Livery yard… extra services

[kibob]

Hi, it’s been years and years since I’ve posted on here so hello.

I run a small DIY livery yard, I have a list of charges for any extras that liveries may need doing and will do full/part livery if required.

My problem is some liveries buddy up and help each other… and this can work fine especially in the winter with that ‘you turnout, I bring in’ kind of arrangement. However, it’s starting to get a bit out of hand in that people are just posting on the group chat when they can’t make it etc and others are stepping in.

Now I want to stamp down on this a bit, because a) in my experience it tends to lead to issues among liveries further down the line and b) it’s my livelihood and every little helps but I feel a bit mean when I know that certain buddy groups work really well and have done for years, yet I can’t have one rule for one and one for another.

How do other yards manage this? I’d be really grateful for any input from yard owners and liveries alike please.

 

[Birker2020]

You need to nip this in the bud. You don't want to lose your extras as they can make up quite a percentage of your income like you say.

Trouble is what do you call enough is enough??? You need to draw the line.

Maybe something along the lines of 'I don't mind you sharing extras with ???? but just be aware that if you need to rely on us at some point in the future we may not always be able to help you out'.

That should do the trick I suppose.

 

[wren123]

I've only been a livery not a yard owner, but I think it would be hard to say that people can't help each other out.
You could put your prices up for the basic DIY so you don't need as much extra income from extras but you still offer them as a service.
Another solution would be to only offer full or part livery, or diy with morning turn out and rug changes included as your minimum livery offering, to bring in extra income.

 

[ihatework]

It’s quite a tricky balance to get, especially if you have established liveries and there is nothing in their contracts about favours/assistance.

From your point of view I totally get it.

From a DIY point of view I’d probably be a bit miffed if I had a good Buddy system going and was then expected to pay the YO instead.

I think you need to think about what you want from the yard. Is it a DIY yard or is it an assisted yard? If the latter you will need to have it in the contract and apply consistently. Expect an initial bit of grumbling and to possibly loose a couple of liveries over it, but ultimately your yard, your livelihood, your rules. Set the boundaries and it will settle down long term

 

[Birker2020]

On our yard (assisted DIY and part and full livery) DIY's get charged basic stable and grazing and then £2.50 turn out but free bring in, or vice versa so we get one free a day except at weekends. It works out well.

The YO doesn't mind others helping out in the least bit as she's very amicable, but even she might be a little peeved if she kept reading on the group chat that others were wanting fellow liveries to help them out instead of going to her staff via her.

I don't know really. Its a hard one.

 

[asmp]

To be honest I’d be a bit miffed if I couldn’t share help with my other liveries at the DIY yard I’m on as, after all, DIY is do it yourself. If it was an assisted livery yard that would be different

 

[Willowbankstables]

I was on a livery yard where the owner suddenly banned people from helping each other and I have to say, it caused quite a lot of bad blood. If it was the rule when people moved on, then fair enough but allowing something to happen for years and then banning it is a bad idea imo. You'd be better putting up the price of the basic DIY, or formally informing your liveries that you are changing to be an assisted/ part livery yard only and no longer offer DIY. Obviously with enough notice for people to move elsewhere if they are not happy with this.

 

[MissTyc]

We run DIY with assistance. It is a DIY yard so the baseline is that you do your own horse or get someone else to do it for you. If you need to pay for assistance, you pay the yard manager but if liveries are helping each other for free, that's fine. What always amazes me is the number of liveries who think they yard will do it for free as a one off because their mate normally does it for free ... We've actually found most liveries who require assistance prefer to pay the set assistance fee and know their horse is done not as a favour and not likely to get invovled in yard drama. But as a previous poster said, our yard is DIY, we don't really WANT to help out but we will help out for money. The other option would have been to go the "assisted livery" or even "part livery" and have a set service for a higher livery fee.

 

[Tash88]

I think this is a really tricky issue, and it is difficult for us to advise without knowing the types of people involved. Is it a large yard?

The DIY yard I'm on has a similar set up; it is a small yard with 4 part liveries and 9 DIYs, on a mixture of herd and individual turnout. There is a price list of additional services that you can pay for i.e. turning out / bringing in and either the YO does this or she pays others, she makes sure they are all competent though. The prices are very reasonable, in my opinion.

There are some buddying arrangements as well, and the YO doesn't mind this. She just likes to be told in advance if you need some help.

I often need assistance as I have a very busy job and when I have a deadline I can only get down once a day, and I don't have a horsey family / OH who can help me. I help others regularly so I am often 'owed favours', however I generally ask the YO as she is very good with my quirky horse and I trust her 100%, I won't get any complaints about his behaviour etc. However I know I can ask other liveries if I need to.

But there will always be freeloaders. I think you need to say something on the group chat and reiterate that you are there to provide services, the prices, what time you will be around to bring in / turn out, and how far in advance you need to be told. Also maybe put a whiteboard in a communal area where people can write when they need help? You need to say that all ad-hoc requests need to go through you. Some people will moan, but they shouldn't have a horse on DIY if they can't manage it, unless in the case of a genuine emergency.

 

[throwawayaccount]

I'd honestly not step in and upset the applecart

it works well, life happens sometimes and plans get cancelled- its good you have liveries that help one another out

don't start micromanaging as you'll end up with upset liveries down the line

 

[Nasicus]

I'd be pretty upset if I was suddenly told my longstanding arrangements were now banned, and you can expect to lose people over this.
For an average 30 day month with a daily turnout one end of the day charged at say, £2.50 a pop, liveries would be looking at an additional £75 per month to their livery bill, just as an example.

Whether or not losing your existing clientele and bringing in new liveries under the new terms would be preferable to you or not, only you can say.

 

[HashRouge]

It’s quite a tricky balance to get, especially if you have established liveries and there is nothing in their contracts about favours/assistance.

From your point of view I totally get it.

From a DIY point of view I’d probably be a bit miffed if I had a good Buddy system going and was then expected to pay the YO instead.

I think you need to think about what you want from the yard. Is it a DIY yard or is it an assisted yard? If the latter you will need to have it in the contract and apply consistently. Expect an initial bit of grumbling and to possibly loose a couple of liveries over it, but ultimately your yard, your livelihood, your rules. Set the boundaries and it will settle down long term

This.

What's tricky is it sounds like the buddy system has become established and you haven't said that you aren't happy for your liveries to do this. If it is DIY I can see they could be annoyed to find you suddenly changing the goalposts.
I am on a yard that offers services and it has always been very clear that YO is the only person who does this. I share my field with another lady (three retirees between us) and we could easily buddy up for jobs, but we don't out of respect for the YO, who has always been clear that this is her livelihood. The only thing we do buddy up on is poo picking, because that's something the YO prefers not to do (if we ever need it doing, it will be her son or daughter who do it for pocket money).
It is your yard so you can make the rules however you want them, it's just tricky when you have an established system and then try to change it. As others have said, you could lose liveries over it.

 

[EllenJay]

I think I would message on the yard chat that whilst you don't mind other liveries helping each other out it does have an impact on your income. Whilst you are happy for each other to help out with a "You turn out - I'll bring in arrangement" if they start doing other jobs that you would ordinarily charge for you may have to put up your prices to account for the loss of income.

 

[Tarragon]

I think I would message on the yard chat that whilst you don't mind other liveries helping each other out it does have an impact on your income. Whilst you are happy for each other to help out with a "You turn out - I'll bring in arrangement" if they start doing other jobs that you would ordinarily charge for you may have to put up your prices to account for the loss of income.

I think this. Just a warning that if the buddy system continues, you will have to put either your assisted help charges up OR basic livery up.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I would be a bit miffed if a long standing buddy system which works was then banned, and I think if you have a great set of liveries with minimal issues I would err on the side of 'better the devil you know'.

However, you could always message the group and say that unfortunately the decline in requirement of paid assistance has negatively impacted your income, and to keep the livery yard financially viable you are raising the livery price by 'x' per week in 8 weeks time. The chane will come into effect on 'x' date.

 

[Widgeon]

However, you could always message the group and say that unfortunately the decline in requirement of paid assistance has negatively impacted your income, and to keep the livery yard financially viable you are raising the livery price by 'x' per week in 8 weeks time. The chane will come into effect on 'x' date.

I would probably also err on the side of being open with them. You could just say that due to changing circumstances (you can choose whether or not to explain exactly why) the yard is currently not making enough profit to run as a viable business, and you're going to need to raise fees a bit. That way you're being honest but you don't necessarily have to open yourself up to arguments of the the "my livery bill has gone up by £20 but I only ever needed one or two turn outs so it's not fair to me" type. Good luck with it, sounds like you're going to need to be quite tactful.

 

[hock]

It’s been a long time since I’ve done DIY but I always would rather pay the yard owner to do my jobs as I was always short on time and didn’t want to go through the stress of owing favours etc.
I think people sometimes don’t appreciate that a livery is a business and unless it’s providing an income the hassle is really not worth it. I think in your circumstances I would be tempted to tell your liveries that because of your loss of income because they’re all advertising to be helped out on group chat that the rents going up. It’s a lot less hassle for you to have this passive income anyway. Yes they’ll moan but if it’s well run yard and they’re sensible they’ll realise it’s still a good deal.
I used to really hate to see the penny pinching on yards from liveries that resented paying.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I would probably also err on the side of being open with them. You could just say that due to changing circumstances (you can choose whether or not to explain exactly why) the yard is currently not making enough profit to run as a viable business, and you're going to need to raise fees a bit. That way you're being honest but you don't necessarily have to open yourself up to arguments of the the "my livery bill has gone up by £20 but I only ever needed one or two turn outs so it's not fair to me" type. Good luck with it, sounds like you're going to need to be quite tactful.

Agreed, this is a better way to phrase than mine above - if you say why you are opening yourself up to people taking it personally.

 

[Birker2020]

W ... We've actually found most liveries who require assistance prefer to pay the set assistance fee and know their horse is done not as a favour and not likely to get invovled in yard drama.

That's me. I'd rather pay that ask anyone for help.

 

[Lurfy]

My livery only offers full care, there is no DIY rate. I think full care or full DIY makes life easier in terms of knowing what your income will be.

 

[rabatsa]

I would post on the group page what you have told us and say that established helping each other is ok but the one offs are starting to impinge on your income and if it continues then prices will have to rise for all.

 

[deb_l222]

You cannot class yourself as a DIY yard if you then expect people to pay for extras.

DIY is do it yourself, or ask a mate to do it for you. Assisted livery is what you’re offering.

If you do change the rules, you have to change them for everyone but expect people to be peed off if they have buddy arrangements already in place.

 

[TPO]

Is the problem the drop in income?

If so you need to do your sums and figure out how much you want to be earning from your yard monthly/annually.

It might be the case that if you livery is £30pw putting it up to £35 rebalances your figures without increasing your workload.

Are you at home to do the jobs that liveries may require? No point putting your foot down if you have to backtrack a month later because you have plans on the day a livery needs a service.

If a large majority of the yard asked for services on the ine day can you guarantee to accommodate that?

I was on a DIY yard where the YO turned out Mon-Fri then there was a chalkboard where liveries marked up who was available to do weekend turnout. The yard rule was no horse left out alone so the second last to being in brought in the last horse too. Most extra help was arranged between friends but if you wanted the YO to do something like holiday cover they would do it.

Maybe an arrangement like that would allow you to put prices up but still keep your evenings and weekends free/liveries to buddy up

 

[Rowreach]

Leave them to it (it saves you the hassle) and put your prices up. You don't have to offer any explanation, you just have to give them enough notice that if they don't like it, they have time to find somewhere else.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

We run DIY with assistance. It is a DIY yard so the baseline is that you do your own horse or get someone else to do it for you. If you need to pay for assistance, you pay the yard manager but if liveries are helping each other for free, that's fine. What always amazes me is the number of liveries who think they yard will do it for free as a one off because their mate normally does it for free ... We've actually found most liveries who require assistance prefer to pay the set assistance fee and know their horse is done not as a favour and not likely to get invovled in yard drama. But as a previous poster said, our yard is DIY, we don't really WANT to help out but we will help out for money. The other option would have been to go the "assisted livery" or even "part livery" and have a set service for a higher livery fee.

This is pretty much my yard.

It's DIY and you can pay for services but they are fine for liveries to help each other.

I pay for mine to be brought in from November to end of Feb time each winter. Some nights a friend skips out and outs to bed for me.

I would be very miffed and look to move if they yard suddenly said no one could help each other.

The buddy system works for those who can't afford to pay for services.

 

[MuddyMonster]

It’s quite a tricky balance to get, especially if you have established liveries and there is nothing in their contracts about favours/assistance.

From your point of view I totally get it.

From a DIY point of view I’d probably be a bit miffed if I had a good Buddy system going and was then expected to pay the YO instead.

I think you need to think about what you want from the yard. Is it a DIY yard or is it an assisted yard? If the latter you will need to have it in the contract and apply consistently. Expect an initial bit of grumbling and to possibly loose a couple of liveries over it, but ultimately your yard, your livelihood, your rules. Set the boundaries and it will settle down long term

This.

We had similiar at a previous yard and the inconsistency drove me up the wall. I was happy to pay for assistance but it was frustrating when you had pockets of other people that buddied up and it was never challenged.

Can you afford to lose some DIY'ers that don't want to pay for assistance? If you can, I'd look at changing it formally to Assisted DIY.

Otherwise, I'd put a communication out saying that you sont mind established buddy systems remaining but all ad-hoc requests should go through you and be paid for accordingly.

 

[Ossy2]

So I would probably approach it in a slightly different angle. I would issue a note to the liveries saying something along the lines that you understand how useful being able to buddy up with others etc is and you are happy where there are established arrangements which work to ensure adequate welfare provisions for the horses on the yard are being met, however you are becoming increasingly aware/concerned about the amount of adhoc requests/holiday cover/work cover ect requests being made on the group chat and it’s becoming difficult to ensure horses needs are being met in these circumstances therefore requests for services including x y and/or z are to come through you in future to be managed and then list a reminder of the service list and charges to the note.

 

[Bluewaves]

Tell them not to put messages on the group to ask others to do it for them unless they have a specific arrangement with someone else, please come to you instead and you will sort it (with a charge).

(or what the previous poster just said - sorry i missed that it took so long for me to reply)

Also maybe approach the existing helpful buddy people and say you are happy for them to continue to help each other but that if they start to bring in other liveries adhoc, they are actually doing your job.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

My thoughts are you can run whatever type of livery and assistance that you wish however I think you need to be careful about how you go about it and whether or not you’d cope if you had to do all services. If you’ve basically a yard that’s settled with no trouble then that’s something good you don’t want to lose.

You need to think about what business model you are going for and set everyone’s expectations accordingly. Then you need to live up to those expectations. A sure way to have an unhappy atmosphere is to promise something you can’t deliver. Come December and you’ve 20 horses to turn-out and bring in plus several to muck out then maybe it’s not so appealing. What if you’ve got flu and let everyone down or you need to employ someone which eats into any profits. I’ve seen some yards chop and change what they offer on a regular basis and it’s very unsettling.

As others have said if it’s extra cash that you need overall then a blanket rise in overall livery would be easiest to apply, affects everyone equally and means no extra work for you. The other thing you could do would be to replace some DIY will full /part liveries as they leave for regular extra income rather than relying on ah-hoc Income from services. Whilst I think buddying is OK others offering services for cash when you offer them would not be permitted. I personally like an assisted DIY service as I prefer a straight forward business arrangement on the whole rather than favours.

 

[Equi]

If your yard is DIY then I would feel a bit miffed if you suddenly said you’re the only one who can do stuff but at a cost. That’s not what they signed up for. My yard is diy but as a rule yo brings in/out par course in the day to keep the horses in a routine. You’re welcome to come do it yourself as long as it is in keeping with the routine, if you’re late you get the charge for them doing it. It’s in the contract. In summer/weekends you turn out or buddy up and that’s fine - the buddy system on my yard is strong. As long as all the horses are kept to the routine it all works fine. Best of both worlds I suppose.