Livery -v- daughter 🙁

[be positive]

I don't think people are siding with the livery they are just taking an unbiased view that everything was fine, apart from a few issues that were nothing to do with the mare, until your new horse arrived who was used to living in a herd and has become attached to the livery mare who was in the next field, the fact she squirts at yours should not really make another mare behave as you describe, I would possibly expect a gelding to become possessive and start behaving in a riggy way but not a mare.

Hopefully everything will settle down when yours has company but it may still be an issue if she gets attached to the next one, unfortunately dealing with strong personalities has it's drawbacks, as does having liveries sometimes.

 

[Withers]

Thank you all for your replies. Daughter is still at her wits’ end. However, just heard that daughter’s long-outgrown 14.1hh Section D is coming back to our yard beginning of February following being “borrowed” by a friend who needed a companion for her horse, but friend has now found a “permanent” companion so we can have our pony back and she can be turned out with new mare. I know almost everyone is siding with the livery but can any of you imagine how my daughter feels? Or the pressure I’m getting from my daughter? The prospect of having to sell her new horse because of a livery’s horse, the horse she’d been searching for for almost a year - the whole situation is crap!

I can imagine how the poor horse feels in its gilded cage after a decent life in a herd. But poor ickle you and your poor spoilt daughter, of course it's all about you two. It would do your daughter good to experience the consequences of her actions but sadly it is only the horse that will continue to suffer.

People on this thread have told you politely that you need to treat the horse and the livery better.
You've no intention of getting that horse's needs met you just wanted people here to validate your crappy decisions so you can get rid of a livery guilt free. Own your animal cruelty.

 

[Rowreach]

Thank you all for your replies. Daughter is still at her wits’ end. However, just heard that daughter’s long-outgrown 14.1hh Section D is coming back to our yard beginning of February following being “borrowed” by a friend who needed a companion for her horse, but friend has now found a “permanent” companion so we can have our pony back and she can be turned out with new mare. I know almost everyone is siding with the livery but can any of you imagine how my daughter feels? Or the pressure I’m getting from my daughter? The prospect of having to sell her new horse because of a livery’s horse, the horse she’d been searching for for almost a year - the whole situation is crap!

I think the point almost everyone was trying to make was that getting rid of your livery's horse would not solve the problem, which seems to be your daughter's mare.

I'm sure she is upset, we all get frustrated when things don't go to plan with our horses. Hopefully her new companion will help, as it sounds like you have a very distressed horse that needs help.

 

[Arzada]

I know almost everyone is siding with the livery but can any of you imagine how my daughter feels? Or the pressure I’m getting from my daughter? The prospect of having to sell her new horse because of a livery’s horse, the horse she’d been searching for for almost a year - the whole situation is crap!

The livery is a completely innocent party in all of this. No I can't imagine how your daughter feels because I wouldn't be blaming the horses or the livery. Your new horse is now in isolation which is completely unacceptable. I hope that from this your daughter learns that a horse's inherent needs come before your daughter's desires ie not needs. And maybe, as an adult, she could be thinking about this rather than pressuring you. The choice to sell is hers though she can of course duck the responsibility, which is already stated, by blaming someone else. To avoid her making any decisions and taking any sort of responsibility you can always end the livery contract. It does seem to be about you and your daughter. Or have I missed statements of compassion for your new horse? The whole situation really is crap for your new horse and she too is at her wit's end. The difference between her situation and you and your daughter's situation is that the mare cannot improve her life.

 

[JJS]

I don't think people were siding with the livery per se, but you wanted unbiased views and you got them. If, instead, you were looking for validation to act in a manner that wouldn't have solved your problem and would have been arguably unfair to the other person involved, asking strangers their opinions probably isn't the best approach.

I think you know, in your heart, that it wouldn't be very fair to give your livery the heave-ho, which is why you asked, and that you're probably a nice yard owner who's stuck between a rock and a hard place. Unfortunately, in this instance, I think you have to tell your daughter to suck it up, as it sounds like you have a potentially workable solution on the horizon.

Besides, where you have horses, there are always going to be the occasional obstacles rearing their ugly heads. I like to think of it as character building!

 

[Ticky]

JJS - your comment about me being a nice livery owner is one my husband is frustrated about - I let the liveries get away with murder and he is always telling me to “take control “! I am genuinely stuck between a rock and a hard place - my daughter has genuine issues with the “other” livery, and I can understand my daughter’s frustrations which I haven’t posted on here, but I will say a lot of yard owners would have stamped on her long ago! She used to be a lovely livery - so helpful - but all that has changed. I don’t need comments like those of “Withers”. I’m ignoring her/him. I’m not here to get into a bitching argument. I’m literally at the end of my tether - totally chilled horse turns into a nightmare because of attachment to livery’s (admitted) mate-ish horse. Does my daughter risk losing £8k? WTF do i do?

 

[FourLeafClover]

Ticky, I understand that the situation is difficult for you and your daughter. You have asked for opinions, of which you have had lots. You’ve also asked for solutions - and again there are some good suggestions here 🙂

1) Allow your daughters mare a companion (could her and the companion go on opposite turnout to the other livery’s mare ie. out at night if the other mare is out in the day?)

2) Tell your livery you would like her to move (difficult to get proper views on this when not much has been said about the them other than the poo picking and squirty mare).

3) Continue with both horses where they are, what you’re doing now, and hope that your daughter’s horse settles in time. Maybe involve a behaviourist if the attachment is effecting your daughters and the mare’s “working relationship”.

I hope you find a solution that keeps everyone happy. Not easy when it’s both personal and professional!

 

[Wheels]

Now it sounds like we are getting to the crux of the real problem

Your daughter, for whatever reason, does not get on with this livery. I think the fact that her horse is not settling is heightening this issue. If the livery has done something wrong that has not or cannot be rectified then that is the reason to ask her to leave, your daughters horse being a problem sounds like a red herring / excuse because you don't want to deal with the real issue.

But just not being as helpful as he or she once was is not a valid reason to throw someone off the yard. What has the livery done to rile you or your daughter so much? At the moment your story doesn't ring true

 

[Rowreach]

JJS - your comment about me being a nice livery owner is one my husband is frustrated about - I let the liveries get away with murder and he is always telling me to “take control “! I am genuinely stuck between a rock and a hard place - my daughter has genuine issues with the “other” livery, and I can understand my daughter’s frustrations which I haven’t posted on here, but I will say a lot of yard owners would have stamped on her long ago! She used to be a lovely livery - so helpful - but all that has changed. I don’t need comments like those of “Withers”. I’m ignoring her/him. I’m not here to get into a bitching argument. I’m literally at the end of my tether - totally chilled horse turns into a nightmare because of attachment to livery’s (admitted) mate-ish horse. Does my daughter risk losing £8k? WTF do i do?

You've been given lots of advice on what to do, based on the information you provided in your OP.

Now you're saying there's more to it regarding the relationship between your (adult) daughter and your livery, which means that anyone who has offered advice and opinions so far has pretty much wasted their time.

If your livery has recently had a baby, I'm not too surprised that things have changed tbh.

 

[ihatework]

JJS - your comment about me being a nice livery owner is one my husband is frustrated about - I let the liveries get away with murder and he is always telling me to “take control “! I am genuinely stuck between a rock and a hard place - my daughter has genuine issues with the “other” livery, and I can understand my daughter’s frustrations which I haven’t posted on here, but I will say a lot of yard owners would have stamped on her long ago! She used to be a lovely livery - so helpful - but all that has changed. I don’t need comments like those of “Withers”. I’m ignoring her/him. I’m not here to get into a bitching argument. I’m literally at the end of my tether - totally chilled horse turns into a nightmare because of attachment to livery’s (admitted) mate-ish horse. Does my daughter risk losing £8k? WTF do i do?

See that’s the thing. It doesn’t matter how much you spend on a horse, they are all individuals and need managing as such.

It sounds like you have 2 issues here and are in danger of blurring the lines.

1. You have bought a horse whose needs you can’t or won’t deal with and it’s stressing everyone out

2. You have a livery who you are struggling to manage appropriately.

You can deal with 2. but it won’t necessarily change 1.

 

[ester]

Oh I love it when there is a whole additional back story that doesn’t get included but people are supposed to be psychic about 🙄.

It’s not unusual for it to take a long time to find a horse, it’s not unusual to have issues with said horse latter on. I’d actually consider getting some help to help you and daughter understand more about horse behaviour.

 

[9tails]

Are you new to this livery lark and horses in general? They're not machines, they all have different personalities and some just can't cope with your set up. I have a mare with separation anxiety, she's no trouble as far as I'm aware but she's on herd turnout with solid friends. If somebody else's horse was acting up because they'd become attached to my horse, it would be their issue not mine. Your horse isn't important to the livery, her horses are important to her.

Short of sticking a bung up her fanny how do you suggest livery stops her mare from squirting? It is NATURE.

 

[LaurenBay]

I feel sorry for your daughter, I feel more sorry for your livery and her Horse that is receiving the blame.

Your daughter needs to understand that it is not the other liveries fault, her Horse is the one causing issues. Therefore her Horses issues need to be addressed. Getting rid of the other Horse will not change daughters Horse. This is what I would do:

1. Give her a companion and see if she settles
2. If she doesn't settle, put her on Regumate

I'd also speak to old owners and ask more about what routine she was kept in, you may need to tweak your routine a bit.

 

[paddi22]

I think at the base level you have to sort out:

- Why does you daughters personal view of liveries have any impact on your business?
Unless the livery has been abusive or threatening to your daughter, i don't understand why her opinion on the livery is valid or coming into the equation? I've been on a load of livery yards over the year. i paid a lot of money under agreement with the yard owner, not their extended family.

- Why haven't you kicked the livery off before now? I think you know kicking the livery off is the wrong thing to do or else you wouldn't have posted here.

I think yourself and your daughter are panicing because you have a currently unusable expensive horse and because of that everything is getting muddled. Chances are if you kick the livery out your mare will just glue itself to another animal because the current turnout situation is stressing her out.

There area few different issues getting muddled here.

- a mare with a management situation that isn't working for her at the moment
- a daughter pulling her weight because she wants her horse to ride
- a livery who has let things slide because of personal circumstances
- a yard that has no clear rules and warning/punishment processes in place to keep order
- a livery owner who doesn't feel confident enough to draw lines on behaviour

You need to pick these apart, but the mare issue is only solved by figuring out what the mare needs to settle her. And theres no guarantee moving the livery will fix your problem. And if you do there's a good chance it will be terrible PR for your business. I wouldn't be impressed at a yard asking a livery to move because the daughters horse had an issue with a horse that had been there for years. .

 

[AmyMay]

WTF do i do?

You take control and perhaps be slightly less hysterical about it.

Give your daughters mare some company (immediately) and stop thinking of your livery's mare as being the problem. It isn't. And any issues you have with the livery are a totally separate issue.

Individual turnout can work for some, but as you're discovering so many horses simply can't cope with it.

 

[elliejhb]

Take the fact that the new mare is owned by your daughter out of the equation and think if it was 2 liveries what would you do?

 

[Ossy2]

How many horses are at this yard? Is it just the liveries mare and your daughters?
I think there are two parts to this essentially your daughter has a problem with the current livery which extends to long before daughters horse came around and now daughters stress about new mare is attributed to the livery’s mare as she has a issue with its owner.
What makes you think getting rid of your current livery would mean your daughters horses behaviour would improve? Surely it will just get attached to something else?
If you want to support your daughter ask the livery to leave it’s your yard after all you can do what you like, but the issue with your daughters horse would still continue I’d guess.
I’d get your mare scoped for Ulsers get more company and get it into a proper routine with proper exercise, if it’s too much for your daughter get professional help in. At the price you paid I’m assuming this is some kind of sports/competition horse, they need mental stimulation.
My mare seasons all year round, is on individual turnout but is in a strict routine with plenty of varied exercise and she thrives on it. If for some reason (usually work) I don’t ride for a few days the girls on the yard tell me about as she gets more stressy and difficult to handle just because she’s not having that mental stimulation.

So two things sort situation between daughter and livery and find a way to work your daughters horses issues out get help with that if you need.

 

[eggs]

I agree that it is not the livery mare's fault that your daughter's mare is turning out not the horse she thought she had bought. If for some reason that you do not wish to divulge you want the livery to leave then that is a separate issue.

I keep my horses in a mixed herd (all here since foals) but one of my mares would get very stressed if any one of her field companions was taken out of the field - it didn't matter which one, could be a gelding, could be a mare but she did eventually settle after a number of years and would just amble up to the gate, call a couple of times and then go back to graze. However her ground and ridden work never suffered and she was always a delight to do

I don't know how much experience your daughter has of mares and / or warmbloods but in my experience they are not a dope on a rope and you often have to manage around their needs and quirks. For example one of my geldings has to come in first at coming in time otherwise he just chases all the others horses off from the gateway and runs them around the field.

Your daughter's mare is screaming out that something is wrong, it might be to do with her management or it might be a physical issue notwithstanding her previous vetting. I know it is very frustrating when you think you have finally found your dream horse so I hope you get to the bottom of the problem(s) but if not the best thing will be to sell the mare and start looking again.

 

[Clodagh]

Thank you all for your replies. Daughter is still at her wits’ end. However, just heard that daughter’s long-outgrown 14.1hh Section D is coming back to our yard beginning of February following being “borrowed” by a friend who needed a companion for her horse, but friend has now found a “permanent” companion so we can have our pony back and she can be turned out with new mare. I know almost everyone is siding with the livery but can any of you imagine how my daughter feels? Or the pressure I’m getting from my daughter? The prospect of having to sell her new horse because of a livery’s horse, the horse she’d been searching for for almost a year - the whole situation is crap!

It is really not siding with one or the other, just that I don't think that evicting a no trouble paying livery will solve it. I think the companion sounds like a great idea and I hope it works out.

 

[laura_nash]

I know almost everyone is siding with the livery but can any of you imagine how my daughter feels? Or the pressure I’m getting from my daughter? The prospect of having to sell her new horse because of a livery’s horse, the horse she’d been searching for for almost a year - the whole situation is crap!

No-one is "siding" with anyone, you asked for opnions and got them.

If the real question is: "my daughter doesn't like one of my liveries and wants me to chuck her off, should I?" then that is the question you should have asked.
If the real question is "my livery is doing / not doing xxx since she had a baby, what should I do? should I ask her to leave?" then that is the question you should have asked (and I'm sure my YO at the time thought it once or twice when I first had mine!).

In regards to the problem with the new mare it sounds like your daughter has fixated on the issues she is having being somehow "caused" by the liveries mare, and decided that all her problems will disappear if the other mare leaves. That is highly unlikely. If your daughter had already had her mare for years and this problem only started when the liveries mare arrived then you could sort-of see the argument (though I'd still say its better to try and deal with it initially than avoid it) but in the current circumstances the most likely explanation is that your daughters new mare is stressed over her move and that won't be fixed by chucking the livery off. I think you need to calm everyone down (including yourself) and have a sensible conversation with your daughter about the way forward that doesn't involve any reference to the livery and her mare.

I don't think you mention your daughters age, but judging by your posts ("The prospect of having to sell her new horse because of a livery’s horse", "My daughter is now thinking of selling this mare for a pittance (she wasn’t cheap!!!!) because she can’t do anything with her.") I am assuming she is a minor and maybe not able to think things through in an adult way (TBH these both sound like the reactions I might expect from my 7 year old daughter). In that case it is up to you to be the adult here and help her work through the issues she is having to reach a positive outcome. If she does decide she has over-horsed herself and the way forward is to sell (which would NOT be the fault of the other horse!) then there is no reason to assume you would need to sell for a pittance unless you massively over-paid originally, though you may need to involve a professional (e.g. put her on sales livery).

The new companion is good news and hopefully will help your daughters mare calm down, though of course she may well become fixated on her companion instead. If it was me I would get someone in to help with the handling issues (personally it would probably be an IH RA, but anyone like that, e.g. a good instructor). I would also look at the new mares feed (I would cut out everything except hay for now) and as others have said contact the previous owners to go over her previous management and see if they have any insights into her current behaviour.

 

[CJoe]

to be fair, I feel sorry for the livery getting all the blame here. It sounds more like your daughters horse is the issue. remove livery mare, you will have an issue, daughters mare will simply re-establish an obsession to another horse. Sounds also as though daughter is not really addressing the issue with her own mare and just blaming another horse.

In your position I would be the livery manager and tell your daughter to wind her neck in and deal with her mare as a separate issue, this isn't going to magically go away without some thought and work.....and tell livery to start making more of an effort etc but the two are totally separate issues.

One thing I cannot stand is family on a yard who feel they are "entitled", other liveries are paying clients!

 

[EventingMum]

Is your yard very small? Why can you not keep these two away from each other and give your daughter's horse a companion? Personally, I would be tempted to create a small herd to try and prevent your daughter's horse fixating on a particular horse, individual turnout isn't for every horse. If you and your daughter are struggling with the mare perhaps either get someone to come and help or send her away for a week or two to get worked properly. Some horses just get attached to others really easily, when he was young one of ours would only have to stand next to another horse in a prize giving to decide it was his new best friend and would shout and be ridiculous when they were parted - he just needed to grow up and be given something else to occupy his mind!

You say the livery has improved in terms of poo picking, perhaps she was struggling with a new baby, a bit of understanding goes a long way and her horse's mareishness is no reflection on her as a person. Plus if you ask her to leave there nothing to say your daughter's horse won't attach herself to another one, the next one might not squirt but your daughter's horse might still react the same way.

 

[Nasicus]

Maybe your daughter is better off selling the mare if noone is willing to provide the poor horse with the correct living arrangements it needs. Whether it cost 8k or £8, horses are individuals. Some need individual turnout, some need herd turnout. Clearly Individual turnout isn't working.

 

[Merlod]

You're the YO, you can do what you want but please warn the next livery who fills the poor womans space that they may be given notice to leave at the whim of your daughter.

 

[Lurfy]

You mention the livery has recently changed and not in a good way, not picking up manure, leaving horses out overnight. My daughter had her first baby last year and everything else in her life has taken the backseat, and rightly so. Our horse (we share him) is on full board so we don't need to do daily care which is a great help. I wonder if you could offer additional services of bringing her horses in etc for a fee. It might help the both of you, or perhaps she would be better off finding a place where they will do extra care. She might be struggling with the needs of her family and the needs of her horses.
As for your daughter's mare, that's a separate issue in my opinion. The removal of the livery may not solve this problem. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[Ticky]

No-one is "siding" with anyone, you asked for opnions and got them.

If the real question is: "my daughter doesn't like one of my liveries and wants me to chuck her off, should I?" then that is the question you should have asked.
If the real question is "my livery is doing / not doing xxx since she had a baby, what should I do? should I ask her to leave?" then that is the question you should have asked (and I'm sure my YO at the time thought it once or twice when I first had mine!).

In regards to the problem with the new mare it sounds like your daughter has fixated on the issues she is having being somehow "caused" by the liveries mare, and decided that all her problems will disappear if the other mare leaves. That is highly unlikely. If your daughter had already had her mare for years and this problem only started when the liveries mare arrived then you could sort-of see the argument (though I'd still say its better to try and deal with it initially than avoid it) but in the current circumstances the most likely explanation is that your daughters new mare is stressed over her move and that won't be fixed by chucking the livery off. I think you need to calm everyone down (including yourself) and have a sensible conversation with your daughter about the way forward that doesn't involve any reference to the livery and her mare.

I don't think you mention your daughters age, but judging by your posts ("The prospect of having to sell her new horse because of a livery’s horse", "My daughter is now thinking of selling this mare for a pittance (she wasn’t cheap!!!!) because she can’t do anything with her.") I am assuming she is a minor and maybe not able to think things through in an adult way (TBH these both sound like the reactions I might expect from my 7 year old daughter). In that case it is up to you to be the adult here and help her work through the issues she is having to reach a positive outcome. If she does decide she has over-horsed herself and the way forward is to sell (which would NOT be the fault of the other horse!) then there is no reason to assume you would need to sell for a pittance unless you massively over-paid originally, though you may need to involve a professional (e.g. put her on sales livery).

The new companion is good news and hopefully will help your daughters mare calm down, though of course she may well become fixated on her companion instead. If it was me I would get someone in to help with the handling issues (personally it would probably be an IH RA, but anyone like that, e.g. a good instructor). I would also look at the new mares feed (I would cut out everything except hay for now) and as others have said contact the previous owners to go over her previous management and see if they have any insights into her current behaviour.

No-one is "siding" with anyone, you asked for opnions and got them.

If the real question is: "my daughter doesn't like one of my liveries and wants me to chuck her off, should I?" then that is the question you should have asked.
If the real question is "my livery is doing / not doing xxx since she had a baby, what should I do? should I ask her to leave?" then that is the question you should have asked (and I'm sure my YO at the time thought it once or twice when I first had mine!).

In regards to the problem with the new mare it sounds like your daughter has fixated on the issues she is having being somehow "caused" by the liveries mare, and decided that all her problems will disappear if the other mare leaves. That is highly unlikely. If your daughter had already had her mare for years and this problem only started when the liveries mare arrived then you could sort-of see the argument (though I'd still say its better to try and deal with it initially than avoid it) but in the current circumstances the most likely explanation is that your daughters new mare is stressed over her move and that won't be fixed by chucking the livery off. I think you need to calm everyone down (including yourself) and have a sensible conversation with your daughter about the way forward that doesn't involve any reference to the livery and her mare.

I don't think you mention your daughters age, but judging by your posts ("The prospect of having to sell her new horse because of a livery’s horse", "My daughter is now thinking of selling this mare for a pittance (she wasn’t cheap!!!!) because she can’t do anything with her.") I am assuming she is a minor and maybe not able to think things through in an adult way (TBH these both sound like the reactions I might expect from my 7 year old daughter). In that case it is up to you to be the adult here and help her work through the issues she is having to reach a positive outcome. If she does decide she has over-horsed herself and the way forward is to sell (which would NOT be the fault of the other horse!) then there is no reason to assume you would need to sell for a pittance unless you massively over-paid originally, though you may need to involve a professional (e.g. put her on sales livery).

The new companion is good news and hopefully will help your daughters mare calm down, though of course she may well become fixated on her companion instead. If it was me I would get someone in to help with the handling issues (personally it would probably be an IH RA, but anyone like that, e.g. a good instructor). I would also look at the new mares feed (I would cut out everything except hay for now) and as others have said contact the previous owners to go over her previous management and see if they have any insights into her current behaviour.

😁

laura_nash - my daughter is thirty this year, married, and has an almost four year old son so not a “minor”! 😱

 

[9tails]

😁

laura_nash - my daughter is thirty this year, married, and has an almost four year old son so not a “minor”! 😱

Maybe you should both stop acting like children in that case.

 

[ester]

Quite!

 

[Nari]

Look at it this way, if your daughter owned the existing livery's horse & the new mare had been brought in by a livery would you be telling your daughter to leave? Somehow I don't think so.

It sounds to me that your daughter &, to a lesser extent you, are looking for someone to blame rather than deal with normal, if annoying, horse behaviour. I have some sympathy for your daughter, but a lot more for your livery. If you make her leave I think you'd be totally unreasonable & I hope she'd make the circumstances well known locally so that any potential new livery knew just what type of a yard they were moving onto.

 

[milliepops]

Is your yard very small? Why can you not keep these two away from each other and give your daughter's horse a companion? Personally, I would be tempted to create a small herd to try and prevent your daughter's horse fixating on a particular horse, individual turnout isn't for every horse. If you and your daughter are struggling with the mare perhaps either get someone to come and help or send her away for a week or two to get worked properly. Some horses just get attached to others really easily, when he was young one of ours would only have to stand next to another horse in a prize giving to decide it was his new best friend and would shout and be ridiculous when they were parted - he just needed to grow up and be given something else to occupy his mind!

You say the livery has improved in terms of poo picking, perhaps she was struggling with a new baby, a bit of understanding goes a long way and her horse's mareishness is no reflection on her as a person. Plus if you ask her to leave there nothing to say your daughter's horse won't attach herself to another one, the next one might not squirt but your daughter's horse might still react the same way.

agree with all of this.
I have a difficult mare who gets attached to my other horse (whatever other horse I might own, that is) and she needs management to accommodate her quirks and a bit of understanding that she's like this.

I would also not discount the huge turmoil that moving can be for some horses. if they are a bit sensitive, even if they don't seem that way on the outside - god knows horses are good at hiding their "emotions", for want of a better word - then moving yard and ownership can really affect them negatively. It's alarming as an owner, and frustrating when you just want to crack on, but it really can set some of them back significantly and only time, patience and careful management will get you through it.