Livery yards and winter turnout?

willowblack said:
Morning all!

Our YO closes the fields during winter and turnout is confined to indoor school or one field, they go out for an hour a day give or take because they are rotated.

I have been there for 3 years, only went temporarily because I accidentally acquired too many ponies for the 2 and a bit acre field we have at home �� And have never used a livery yard before then.

Is this common place at livery yards?

Thank you x X
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We have twelve acres, a lot of that is on low lying ground not far from a stream and the other paddocks are on a slope and low lying ground so they all tend to get flooded in winter. They come off the big field about Sept/Oct (again depending on weather) and then we get the choice between sandpit or paddock, paddock being for as long as is feesible before it gets flooded again.

The sandpit is brilliant. There are two parts, each is about 15m x 12m separated from the other with electric fencing. Each horse goes in with its friend on the opposite side of the electric for one and a half to two hours per day. When they roll the sand is easily brushed out with a brush, it doesn't stain the legs, its clean although that too has water lying on top of it at times! There is a huge haynet put in the night before and each horse nibbles on it.

Its the best thing for them, as it gets them out of the mud. With only 12 acres the fields have to be protected for the following spring when they go out again. I know grass comes back really well, but it does get wet in those paddocks, although its nothing like the yard I came from previously.

My horse HAS to go out everyday and stretch his legs as he has arthritis and needs to be kept moving, over the last ten years before I left the last yard he only stopped in (other than when on box rest) for three days due to bad weather.
 
My yard operates restricted turnout in winter (November - March). In wet weather the fields are closed, but the horses are turned into the indoor school in small groups. In fine weather, they are turned out in both the indoor school (small groups whilst being mucked out, so an hour or so) and then turned out into the top paddock, again, in small groups for a few hours. We are on clay.

My horse is ridden for up to an hour 6 days per week (yard is closed on Mondays).

The fields are re-seeded in spring and maintained all year round. In summer, we are allowed 24/7 turnout if we wish, but the majority are out during the day/in at night or in during the day/out at night.

Is it ideal? No. But the yard suits me and my horse in every other way. We are happy - and my horse is the type to let you know if he is unhappy!

Call me cruel if you like.
 
Interesting comments with the general thoughts being yard owners should provide 12 month turnout.

Assuming the majority of people commenting are on DIY. What would you consider an appropriate weekly charge for DIY with 12 month turnout to be ? I appreciate that some yards will have schools etc, but in general what is considered a fair diy charge. No hay etc provided, just your box water/power, storage and no or little restriction on grazing.
 
EQUIDAE said:
My 'dirty field kept horse' - shock horror out 24/7 naked despite being clipped - have never had any skin condition. It is not turnout that causes skin conditions, it is over grooming and stripping their natural protection. But then I don't keep my horses in a manner just for my own convenience...

My horses winter paddock is left to rest during the summer and *shock horror* is always recovered enough to take a cut of hay off it, despite ending up a mud pit over winter.
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Princess16 said:
Bit of a sweeping comment there ! I have a field kept horse and he has never had a skin condition thank you, mud fever or any other ailment. Dirty yes but that's to be expected from an animal living out 24/7 How dare you generalise,,please think before you open your mouth with your scathing comments.

Oh and we have 2 fields which are rotated winter and summer with good drainage so he is not standing in a mud pit 24/7,
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Totally agree!! I was accused of being judgemental by Goldenstar then this!! Never had any mud fever with my tb or other horses!!!! never had skin conditions, because I don't wash them within an inch of their life all the time!
 
unicornystar said:
Totally agree!! I was accused of being judgemental by Goldenstar then this!! Never had any mud fever with my tb or other horses!!!! never had skin conditions, because I don't wash them within an inch of their life all the time!
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Mudfever is down to the luck of the draw sometimes though. I only washed the feet because I needed to put keratex on his hooves. I brushed the mud off. I have mud fever in both back legs.. but it looks like my horse is going to be a little bit precious. I was very careful not to wash off his legs as well! but please, if someone chooses to groom or wash their horse, then that is their choice and it becomes somewhat patronising to read the self congratulatory comments about how some people choose not to. I don't judge either way. I keep my horse the same way as I have previous horses and this is the first one who got mudfever as well..
 
Faracat said:
That's very true wiglet. I used to have a TB that certainly didn't believe that she should have to be in a stable ever regardless of any selective breeding to create her breed. In fact stabling distressed her so much (wouldn't eat or drink, just shook and ground her teeth) that it really wasn't kind to have her on anything bar 24/7 turnout. I'm sure that some reading this are thinking that I'm being over the top, but trust me, if you'd met her you'd know that I am simply being accurate.

I did find GS's comment about dirty field kept horses and skin conditions quite funny and that's coming from someone who has a horse that suffers from LV, which is a particularly nasty skin condition. He's actually done far better with the LV when kept out all the time and having his legs left totally alone, but then horses never read the rule books do they? That's the thing about sweeping statements (and horses), they tend to make fools of us all.

Anyhoo. All I can say is that I still think that all weather turnout areas should be used more, especially when yards have clay soil or fewer than ideal acres for the horses. I find FW's turnout area for her PPSM cob interesting. It's certainly made a huge difference to that cob's quality of life and reinforces my opinion that turnout doesn't have to always be on grass.
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Why is it funny ?
All horses are different all yards are different and importantly all soils vary and if you are taking about mud fever the soil type is key .
Soil which contains very sharp silicates will cause many more issues particularity in mud fevers with a fungal element .
Fatty who came to me with a epic skin problem because he's immune suppressed does best bathed at least one a week and we keep his legs clipped between September and spring.
It took me time to work out how to manage him but I sussed him now .
I don't do dirty horses ever ,winter or summer turned out or kept in. The only horses I allow a bit of dirt are on holiday horses in winter we probably groom them just every other day ,but I do avoid having horses out of work in winter because I don't think they take enough exercise outside in winter to stay in optimal health.
 
I pay 25 a week for this

AdorableAlice said:
Interesting comments with the general thoughts being yard owners should provide 12 month turnout.

Assuming the majority of people commenting are on DIY. What would you consider an appropriate weekly charge for DIY with 12 month turnout to be ? I appreciate that some yards will have schools etc, but in general what is considered a fair diy charge. No hay etc provided, just your box water/power, storage and no or little restriction on grazing.
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AdorableAlice said:
Interesting comments with the general thoughts being yard owners should provide 12 month turnout.

Assuming the majority of people commenting are on DIY. What would you consider an appropriate weekly charge for DIY with 12 month turnout to be ? I appreciate that some yards will have schools etc, but in general what is considered a fair diy charge. No hay etc provided, just your box water/power, storage and no or little restriction on grazing.
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£100 PCM for the above. Its is up to us liveries to decide when/how often to bring in depending on the weather and how our field is looking. My sec a shares a field with a connie and it is currently not too bad other than a bit boggy at the gate and the spot where we feed hay. It helps that we are at the top of a hill. We still have around a third of the whole field sectioned off behind electric tape and will start gradually giving them more grass as it get colder - so probably this weekend! Our 2 live out most of the time but will come in to stables when needed, so overnight if it is really miserable or if it has been constant rain for a couple of days to give them a break and a chance to dry out.
 
A friend offering farm type livery is £25 .
The liverys have to sort everything themselves if they don't like the fences ( mostly I would not ) they have to provide their own electric fenced to the inside and some have no water there are more stables than horses so I am not sure how that works . He does not provide bedding or forage but he will sell them bid bale haylage which is nice quality .
No school or any small area to work
but access to good hacking but with some very nasty gates ( you would get good at mounting and dismounting )but it's genuine 24/7 turnout on an organic farm so good unimproved grass for horses .
Another friend does DIY no assistance of any type available nice stables £47 a week includes haylage and straw ,outdoor school great riding they do close paddocks in the wet but allow turnout in a big field ( about fifteen perhaps twenty acres ) interesting most clients choose to keep in rather than use a big field and most of the horses are not ridden it surprises me they don't want the bigger turnout it's a lovely field .
 
AdorableAlice said:
Interesting comments with the general thoughts being yard owners should provide 12 month turnout.

Assuming the majority of people commenting are on DIY. What would you consider an appropriate weekly charge for DIY with 12 month turnout to be ? I appreciate that some yards will have schools etc, but in general what is considered a fair diy charge. No hay etc provided, just your box water/power, storage and no or little restriction on grazing.
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I think that there are many YO who give no thought to providing TO in winter, mainly due to cost, but sometimes it's purely too much effort and when 90% of surrounding yards don't bother either why should they??? Also many liveries accept this and also accept the YO thinking of them as a hindrance rather than a client who provides income.

I would happily pay £50-£60 pw for DIY with winter turnout, but I know many wouldn't/couldn't do this. There is a private yard near to me, the land is marshy/clay soil. They have put a track down around one of the largest fields, just rubble and hoggin. Then back filled with the soil they removed. Their horses go out on this through the winter. It saves their land and gives the horses some turnout. In very bad weather they turnout in their school. It didn't cost much, but is very useful. I wish other yards would adopt the same, but I have found that YO are very reluctant to spend on maintenance of land.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Interesting comments with the general thoughts being yard owners should provide 12 month turnout.

Assuming the majority of people commenting are on DIY. What would you consider an appropriate weekly charge for DIY with 12 month turnout to be ? I appreciate that some yards will have schools etc, but in general what is considered a fair diy charge. No hay etc provided, just your box water/power, storage and no or little restriction on grazing.
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I do provide 12 months turnout but it will be restricted to an extent in the worst weather, the odd day in never two consecutive days, sometimes coming in at lunchtime, my liveries are a mix of part and assisted so I do have a degree of control that does not come with total DIY which suits me and my liveries, I will never offer full DIY having had a few bad experiences mainly to do with a total disregard for the land.

It costs money to maintain the land, more if it is used in the winter, I have about 16 acres for around 10-12 mainly ponies / smaller horses most unshod, if I only got £25 per week for 6 of my boxes/ use of fields it would barely cover normal expenses, I would prefer to leave a couple of boxes empty at that rate.
I charge £40 for assisted, they get a box, use of a field and arena, I feed am, turn out, bring in and give hay if they come in early or spend the day in, my DIY owners both work odd hours/ shifts so it suits them to not have to come twice a day every day, the others are part liveries so are done Mon- Fri by me.

In reality livery is generally underpriced and undervalued, in many areas if people had to pay the true cost horse ownership would be out of reach of many people, there cannot be many yards that make a decent return on the capital investment and most are probably like myself run to cover the expenses of our own horses rather than as a stand alone business, my main income will be from selling the property at some time in the future as land prices continue to rise.
 
Embo said:
My horse is ridden for up to an hour 6 days per week (yard is closed on Mondays).

QUOTE]

Going off on a slight tangent here, but closed on Mondays? I am curious, is it a Riding Centre? That I can understand, but closed as in closed, no owners on it?
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The issue is that although people are taught how to ride they are not taught how to manage grassland. Even on clay soil if the fields are properly drained and maintained and not overgrazed then they will survive the winter and provide winter grazing for the horses. The real issue is that most yards have too many horses for the type of grazing they have. In addition where there is restricted grazing or turnout then the horses should simply be ridden more to avoid them standing in all day. i.e find sharers that will hack out your horse.
 
I've never been on (or known of) a yard that strict on turnout. One that I used to be on had a field rota in the winter but they divided the horses into set turnout groups and each group got 3 full days out a week, which I could live with.

Where we are at the moment we have daily turnout year round but the fields are a disaster as they've been over-grazed and under-maintained for years, so ours are stabled overnight all year round and we have to put hay/haylage out for them all winter.

ETA - on the cost point, where we are now is £100pcm with no yard management as such, it's full DIY and the liveries just get on with it. YO not involved at all - we do all our own fencing etc. Where I had Jazz before was £32pw with 24 hour summer turnout and daily turnout in winter, again we were full DIY but there was a YM and the farmer YO dealt with maintenance.
 
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:eek:As per normal on this forum, this post has appeared to be turning into a bitching fest!! Yes people are allowed to have their own opinions but not at the detriment of others.

Why are people so judgemental of others? Why is it always the same few people, time and time again?

Mud fever is caused by the bacterial agent dermatophilus congolensis and can happen to any horse at any time. Yes its usually found in muddy fields but it is also found living on the skin of horses and develops into mud fever by prolonged wet conditions, not necessarily mud, long grass can cause it too. It can be caused by abrasions on the skin through sand as well as dirt which allows the bacteria in. Cattle sheep and goats are also affected!

So its not always a case of owners being negligent in turning horses out into thick mud paddocks!
 
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I've recently taken over a livery yard. It's a small yard with only three ladies, all with more than one horse/pony. Each has stables and an allocated field. The liveries are free to use their field 24/7/365, but if it gets trashed it is them who suffer in the long run. I haven't got stables as my TB won't stable so mine are all in the school at the moment, due to the state of the fields. I would rather horses be out if possible, whether my own or the liveries, but sometimes the weather dictates otherwise. My liveries have all been here years and are really good at keeping their fields in good condition, so I am happy. Mine are the only ones out today as the liveries have decided against it, but everyone is happy, which is the main thing :)
 
The area around my parent's house is very bad for turnout, which I think is a combination of heavy clay and heavy rainfall. The amount of winter turnout on offer varies, but in each case the land gets absolutely trashed over winter. One of the yard owners has all weather turnout paddocks and has just put in a track system (don't get too excited, they aren't amazing quality!) and one allows turnout in the school after Christmas when her winter fields get very bad. My sister and I rotated around these yards when we were kids and they were far from ideal, but not much else you can do when you're too young to drive. We did manage okay, when we were on the yard with the all weather paddocks our ponies went in the paddock 9am-12, then ridden in the afternoon after school. If it was consistently dry they did get field turnout there, it just depended entirely on how much rain we got. Likewise on the yard when the arena got used for turnout, my mare was at least always out of the stable twice a day. That yard was much better because the horses had 24/7 turnout for much longer (March to November if if was fairly dry) and the fields were usually fine until January, so it tended to just be January/ February when they were limited to turnout in the school. There were other yards nearby, but they would have been worse options in regard to turnout.

We still keep our horses in that area, but as we (my sister and I) can both drive we've been able to go further afield to where the turnout is better. So we have 24/7/ 365 now which is lovely, although we do bring them in if the weather is too bad as in our search for better ground we've had to go higher up, and it's quite exposed where we are atm! But on the plus side, it is nearly December and we still have too much grass!!
 
AA, it wouldn't make financial sense for me to offer the DIY you describe for any less than £50/week. There's a decent but not floodlit 40m x 20m school.

I know how much I paid to set up my small yard (eek), and how much it costs to maintain it (double eek).

No one would pay more than £25/week, though, as £20 pw seems to be the norm in these parts.

Immediate disconnect.
 
Not sure who you think is being slagged off all the time Applecart .
One poster said that there was no excuse for horses not being turned out eight hours which I thought was silly because I can think of dozens and dozens of reasons why a horse could not be out for eight hours a day everyday ,but they where not aiming it at anyone in particular .
I think the interesting thing here is how people think we get round the fact that land is expensive ,many yards don't have enough and what you do about it .
 
Tiddlypom said:
AA, it wouldn't make financial sense for me to offer the DIY you describe for any less than £50/week. There's a decent but not floodlit 40m x 20m school.

I know how much I paid to set up my small yard (eek), and how much it costs to maintain it (double eek).

No one would pay more than £25/week, though, as £20 pw seems to be the norm in these parts.


Immediate disconnect.
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Makes me wonder why people bother offering livery at all, it cannot be for the money. For all those who think livery yard owners are "greedy", if they were to charge enough to really make it pay there would be a significant number of people who would simply not be able to afford to have a horse.
 
Y
Cortez said:
Makes me wonder why people bother offering livery at all, it cannot be for the money. For all those who think livery yard owners are "greedy", if they were to charge enough to really make it pay there would be a significant number of people who would simply not be able to afford to have a horse.
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I agree - though through people wanting cheap livery yo have to compromise on quality. If I could find £50 a week 24/7 turnout I wouldn't keep mine at home.
 
Cortez said:
Makes me wonder why people bother offering livery at all, it cannot be for the money. For all those who think livery yard owners are "greedy", if they were to charge enough to really make it pay there would be a significant number of people who would simply not be able to afford to have a horse.
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I "think" on my yard it was a case of diversifying to make use of redundant land and buildings when the livestock went. As well as working as an agricultural consultant our YO has the livery business, 2 holiday cottages that are permanently booked as they are fantastic and some arable crops. He has created a market for his hay and straw with the liveries and IIRC our local council were doing kind of reduced rates for livery yards due to lack of them in the area. In his case I would imagine a profit but could not be solely relied upon as a form of income, it is more a side line.
 
Enfys said:
Going off on a slight tangent here, but closed on Mondays? I am curious, is it a Riding Centre? That I can understand, but closed as in closed, no owners on it?
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No, not a riding centre. Just a livery yard! YO lives on-site and the yard is 'closed' so one day per week, no constant traffic in and out. It's unusual, yes, but the horses are taken care of just like any other day (staff still work etc). Bank holidays are 'open' days, so it's not the strictest rule. If you needed to come up for whatever reason, you'd never be told 'no'. We have no restrictions any other day. Can come and go as we please.

It wouldn't suit some people, but it suits us just fine :) it's a compromise for a lovely yard and lovely YO.
 
Cortez said:
Makes me wonder why people bother offering livery at all, it cannot be for the money. For all those who think livery yard owners are "greedy", if they were to charge enough to really make it pay there would be a significant number of people who would simply not be able to afford to have a horse.
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Spot on, as was Be Positive's reply, and a very real reason why many yards do not do DIY.

Let use the simple figure of £100pcm, so £1200 a year.

Post and rail is £10/12 a metre. Dump of hardcore, top dress planings and the digger to do a wet gateway £350. Contractor in at spring time to harrow and rectify. Fert. Replace the snapped off gate post which would not have happened had the gate not been left swinging in the wind. £80. Bit of creosote splashed around the stables, water bill, power bill, chewed stable door, muck heap spread or remove etc etc.
 
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