Livery yard… extra services

[kibob]

Brilliant, thankyou everyone loads of great replies. I think I’m going to leave sleeping dogs lie for now as I do feel this is more of an issue in the summer months rather than winter…. When needs are just can you feed or change a fly rug, bring in for farrier etc. In the winter the buddy system works better as liveries are in more of a routine and also shorter for time so limit the amount of favours they can do.

I will monitor it and if the ad-hoc requests continue will ask them to come directly to me for these.

thanks all

 

[SEL]

One of my old yards changed to assisted because of this. Livery included morning feed and either turn out / bring in with owner very clear that everything else was to be requested from him. It worked well because he was consistent with everyone.

If you really want to do those services then I'd change from DIY to assisted and price accordingly

 

[Shilasdair]

I think it's an incredibly bad idea to touch the buddy system in any way, and agree that you should just put your prices up a little if you need more income.

 

[criso]

I read it that the buddy system was ok and worked well but the issue was the last minute "can someone turn x out for me today" requests on the group chat.

Aside from any financial issues, this could lead to resentment if it's always the same people doing the services for others asking for the favours.

I would monitor but consider making prearranged buddy arrangements ok but ask that last minute requests come to you so horse care isn't left on an ad hoc last minute basis.

 

[Birker2020]

Is the problem the drop in income?

If so you need to do your sums and figure out how much you want to be earning from your yard monthly/annually.

It might be the case that if you livery is £30pw putting it up to £35 rebalances your figures without increasing your workload.

Are you at home to do the jobs that liveries may require? No point putting your foot down if you have to backtrack a month later because you have plans on the day a livery needs a service.

If a large majority of the yard asked for services on the ine day can you guarantee to accommodate that?

I was on a DIY yard where the YO turned out Mon-Fri then there was a chalkboard where liveries marked up who was available to do weekend turnout. The yard rule was no horse left out alone so the second last to being in brought in the last horse too. Most extra help was arranged between friends but if you wanted the YO to do something like holiday cover they would do it.

Maybe an arrangement like that would allow you to put prices up but still keep your evenings and weekends free/liveries to buddy up

Our yard rents a set number of stables out to a lovely couple who then use the allotted stables for full liveries. It means their clients have really good facilities to use and they are constant, meaning you are not getting new people on the yard every few weeks/months. It also means that our YO has a guaranteed income every month. I think a few yards round by us are doing this now.

We are really lucky as the couple that rent out the stables are really likeable and offer lessons not just to their liveries but to us as well. Its a total win win situation.

 

[AmyMay]

Hi, it’s been years and years since I’ve posted on here so hello.

I run a small DIY livery yard, I have a list of charges for any extras that liveries may need doing and will do full/part livery if required.

My problem is some liveries buddy up and help each other… and this can work fine especially in the winter with that ‘you turnout, I bring in’ kind of arrangement. However, it’s starting to get a bit out of hand in that people are just posting on the group chat when they can’t make it etc and others are stepping in.

Now I want to stamp down on this a bit, because a) in my experience it tends to lead to issues among liveries further down the line and b) it’s my livelihood and every little helps but I feel a bit mean when I know that certain buddy groups work really well and have done for years, yet I can’t have one rule for one and one for another.

How do other yards manage this? I’d be really grateful for any input from yard owners and liveries alike please.

When I liveried we all used to do this.

However, one day the YO simply announced that if something needs doing he would do it and we’d pay him for it. In fact he went as far as to state that we must all use at least one daily service. We were given a months notice of the change in rules.

There were a few grumbles initially, but no one left and the system worked very well.

 

[Birker2020]

You cannot class yourself as a DIY yard if you then expect people to pay for extras.

DIY is do it yourself, or ask a mate to do it for you. Assisted livery is what you’re offering.

If you do change the rules, you have to change them for everyone but expect people to be peed off if they have buddy arrangements already in place.

I don't agree. We are DIY with assisted livery if we want it. But we don't have to have it if we can sort it ourselves or get a friend to do it. We also have two liveries who offer services to other liveries which again is allowed. But if we want the yard staff to say bring in on a weekend we just write in the diary and then the YO bills us at the end of the month.

If we forget to write it in the diary then we can text the YO rather than the staff and she will text the staff and they will go straight away and write it in the diary.

 

[Country Mouse]

It looks to me, reading your post that it is not the buddy system itself that you are upset about, but that people are just posting on this board what they need and relying anyone do do the task for them, then hoping for the best. What about insurance? What if someone or the horse were to be injured while the owner is not there. Would your insurance cover this situation? The horse is being handled without the permission of the owner, because of the board system anyone can go and see to any horse without the owner knowing who that might be.

 

[chocolategirl]

It looks to me, reading your post that it is not the buddy system itself that you are upset about, but that people are just posting on this board what they need and relying anyone do do the task for them, then hoping for the best. What about insurance? What if someone or the horse were to be injured while the owner is not there. Would your insurance cover this situation? The horse is being handled without the permission of the owner, because of the board system anyone can go and see to any horse without the owner knowing who that might be.

This is something the majority of livery clients never consider, insurance? I have care custody and control insurance, which covers me to handle all my clients horses, OP do you have this on your yard policy? The way it works on our yard is, only family are permitted to handle each other’s horses, I don’t allow a ‘buddy’ sytem, from experience, it invariably causes trouble ?

 

[bouncing_ball]

This is something the majority of livery clients never consider, insurance? I have care custody and control insurance, which covers me to handle all my clients horses, OP do you have this on your yard policy? The way it works on our yard is, only family are permitted to handle each other’s horses, I don’t allow a ‘buddy’ sytem, from experience, it invariably causes trouble ?

So would your rules not allow me to bring in and ride my friend’s horse on a day she was working a long shift? (Assuming we were both at your yard).

 

[HappyHollyDays]

So would your rules not allow me to bring in and ride my friend’s horse on a day she was working a long shift? (Assuming we were both at your yard).

This depends on how strict the yard are. My sharer had to provide her contact details, NOK and insurance to prove she was covered to ride my horses at a previous yard. Current yard couldn’t care less.

 

[ROMANY 1959]

This sort of thing happened on a yard I had 2 horses on. YO was finding horses left in or out when a buddy had failed to help friend out when asked. So whole yard went part livery, one could chose which 5 days a week to do part livery. YO would then fetch in, skip out, put feed in rug up or turn out rug up feed and skip out. It got rid of a few, but most of us stayed, and were glad we had when the Lane to yard was blocked by 6 ft snow for 5 days. And YO did it all with her husbands help..

 

[chocolategirl]

So would your rules not allow me to bring in and ride my friend’s horse on a day she was working a long shift? (Assuming we were both at your yard).

Nope, but I make this clear to anyone coming to my yard?‍

 

[splashgirl45]

as someone who has been DIY for over 50 years i would be unhappy if YO insisted on doing anything with my horse when i have a friend who is at the same yard who i would prefer.... in this case i dont see why you cant just put the livery up to allow for the lack of income caused by the buddy up system....you can say due to rising costs you need to increase how much they pay....if your yard is advertised as D.I.Y. with services if required then i am not surprised that people do favours for each other.

 

[Abi90]

This is something the majority of livery clients never consider, insurance? I have care custody and control insurance, which covers me to handle all my clients horses, OP do you have this on your yard policy? The way it works on our yard is, only family are permitted to handle each other’s horses, I don’t allow a ‘buddy’ sytem, from experience, it invariably causes trouble ?

Im sure BHS Gold covers you to handle other people’s horses so an easy way around that would be to say that people need that cover to handle other horses?

 

[Rowreach]

Im sure BHS Gold covers you to handle other people’s horses so an easy way around that would be to say that people need that cover to handle other horses?

Whatever happens on a yard can adversely affect the YO's own insurance so it comes down to YO's choice as to what they allow/don't allow.

 

[Winters100]

What does it say in the contract with your liveries? If the contract says that they can only do their own horses then I guess you can stop it. Is it just other liveries that you want to stop doing favours, or is it the case that the contract allows that only the owner or a staff member touches the horse?

I would not be keen on this as a livery. Rug changes are included in our livery, but they are done at set times. It happens very often that owners on our yard work together in case of sudden change in weather, if I notice a horse wearing something not suitable I will message the owner and ask if they want it changed, and they do the same for me. I would happily have the staff do it, but they are not available at every moment to do things immediately.

 

[mariew]

I'd be pretty peeved if all of a sudden i couldn't continue with a friend helping out. However saying that, my ideal yard is an assisted DIY as you don't have to worry about friends forgetting or getting stuck etc. I would look at your income and raise livery fees accordingly. Also maybe re-label your yard as assisted DIY so you can slowly change it.

Diy by nature often means people want to save money where they can so there will always be an element of people helping eachother out to save money.

 

[Jango]

Our yard did this a few years ago and it caused no end of trouble (and DIYs were fairly soon allowed to help each other again!). The yard staff only worked 8-4.30, so bring ins started from 2pm. I wouldn't have minded paying, but didn't want my horse to come in and be put to bed at 2pm in April (not as bad in January!). The yard staff ended up too busy on some days and the quality of the services was bad, forgetting boots, not changing rugs etc. Also if people want rugs changing after winter exercise or an early feed, are you happy for them to do this for each other or do you want to be on the yard super early or later into the evening?
The other reason people ask friends is last minute requests. If we want services we need to put them in the book before the staff start work (which is fine). So if I have an issue at work and I'm going to be 2hrs late down, the yard wont help. But a friend could easily put mine out with theirs.
So I'd only go down this route if you offer services until later in the evening and if you have enough capacity to do things properly if everyone wants a service that day. Otherwise just put your prices up Nobody leaves a yard they are happy with if the prices go up 20/30 quid per month!

 

[Friesianfoal1999]

Hi, it’s been years and years since I’ve posted on here so hello.

I run a small DIY livery yard, I have a list of charges for any extras that liveries may need doing and will do full/part livery if required.

My problem is some liveries buddy up and help each other… and this can work fine especially in the winter with that ‘you turnout, I bring in’ kind of arrangement. However, it’s starting to get a bit out of hand in that people are just posting on the group chat when they can’t make it etc and others are stepping in.

Now I want to stamp down on this a bit, because a) in my experience it tends to lead to issues among liveries further down the line and b) it’s my livelihood and every little helps but I feel a bit mean when I know that certain buddy groups work really well and have done for years, yet I can’t have one rule for one and one for another.

How do other yards manage this? I’d be really grateful for any input from yard owners and liveries alike please.

Ive only being a livery at DIY yards but I have to say ive never heard of any owner be annoyed by this. We have always helped eachother out etc if its full DIY. Now if we have assisted DIY i suppose that would be different. But no, we share it and turn in for others then they turn out for us. done that for 15 years now.

 

[SOS]

I can see both sides. But agree if the system is working well for the liveries it’s not going to go down well.

I was in a situation on a full livery yard (riding was an extra) where the YO got quite annoyed at me for taking one of their services and played the insurance card. My horse was lame and a fellow livery offered for me to hack/ride theirs a few times a week rather than them paying the YO and for me to get some riding. Despite me at the time having grooms insurance and BHS gold the YO played the insurance card. I did query why professional trainers were allowed to come in and ride other horses but I could not exercise a horse for a fellow livery. I ended up leaving for my horse to continue his rehabbing but this was also a deciding factor. The YO was very aware I was still playing full price livery for a horse on complete box rest so no facility use/feed cut/turnout/wash off legs, and I did all hand walking and cold hosing so I did feel it was quite unfair.

Sometimes the little things mean a lot on yards. However I think if you need to rely on the income then consider upping the prices or going to assisted livery. Is there a reoccurant request? I.e in the summer ‘Can someone fly spray, put fly mask and sheet on?’ If so you could change the weekly price to include this on the daily. But be aware the workload will be much higher!

 

[Red-1]

From my point of view, it is a DIY yard and they are doing it themselves.

If you need money from services, I would change what you offer to assisted DIY and include a feed/turn out at one end of the day.

Is it that your official FB page is being used for this? Maybe you would prefer they set up a different page? Although I can't see why.

It actually sounds like the yard is full of friendly and helpful liveries. I would cherish that!

If someone just posts a request and then doesn't make sure the horse is covered, then that livery needs tackling.

 

[splashgirl45]

my friend and i had kept our horses together for 14 years and our previous DIY yard didnt supply any services so when we moved to a yard who did supply services if needed ..we didnt really need them. YO was glad she didnt have to ever worry about our 2 as we were self sufficient. also we both knew each others horses really well so it was better for my friend to deal with my quirky mare rather than risk someone having problems with her..we had a good relationship with this YO and helped with her horses sometimes as well, best yard i have ever been at..

 

[milliepops]

I read it that the buddy system was ok and worked well but the issue was the last minute "can someone turn x out for me today" requests on the group chat.

Aside from any financial issues, this could lead to resentment if it's always the same people doing the services for others asking for the favours.

I would monitor but consider making prearranged buddy arrangements ok but ask that last minute requests come to you so horse care isn't left on an ad hoc last minute basis.

I agree

I was on a yard where there was a mix of long term buddy stuff (you do mornings and i do evenings sort of thing) and YO who provided holiday cover or stuff where a livery didn't have a buddy (like me as I had 2 horses )

the yard whatsapp blew up fairly quickly with people saying they would be late back or couldn't make it today and could someone sort their horse out.
obviously no one wanted to sit back and ignore a horse stuck in the stable with no feed or water but equally the YO wasn't being paid to do the services. it became a total p-take.

I think the suggestion above to split prearranged buddy stuff from short term ad hoc stuff, but that only works if the YO is available every day.

 

[Lucky Snowball]

As suggested above, I would leave things as they are but increase the basic price of livery.

 

[Fred66]

Op had two concerns one was financial but the other was more to do with the potential for resentment between liveries if some started to feel obliged to offer to help.

I would suggest informing them that whilst pre-agreed buddy arrangements were acceptable the ad-hoc last minute requests were not. That going forward they needed to let you if they had a pre-arranged buddy and that all other favours would be added to their bill. So if they are away for a week and have asked someone to do their horse and you are informed then this is ok, or if in the winter one turns out and one brings in then also fine, but texts asking can anyone bring in neddy cos I’m running late are not.
If you are a good livery yard then this shouldn’t upset folks, and if it does tough - it’s your business you provide a price list of extra services for when they can’t do them and people are attempting to circumvent this.

To be honest I’d rather ask the yard owner, whatever it costs me is likely to be less than the fuel to get to the yard and back anyway.

 

[Kat]

I'd say that established regular arrangements are fine but as hoc requests should come to you. That you are keeping your assistance prices low so that people can afford to use them but that you do need that income to keep the yard viable. If no services are used then you will need to reconsider all of your charges to ensure the yard remains a viable business.

A decent hint that you are thinking of putting up the basic rate because they aren't using services but a chance to change things.

I agree that the welfare point is a good one to make too.

You should speak directly to those who have regular arrangements that you are happy with and then address any arrangements that you aren't happy with too.

I would strongly recommend that for any new liveries your contract says all requests for assistance must go to the YO and if they want to make arrangements to help/swap jobs with another livery this needs your approval.

 

[kc921]

From my experience a proper DIY yard is that do it yourself or if you can't, then you get help from other liveries. A yard I used to be at was assisted DIY where they would do morning feed and turn out, then any other services you would have to pay for, no buddy systems, now they have turned full DIY and won't be doing any services at all.
I think you need to establish which one you are

 

[TwyfordM]

I’m on a livery yard that’s also a riding school, we aren’t allowed to handle each other’s horses due to insurance.
It’s a bit of a headache as prices add up quickly, when it was first introduced there was a massive amount of peed off liveries and people left.

I think if I was in your shoes I’d be requesting that everyone that wants to continue the buddy system shows proof of public liability/BHS gold. Ask that all ad-hoc, non long term buddy requests go through you to insure that horses are covered. Put a list up of reasonable prices for services and a time limit say 6am-6pm where you are available for help unless it’s an emergency otherwise you’ll have people messaging at 7pm asking you to grab horse in as they’ve been delayed regularly.

But if you do that, you need to be available at all times or have someone to cover for you. Even if that cover is one of the liveries you know if competent/available and happy to help if needed.

You could just put up livery prices, say buddy system can continue but if you notice a job hasn’t been done by x time you’ll cover and it’s now included in livery up to so many times a week?

I don’t think there is an easy way. Anything you do will ruffle feathers

 

[Apizz2019]

I'm on DIY but pay the yard for extra services, bring in, feet picked etc when I'm at work.

They are open to liveries helping each other but I've chosen to pay for extra services. I'm paying for a service, not owing favours to anyone, and the yard is insured and will do exactly what I need, and how I need it done.

Prior to this, I was on a yard where when I joined most were DIY but it was taken over and only part of full liveries were accepted moving forward. The existing DIYs had already been told, a few months prior to it being taken over, that they were no longer able to help each other and had to pay for services, due to insurance and risk, but I suspect this was down to loss of income. This didn't go down too well with liveries, especially when they were able to help each other on Xmas day, New Year's Day etc.

It didn't affect me as I've always preferred to pay the yard for services.

What I would say, having seen it happen and a half job done with full charge, is to make absolutely sure you are able to provide services, should you put a stop to liveries helping each other.
I can't emphasise this enough.

I'm sure most will swallow new rules but failing to deliver what you're taking away will kill your yard and reputation.