Livery with no grazing.

[EmmaC78]

I wouldn't consider it either unless, as others have mentioned, it was on a short terms basis for veterinary reasons.

 

[ihatework]

Sounds like financial suicide to me

 

[sarahw123]

I would not.
But plenty do.
You are more likely to get serious people consider it for top competition horses, eventers, hunters etc.
Maybe rent as a whole to a professional rider.
Or advertise as a recouperation livery yard for injured horses.
Those on box rest and needing limited turnout and fitness work.
Installing a walker would be a huge plus.
The only issue is liveries wouldn't be long term, there would be lots of turn over.
Get a good reputation and references and you could ask your local equine vets to recommend you to owners of injured horses.

I like this idea.

 

[Spring Feather]

My new equestrian centre has little 'grazing' compared to my farm which has tons of grazing in big pasture fields. The new place has lots of small paddocks however and as we feed hay all year round anyway whether at the farm or the EC it doesn't matter so long as the horses all get long turnout each day. At the EC most people are riders and horses are exercised so turnout in small paddocks doesn't seem to bother them. Whereas at the farm most liveries are occasional trail riders so the big fields do play a big part of keeping those horses exercised.

How big is the paddock and could you not split it into small turnout areas and feed hay instead?

 

[Kezzabell2]

never

 

[niagaraduval]

No I wouldn't I want my boy out on grass as much as possible.

 

[gunnergundog]

A rehab yard would be and has been the only yard I've had horses on in the past with no turnout as in the early days you can't compromise the recovery with uncontrolled movement.

Jo Hodges at Milton Keynes ran such a yard very successfully for many years. HOWEVER, you need the background yourself (chartered physio qualifications) plus you need not only to be a good jockey, but a good jockey WITH feel. Nowadays an OVAL horsewalker, treadmill, swimming pool, sandpit roll plus solarium would be the minimum requirements i would guess. Oh, and an indoor with an exemplary surface.

 

[SO1]

There is a big difference between no grazing and no turnout.

Like others have said there will be people with horses that do not do well with lots of grass for example laminitics who would appreciate a turnout area without much grass - however they would want every day turnout for at least half a day if not a whole day just like most people and a decent surface not a mud pit or concrete and probably company for the horses too and space for them to have a run around and play.

With regard to running a rehab yard for horses on box rest you would need to be able to deal with highly strung horses who are on box rest and if you do not have a walker you have to be able to be willing to walk horses in hand in all weathers if need be. My pony when he was on rehab for an injury when he was coming back into work had to be walked twice a day for an hour and it was winter. He was on a specialised rehab yard with a large horse walker so he went on the walker. He also needed gradual turnout building up to half a day before he was allowed to go back to his normal yard.

If you have 15 horses on box rest or rehab livery this will be a lot of work and if you are having to walk them in hand as well this will take ages. You probably would not be able to do this on your own especially in winter when it gets dark very early especially if you have a lot of horses that need walking or gentle exercise.

Keeping a horse in for long periods of time is not a cheap/easy way of keeping a horse so I don't think you would get the people who are looking for a cheap livery and have no other options.

 

[Lintel]

I'm currently on a yard with limited turnout in summer. Tends to be out during the day and in at night with the odd exception. Stabled 24/7 during winter, supervised turnout in the arena.
The yard owner made it very clear to each livery this was the case as she has such limited grazing. I'm happy enough with this as my boy is lami prone so in for a few hours day or night during the summer suits me well. Bit of a pain in the ass though during winter though. There are 3 horses to each acre paddock during the summer which isn't ideal but the horses are specifically put in with those they get on well with(less agro and less chance of animosity in the paddocks) can't say I'd be interested though if it was more limited than this I love the yard the people are great facilities Great too and hacking is superb so it's just the grazing really- if it wasn't as close to home I probably wouldn't be there

Hopefully that helps x

 

[KautoStar1]

Sorry I don't mean this to sound rude, although it probably will do anyway but I have to question the common / horse sense of anyone suggesting such a thing in the first place. With very few exceptions turn out is a basic need, with grass. It is a horses staple diet.
Why would anyone with a horsey brain even think a no turn out yard is a good idea ?

 

[SpringArising]

Absolutely not.

Turning a horse out in an arena for a couple of hours a day, on its own, is not sufficient turnout.

 

[Wagtail]

Sorry I don't mean this to sound rude, although it probably will do anyway but I have to question the common / horse sense of anyone suggesting such a thing in the first place. With very few exceptions turn out is a basic need, with grass. It is a horses staple diet.
Why would anyone with a horsey brain even think a no turn out yard is a good idea ?

Because anyone with 'a horsey brain' knows that some horses cannot tolerate grass. All horses need turnout, but not necessarily grass. Some cannot go on grass and in some foreign countries grass is not a possibility due to climate.

 

[honetpot]

Most of the yards in Newmarket have no grass or turnout the ones on the High Street you are out of a concrete yard and on to the main road. I used to be a hunting groom and from August to March they did not get turned out, and some expensive competition horses are never turned out. The Kings Troop and Police horses in London have no turn out on a daily basis and the old pit ponies spent weeks underground. Its natural for a horse to live on flat open plains of sparse grass, as soon as we put them in a fenced paddock and stable them at all its not all that natural.

 

[KautoStar1]

Because anyone with 'a horsey brain' knows that some horses cannot tolerate grass. All horses need turnout, but not necessarily grass. Some cannot go on grass and in some foreign countries grass is not a possibility due to climate.

This is true Wagtail but its still pretty rare. One of the reason we have so many problem horses in this country is because novice owners are leaving their horses in the care of novice livery yard owners. No / limited turn out simply leads to problems & experienced owners and livery yard owners would know this.

 

[Tinypony]

It depends on your standards I suppose. For me, I think my horses deserve to be turned out for most of the daylight hours in company with enough room to run about a bit. That's when they're stabled at all.
I think this is a dreadful idea for a livery yard because let's face it, most liveries won't get the sort of exercise working horses get. They'll get maybe an hour a day in a small area while mucking out is going on, they might get exercised for an hour or so a day if they are lucky, or maybe even get stuck on a horsewalker. For a real treat maybe a hack or two at the weekend. But I'm sure you'd find some people who consider themselves to be "competition riders" or similar who would be fine with it.

 

[KautoStar1]

Most of the yards in Newmarket have no grass or turnout the ones on the High Street you are out of a concrete yard and on to the main road. I used to be a hunting groom and from August to March they did not get turned out, and some expensive competition horses are never turned out. The Kings Troop and Police horses in London have no turn out on a daily basis and the old pit ponies spent weeks underground. Its natural for a horse to live on flat open plains of sparse grass, as soon as we put them in a fenced paddock and stable them at all its not all that natural.

Yes this is true. But these are all working horses that are exercised daily and to a high level. & its still a shame that their basic need to be out and forage isnt met. Most average owned horses stabled 24/7 don't get that. 20 min pootling around an arena is not sufficient mental or physical stimulation. In reply to Wagtail, these sorts of situations lead to the behaviour problems we see in so many horses these days. Over fed, under exercised and not enoughy turn out.

 

[tallyho!]

Most of the yards in Newmarket have no grass or turnout the ones on the High Street you are out of a concrete yard and on to the main road. I used to be a hunting groom and from August to March they did not get turned out, and some expensive competition horses are never turned out. The Kings Troop and Police horses in London have no turn out on a daily basis and the old pit ponies spent weeks underground. Its natural for a horse to live on flat open plains of sparse grass, as soon as we put them in a fenced paddock and stable them at all its not all that natural.

Hmmm... I can see this analogy but not all horses come from Nevada (in fact, they didn't). Some actually evolved to live on very lush wetlands. Others in very rocky mountainsides.

If you can give your horse adequate exercise and mental stimulation with no turnout or equine contact, good for you.

Most people I know would prefer their equine friends whether in FT competition or retired, to have some form of free-play with friends of the same species whether it's in a 3 acre paddock or a 20 acre paddock.

 

[only_me]

I think a rehab yard would be a good idea, it certainly would be good here as I dont think we have any.
But I would expect either a horse spa or a swimming pool and a walker tbh. The orchard could be used as "lanes" for when you walk/Long rein at start of rehab.
Rubber mats would be essential and good bedding, and preferably a arena with good surface you can lunge and start to bring back into ridden work in.
I hate lunging pens!
But I think it could work as a rehab yard, i don't think people would be put off having no turnout if injured. You would just need to have a cut off point to when they are ready to go home, eg. Are sound and are ready to start jumping etc.

 

[Highlands]

No way

You could however be a rehab yard for horses on box rest

Sorry should read post before commenting

 

[snooch]

Sorry I don't mean this to sound rude, although it probably will do anyway but I have to question the common / horse sense of anyone suggesting such a thing in the first place. With very few exceptions turn out is a basic need, with grass. It is a horses staple diet.
Why would anyone with a horsey brain even think a no turn out yard is a good idea ?

You are right, it is rude!
I have not stated anywhere that there is no turn out neither have I stated anywhere that there is no grass.
This does not give you the right to question my intelligence or my ability to run a livery yard.
Just rude!

 

[hairycob]

In your first post you said there is no field grazing. That sounds like no grass to most people.

 

[Burmilla]

Fifteen horses in a small area, without the opportunity to have plenty of spaces between them would mean a no from me too.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

I would not consider it.
Even local equine hospitals have turnout for rehab horses.
Even 5 star eventing yards have turnout.
Even laminitics need the freedom to move freely and breathe fresh air with or without grass.

Perhaps Denmark leads the way in making it law that all horses have a minimum of 2 hours turnout daily.

 

[snooch]

I have NOT said no turnout. I have NOT said no grass.

I have already stated we have a large menage and a medium sized paddock fr turnout just no field for grazing.

I welcome comments from people who have actually read my fist post but people stated no turn out or grass are causing the debate to be misinformed.

 

[twiggy2]

I don't see keeping a horse in a stable 20+ hrs per day as any different to keeping a dog in a crate for the same length of time each day-I see neither as acceptable unless it is for short term rehab.rehab is so time consuming per horse that I don't see how it can provide much profit.
8hrs turnout per day plus daily work and interaction time (grooming etc) is the bare minimum for me and is why I am on a yard where maintainance seems to be a the bottom of the list of priorities

 

[milo'n'molly]

No, I don't think it will work in anyway as a regular livery yard. Even if you could find the liveries to fill the stables I think the time it takes swapping all the horses around and the cost in extra fodder and bedding year round would make your yard extreamly hard work and not particularly financially rewarding as I imagine you will still need good facilities to get the yard full in the first place ie good arena and horse walker.

There are certainly other options though if you think outside the box like the rehab yard. This could work with the space you have but would need serious investment as on top of the area people will bee looking for things like a sea walker, spa, water treadmill, swimming pool and maybe a solarium as well as a small turnout area with really good footing year round. Also handling fit competition horses that are in for months of box rest and need walking out I would say you will need staff to help for safety reasons. It can work but will need lots of ££££, perhaps talk to your local vet hospital and see what they say.

If you have good hacking and spare rooms what about a horse and rider B and B? Will require much less financial investment to get going as 5 stables will probably be about right then both the stables and the house is earning it's keep.

Would I move to a yard with such limited turn out? No way. Good luck

 

[be positive]

I have NOT said no turnout. I have NOT said no grass.

I have already stated we have a large menage and a medium sized paddock fr turnout just no field for grazing.

I welcome comments from people who have actually read my fist post but people stated no turn out or grass are causing the debate to be misinformed.

There will be very limited turnout time if you have 15 horses to fit in each day the logistics will be tricky and labour intensive getting a few out then back in throughout the day, there may be grass for a while but with so many going out on so little land it will either get eaten or churned up very quickly requiring investment to keep it in reasonable condition.

The costs involved with keeping horses over winter are usually off set somewhat by being able to graze over the summer, if you do full livery you need to build this in, possibly making in prohibitive for owners or less profit for you, if DIY the owners will probably want to source and store a fair amount of hay in order to keep costs down or you will need to buy in off the field so a big dry barn will be essential or storing wrapped bales outside is an option if you have the machinery to move them.

You really need to do a good business plan to see if it will be worthwhile, providing livery is tough enough with good facilities and grazing, without you may find the margins too small.

Another thought, if you are going to use the arena for turning out it will then not be available for riding in and may well end up totally trashed if they dig, roll and charge about, I never turnout in mine it is far too valuable to risk destruction.

 

[snooch]

Thank you for the constructive replies.

We are looking at securing a 30 acre field which is a short walk from the farmhouse and stables and does not include any roads.

I like the idea of a horse BnB and we will have plenty of room for that, the area is full off lovely woodland and off road hacking so I can see that being a hit at weekends when city horse people want somewhere a little different to enjoy, we do have a very large barn and several other high quality outbuildings where a settee, microwave, kettle etc can be put in....The outside toilet is already under construction to support a shower and change room too.

Am still very much in the early stages of all of this and at the moment it is all idea's and " what will work and what won't"

I still have a lot more planning to do and I lot more financial risk assessment to do to.

Judging from doing Market research there is definite need for a new livery yard as local yards have waiting lists and are turning people away but the majority verdict on here is that no grazing no go. I agree with the no turnout no go as I personally would not keep my horse stabled 24/7 but I sit on the fence with limited turnout.

 

[Penny Eater]

I wouldn't consider limited turnout either, sorry. Not for livery and not for horsey B&B either. Both the horsey B & B holidays I've been on, we turned the horses out in a paddock overnight, I wouldn't like them stabled overnight if you've been hacking all day, I'd like them gently moving around so they don't get stiff stood all night and then be expected to do another long ride the next day.

 

[Firefly9410]

Do not be put off OP This forum is not necessarily representative of the horse world as a whole. Most of the yards I have been on have offered about 7hrs grazing in summer and fields shut intermittently (every day it rains) in winter or 24/7 grazing in summer and fields shut completely for 6mths in winter. I know of others with less grazing than that. It has not stopped any of us successfully keeping happy horses or being happy ourselves. My friends and I consider things like a toilet to be a luxury! Most yards do not seem to have one.

Just because people on HHO are obsessed with turnout that does not mean that in an area with limited livery spaces your minimal grazing yard would not be a success. It would not even require too much financial investment initially if you have the field, the arena and five stables already you could start as soon as you have planning permission to run a business from the property.

If people in the area are being turned away from other yards many will come to you as the empty one even if it is only until a space comes up on a yard with more grazing. All yards have a degree of people moving on and off though, my yard is lovely but still after any 3mth period I find I no longer know half of the people on it! Good luck with your new venture.