse... not saying that it can't happen.... Have also seen a lot of comp horse's that wind suck and chew wood, due to limited turnout... or no grazing

 

[HensPens]

[ QUOTE ]


Ok, thicko alert here........why suppliments? I thought it was boredom or stress related? Maybe i'll just stand in the darkened corner with my dunce hat on

[/ QUOTE ]

It's thought that crib bitting can be related to gastric discomfort, such as that from Stomach ulcers, the horse only produces saliva when they are chewing and saliva helps excess stomach acid which causes ulcers, so they find a way to produce extra saliva. Others think that it maybe the gulping of the air that helps relieve the discomfot. The horse then starts to get an endorphin rush from the cribbing so carries on...

I'm going to start him on Aloe Vera (to eat) as it's meant to soothe and promote healing... plus it's the most cost effective suppliment I can see....

(he does have other symptoms of ulcers and is also an ex-racer!)

 

[Booboos]

Anyone with access to the internet can search Google Scholar (http://scholar.google.co.uk/schhp?hl=en&tab=ws) If you put in something like "crib studies" or similar you will get loads of hits. You will need to pay (or access the full article through a Uni or College library subscription), but almost all papers will have a summary for free.

I couldn't find any studies that proved there was a connection, but I only looked at a couple of meta-studies (like the one I referrenced above) which summarize the results of others.

Regarding how to conduct such a study, the obvious way to do it is to:
- define the behaviour you want to study
- find a horse that consistently exhibits the behaviour
- identify a number of horses that have not previously exhibit the bahaviour
- stable them together, noting all variables (e.g. proximity, line of sight, accoustics, etc.) and see what happens
- vary some of the variables and see what happens
- meanwhile keep another control group of horses that have not previously exhibited the behaviour in conditions as close as possible to the original group and see what happens there as well to eliminate other contributory factors.

(sorry OP for taking over your post! For what it's worth I think the YO exaggerated, but there isn't much you can do about it! Good luck with the next yard).

 

[Navalgem]

Pfft, I had a mare that cribbed - and her foal - now nearly 4 never has. Rubbish. I've never heard fropm any vet that it is copied and unless someone can prove to me it is - with referenced study then i'll continue to support them, or any other horses with vices! They do not copy!!!! Or you could back a horse just by constantly riding up and down in front of it, or teach it advances dressage steps by playing videos of the move constantly. what tosh!

 

[Angua2]

I am surprised to read posts saying it is copied, there has been a lot a reasearch and much of it showed that it wasn't copied. For what it is worth, I don't think it is as horses stabled opposite and beside a known cribber on my yard for at least 5 years have never, ever copied.

As far as I am concerned it is a myth that is much used. TBH use a wooden bar across the door and let them crib on that. Far simpler and cheeper to replace than a stable door!

 

[Echo Bravo]

Had a mare from the time she was born, she started cribbing when she was weaned and stuck in stable for 24 hours a day at the livery yard I was at. I stuck a collar on her(may I repent my bad deed for many years) and it took me years to realise she was happier without it Food related and NO other horses cann't catch it. And Boswoth why are you doing livery as you don't seem to enjoy doing it.

 

[Mari]

I'm getting confused. I always thought that cribbing was chewing, mainly wood but also plastic, rubber, anything they can bite & pull little bits off but usually not swallow them. My understanding of windsucking is that they hold on to something with their teeth & suck in air at the same time. My little pony is a cribber & a windsucker. When windsucking he holds on to something & gulps in air with a burping sound & the muscle on the underneath of his neck (sorry don't know what it's called) contracts - so it's very well developed & impossible to develop muscle on top of neck. Pony windsucks on haynets, lead rope, tail flaps of other horses rugs, your coat, anything he can exert a pull against. My other 2 (mum & son both homebred) like to chew wood occasionally. The son likes to shred things eg handles of shavings fork, wheelbarrow, edge of water bowl, sponges.

 

[_HP_]

Crib biting is just that...they bite their crib (stable)
Windsucking is when it progresses to gulping down air while cribbing. Although some windsuck without holding onto anything.
Thats my understanding anyhoo

 

[asbo]

we have one on our yard, cribs/weaves/box walks, the whole works, she now lives out

 

[Booboos]

People understand the terms differently:

some people think cribbing is chewing wood - in my opinion this is not a vice, most horses will do this at some point

others think cribbing is gulping air without holding on to anything

Same confusion with windsucking:

some people think it has to involve holding onto something, others think it is any kind of wind sucking.

 

[ecs]

It really annoys me that people still beleive this myth, it is conditions ie stabled too much, too hungry, etc. that causes these habits, its many years since this rubbish was disproved, i had a brood mare that weaved her xxxxx off all day drove me insane to watch her, she produced 7 foals in the time i had her, not one of them weaves, 2 of them i see regularly now 15 & 14 yrs, her foals were with her untill between 5 and 7 months of age and stabled near to her for as long as 4/5 yrs