Livery yards and winter turnout?

We have clay and in parts the top soil is very very thin we have to manage it carefully .
There is around thirteen acres of grazing .
With three horses it's doddle with five it's harder work and having around five acres of sacrifice pasture that is used October to April is the only way .
Very few livery yards can turn a profit on five horses on thirteen acres .
 
I wouldn't keep a horse at a yard with limited turnout as I think it's cruel. At the least they should get out during the day in the winter. Ideally 24/7 in the summer although I appreciate some are happy in at night year round.
 
Living where I do I've seen massive house building, reduction of greenbelt and with it a huge increase in the number of horses. Many of those owners, like me moved to this area for the space while still being able to commute (expensively!) to London for work. It's also good old Essex clay. Proper winter turnout is practically extinct now. The places that do offer a few hours a day out Oct - April do so in a bog. It is normal for yards to have 30 stables and 5 acres grazing - that is never going to work is it? Even on the best quality of land, that is too many horses for the space. And like I said, this is Essex clay... Even going on full/part livery doesn't get you any more turnout.

Previously I had my own grazing, maintained it and had mine living out 24/7 with just a bit of mud in the gateways but that land was rezoned for housing so I moved further out and started the hell of livery which has only got worse over the years. AS mine retired they were moved out of the county so they could live out - working full time and commuting meant that I could just about manage while they were in work and I could get others to exercise them but 23 hours a day in the stable retired becomes a welfare issue IMO. Now I won't even consider getting another (which I could afford these days) while I live in this area. Sad for me but better for the horse. Just will have to wait until I can afford to not work in London and can move to the arse end of Suffolk :)
 
I'm sorry but I just don't think I could justify keeping horses in an area where land was either so poor or in such short supply that that winter turnout wasn't possible.

For me the bare minimum acceptable, for a working horse, is a half day (approx 4 hours), and I'd hope to have a walker available in addition to that if possible
 
saddlesore said:
I wouldn't keep a horse at a yard with limited turnout as I think it's cruel. At the least they should get out during the day in the winter. Ideally 24/7 in the summer although I appreciate some are happy in at night year round.
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Coming in at night or day all year round is ideal for most yards, not sure why it is all or nothing and more yards don't do this!!!!
 
ihatework said:
I'm sorry but I just don't think I could justify keeping horses in an area where land was either so poor or in such short supply that that winter turnout wasn't possible.

For me the bare minimum acceptable, for a working horse, is a half day (approx 4 hours), and I'd hope to have a walker available in addition to that if possible
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Totally agree, and as for having a "dirty field kept horse", I know horses including my own that can get dirtier in an hour than being out all day!!!
 
Goldenstar said:
I am sure my hunting fit clipped TB will do just fine turned wth out a rug .
I don't care how you keep your horse I think your sweeping judgements of others are unfair .
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LOL, I am sure he or she will, god forbid they get muddy!!!

I don't care how you keep yours, funny that you find it a "sweeping judgement" no-else has reacted as you have, guilt perhaps of feeling perhaps in a more perfect world your clean horse should get more time out?

Seriously if you have 15 acres for 5 horses (am I reading that wrong are there other liveries?) not sure what your turnout issues are.
 
Around here there aren't any yards that close winter turnout - there was one that did, it closed down over 10 years ago and sold privately because no-one would livery their horse there.

Mine live out 24/7 on around 3.5 acres (two horses) if it is managed well (and I don't mean intensively fertilised etc) it is more than adequate. There is no way I would entertain my horse not being allowed to behave like a horse, regardless of any excuses about mud, not enough land, money etc.
 
Nativelover said:
I think it depends on whereabouts you are in the country. I grew up in the NE and there were no yards that restricted turnout, it was considered cruel to confine horses unless under veterinary care.

However I now live in the NW and have never known restrictions like it, one yard I know actually closes the fields for 9, yes 9, months of the year!!!!
But it also seems accepted over here, by the liveries and so the YO don't bother to offer any alternatives.
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Yes, I think its because there are a lot of built-up areas in the NW and grazing land is scarce. Yards tend to have way more horses on than they have land to cope with and many are a bit amateurish so land management is a foreign language (and currency!). Don't forget that in the NE you were in the rain-shadow so land is naturally drier over there so less likely to be cut to ribbons. My garden is clay soil with sandstone bedrock beneath and even though I have only been outside to see to the chickens it is like a swamp and the mud is inches deep.
 
Wow emotive subject much!

The only thing I would not tolerate for my horses is no turn out at all and I also don't think that turn out necessarily means a field.

There have been numerous mentions of socialising for the horses - the need for them to be able to groom and interact with other horses. I totally agree but how many of you who see that as so important keep your horses in American barn type stabling where there are bars between them and their neighbours? Also how many of you complain about rugs getting trashed by other horses, your horse getting kicked by others etc? It's all part of socialising. There have been a few threads recently regarding individual turn out paddocks - again where is the socialisation in that?

We have our own yard but it doesn't have land, we have summer grazing that we rent and a small amount of land that a neighbour lets us use (about an acre) to stop it from getting overgrown. My stables are not fancy indoor barns - they are an old converted cow shed with plenty of fresh air coming through, I also have half partitions between the stables and no bars so that they can groom one another and interact quite happily. Our yard sits on a couple of acres in total which includes a fenced off 'paddock' type area. Every day all of mine go out of their stables for between 2 and 4 hours depending on the weather. 2 of them go in the little field that belongs to our neighbour and then the other 2 are just left loose in the yard with haynets tied up in various locations.

At the end of the day I would love to have stables which let out directly onto nice grazing that didn't get knee deep in winter and be able to leave the stable doors open so that they could choose to be in or out but I don't have that so I do the best that I can with what I do have.
 
I allow 24/7 turnout in winter -- we selected the highest available piece of land (in the hope the water would drain better) and have set the fenceline at an angle that discourages fence walking. The bit by the gate is totally trashed and that's the way it will be until we change fields I am sure, but the end of the field hold up nicely. It's muddy, but they still pick at grass. Most come in but some ponies stay out. Obviously only an option if you can throw all your horses out together -- ours live as a herd the rest of the year anyway.

It will look like a mud pit by March, then I'll open spring grazing and it will all dry up again. By next October the winter field will look like standing hay again and the gateways will be covered in grass and you'd never know it had been trashed to nothing earlier in the year.
 
Goldenstar said:
...the numerous skin conditions that you see in dirty field kept horses .
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My 'dirty field kept horse' - shock horror out 24/7 naked despite being clipped - have never had any skin condition. It is not turnout that causes skin conditions, it is over grooming and stripping their natural protection. But then I don't keep my horses in a manner just for my own convenience...

My horses winter paddock is left to rest during the summer and *shock horror* is always recovered enough to take a cut of hay off it, despite ending up a mud pit over winter.
 
MissTyc said:
It will look like a mud pit by March, then I'll open spring grazing and it will all dry up again. By next October the winter field will look like standing hay again and the gateways will be covered in grass and you'd never know it had been trashed to nothing earlier in the year.
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That's the point really - unless it is badly overstocked it will recover. I am often horrified at how mine looks by the end of winter but we do have to remember the pasture is for the benefit of the horses, not the other way round
 
The more I read these threads, the more I love my yard. I wouldn't stay anywhere where my horse couldn't get out for at least 8 hours a day in winter. I appreciate how hard it is though and am grateful to my YO for prioritising turnout over cash.

We have 24/7 turnout from mid-April until (normally) mid-November and then have them in overnight from Nov-April. They go out every day regardless of weather and can be turned out as early and brought in as late as we'd like. Mine are normally out 6.30am-6.30pm. The gateways can get a bit muddy, but within about 10m of the gate the grass is lovely and green and there's plenty to last them all winter without being supplemented with hay (other than when in overnight).

This year there's only 9 horses rather than the usual 12, so rather than splitting into 2 herds of 6 (after spending the summer on the hay fields all together) and having an 8 acre winter field each, they're going to stick together and rotate. This means they're still out 24/7 with no sign of them coming in and the grass is still growing. The plan is to let them graze their current field down to the level at which they'd normally come in, then move them to the other winter field and do the same to that and only then have them come in. I'm hoping to have my first lie in on Christmas morning for about 15 years this year! On the downside I might have to buy a heavyweight rug if they boys are out while full clipped and the weather gets cold! I could bring them in but both they and I will be much happier if they're out.

We sometimes moan as other yards in our area have theirs out by mid March and we have to wait another month but at this time of year I'm grateful for it as I'm not mucking out yet!
 
I have just moved my horses to another yard in order to allow them more turnout with better grass. However they are on clay so when we had all that rain last week they stayed in for one day! they also stayed in last week for one day as the hunt rode through the fields and I thought it would be safer than letting them hoon around and trash the field even more. The gate ways are muddy but will recover. We all do the best we can for our horses it isn't a competition as to who looks after their horse the best. We all have lives outside of horses and sometimes the horses just have to fit in :)
 
I moved from the Midlands where all year all day and often all night turnout was the norm to the North west. The area I now live in is on the edge of dark peak and very wet, very hilly and with clay soil and thin grass roots. The norm around here is no turnout in winter and yet it is a very rural area.

The yard I am on offers around 2 hours a day in groups on the only free draining fields over winter both for the horses and the lands sake. I used to think it was over the top until my old horse ripped his tendons 'playing' in the spring mud!

I only know of one or two yards locally that have more turnout over winter and they are not ones I would use for other reasons. Quite a culture shock and determined my choice for next horse after old boy was pts.
 
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lannerch said:
Agree But that daily turnout is not necessarily a field .

And to those that say if you can't find a yard with all year field turnout them you shouldn't keep one now your becoming just ridiculous.

I keep my horse to ride , how selfish he's also my pet and lives better than I do but fundamentally I have him to ride it is my hobby, which also means to me a livery yards facilities are more important to me than all year FIELD turnout.

If I couldn't ride I wouldn't have a horse that doesn't mean I get rid of him as soon as he's lame he's recently been on over a year of vetinerary enforced box rest I spent thousands on his rehab.

Also are all those who think it is so cruel vegans? A lot of the milk we get are now from barn kept dairy cows 365 days a year, the rest nearly all spend the winter months you've guessed it in a barn!
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Adequate turnout for me is a paddock large enough for a buck & a fart if the horses mood takes, an opportunity to socialise with its own species & grass/hay on the ground to graze.
 
unicornystar said:
LOL, I am sure he or she will, god forbid they get muddy!!!

I don't care how you keep yours, funny that you find it a "sweeping judgement" no-else has reacted as you have, guilt perhaps of feeling perhaps in a more perfect world your clean horse should get more time out?

Seriously if you have 15 acres for 5 horses (am I reading that wrong are there other liveries?) not sure what your turnout issues are.
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I don't have turn out issues I own my own place it's around fifteen acres down to grass .
I have to manage the land I have which is clay .
In some places that means the top soil is two inches below that it's red clay such good clay that part of our place was the clay pit that gave the clay for the tiles that where used to build the local village literally thousands and thousands of tons of well rotten muck has been put on the land with the thinnest top soil in the last twenty five years and it has improved but it seems it's my life's work improving the land .
I could not maintain it looking decent and pleasant for the horses with more than five who are stabled at night part of the year and get around three to four hours turnout on working days for part of the winter .
My next project is the building of a large hardstanding and a big openfronted shed within a solid fenced yard to give the horses more shelter , I am not helped by the fact we are at the top of a hill catching the prevailing west wind from one side and the wind straight from Siberia on the other .
The new shed should allow me to keep some of them out longer in winter it should solve the issue of feeding in the field which does just not work ATM .
I am in about the ideal situation ( even the windy location has advantages we rarely have terrible flys ) I can manage my horses as I wish .
But most people I know just can't they are doing the best they can with the livery that most meets their needs .
Cbmcts posts illustrates that people are already seeing what I was on about in my earlier posts that as the land nearer towns gets built on the pressure on livery will get worse .
I think mother of chickens had a point when she said fewer horses will be the ultimate result .
 
EQUIDAE said:
My 'dirty field kept horse' - shock horror out 24/7 naked despite being clipped - have never had any skin condition. It is not turnout that causes skin conditions, it is over grooming and stripping their natural protection. But then I don't keep my horses in a manner just for my own convenience...

My horses winter paddock is left to rest during the summer and *shock horror* is always recovered enough to take a cut of hay off it, despite ending up a mud pit over winter.
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That depends on where you are though-in this part of the world the growing season is too short for ground to recover to that extent from a mud pit. It might recover enough to graze but not take hay off. Also, someone mentioned high ground, up here you're as likely to have a bog on the top or side of the hill as at the bottom.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
That depends on where you are though-in this part of the world the growing season is too short for ground to recover to that extent from a mud pit. It might recover enough to graze but not take hay off. Also, someone mentioned high ground, up here you're as likely to have a bog on the top or side of the hill as at the bottom.
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Nonsense. If I chose to rest the field I could take two cuts. It grows back perfectly fine... And I am on wet hilly land with areas of marsh grass. The difference is that I manage my land - too few yard owners actually do this though.
 
EQUIDAE said:
Nonsense. If I chose to rest the field I could take two cuts. It grows back perfectly fine... And I am on wet hilly land with areas of marsh grass. The difference is that I manage my land - too few yard owners actually do this though.
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It's not 'nonsense' . We don't get two cuts of hay here but hey, you obviously know more about where I live than I do.
 
Goldenstar said:
My TB is not designed to stand in mud he is the result of years of selective breeding to run fast for three miles ,that's what he's designed for ,he's a man made creation that nature would never have come up with .

I don't consider myself guiltily of anything because my horse is bathed except helping to prevent him getting the numerous skin conditions that you see in dirty field kept horses .
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Bit of a sweeping comment there ! I have a field kept horse and he has never had a skin condition thank you, mud fever or any other ailment. Dirty yes but that's to be expected from an animal living out 24/7 How dare you generalise,,please think before you open your mouth with your scathing comments.

Oh and we have 2 fields which are rotated winter and summer with good drainage so he is not standing in a mud pit 24/7,
 
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The thing with grass is once it's out of forced agricultural production it varies widely from field to field let alone from place to place .
Even on my little place the grass varies one corner was a market garden during the war and it's very productive that three and bit acres has never been ploughed up since just after the war and it can easily sustain our horses all summer and into autumn and look beautiful if I give it a three week break mid summer .
The sacrifice field was barley when we arrived it's the ploughing that has exacerbated the top soil issues it will never fully recover .
People with clay land know that the grass will recover mantra is really not fully true if you pull red clay up into your top soil you will struggle with horse type use and will have to aggressively manage to repair things .
The winter I had all of my horses but one BF made an enormous difference to the winter field so that's one way of preserving pastures the best you can people on restricted grazing could think of in winter .
I would love to give my sacrifice field a years break but I even looked at buying another field however realistically paying 90k plus a huge fencing bill to rest a field made emotional not financial sense and I can buy the extra forage I use in March and April for along time before I have spent 90k.
It also keeps a break on my horse habit I know five is what this place will sustain ,more land more horses is I fear what would have happened.
 
For me and my horses it would be a no. I've been on a yard with restricted turnout and it made one particularly unhappy. So I left and found something which suited him better. He's now a dirty field kept horse ☺️
 
My friend and I have both recently moved from the same yard to different yards. Her yard has facilities to die for - indoor and outdoor schools, hot water wash room, solarium - everything except it's on heavy clay and turnout is restricted. They've been in for the past week but her horse will happily stand in all day and eat hay. I didn't move there because I know it wouldn't of suited MY horse. My horse likes to be turned out everyday. It doesn't have to be all day - if the weather is foul, she'll be happy to come in early.

The yard I went to has good facilities - an outdoor school, tackroom, personal storage, hot water if you boil the kettle! It has turnout everyday and suits MY horse perfectly. Everyone's different, as long as it suits, everyone's happy.
 
That's very true wiglet. I used to have a TB that certainly didn't believe that she should have to be in a stable ever regardless of any selective breeding to create her breed. In fact stabling distressed her so much (wouldn't eat or drink, just shook and ground her teeth) that it really wasn't kind to have her on anything bar 24/7 turnout. I'm sure that some reading this are thinking that I'm being over the top, but trust me, if you'd met her you'd know that I am simply being accurate.

I did find GS's comment about dirty field kept horses and skin conditions quite funny and that's coming from someone who has a horse that suffers from LV, which is a particularly nasty skin condition. He's actually done far better with the LV when kept out all the time and having his legs left totally alone, but then horses never read the rule books do they? That's the thing about sweeping statements (and horses), they tend to make fools of us all.

Anyhoo. All I can say is that I still think that all weather turnout areas should be used more, especially when yards have clay soil or fewer than ideal acres for the horses. I find FW's turnout area for her PPSM cob interesting. It's certainly made a huge difference to that cob's quality of life and reinforces my opinion that turnout doesn't have to always be on grass.
 
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