Livery Yards can't bill wormers??

NewSeeker said:
Whilst it is responsible to ensure horses are wormed, I'm concerned that some YOs may dictate a compulsory 'one size fits all' method, rather than treating the horses as per their individual needs, bearing in mind that worming does not eradicate worms from all horses and pasture completely but rather controls them. Another concern is whether all YOs actually have the knowledge to choose the correct worming regimes or egg count programme that will actually cover all parasites throughout the year. I don't want to offend any YOs who are competent, as I'm sure many are, but I have come across some YOs who use rather old-fashioned incorrect worming regimes i.e. the same product twice a year full stop and the liveries just have to go along with it regardless, whilst the YO makes a profit. I know selling/re-selling wormers is illegal, but would like to know is advising on/dictating a regime also illegal?
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Whoops, I mean't to type 'I know unlicensed selling/re-selling of wormers is illegal'.
 
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putasocinit said:
I think it is wrong for livery yards to buy wormers and then pass the bill on to the livery and my reasons are as follows:

1) livery could find a cheaper wormer
2) some horses due to size may need x 2 wormers, livery yard on supplied x 1
3) the type of wormer may not agree or be in context with what horse was previously wormed with.

I think whilst livery yards should have a worming programme in place it should be a mutual decision for each livery to supply their own type of wormer, produce the packaging after worming if necessary and the yard worm together on a specified date.
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As I said earlier in the thread, I buy wormers and worm my liveries and my own horses at the same time, in accordance with my worming programme, and then bill the liveries for the wormers used on their horses. I can get wormer much more cheaply than my liveries could if they bought one at a time for their own horses as I buy it in bulk which means I get a fab deal. I also charge for the wormer used, so if a pony only needs half a tube, I charge half the price of that tube, and the owner of the giant who needs two tubes gets charged for two tube.

I worm all new liveries on the day they arrive with a certain type of wormer which is a short-acting one. They then all get done at the same time. Varying wormers works well for preventing the parasites from building up an immunity to one certain type, so changing horses to a new brand of wormer isn't a problem.
 
Legally you can't as you aren't qualified to sell it, I believe there are a couple that this doesn't apply to though. It's not a cheap piece of paper hence why little feed shops don't tend to bother. We got round this though. I think it was by getting payment for the feed/worming and not the wormer itself but not 100%
 
I once bought a wormer from Decathlon, who are licensed to sell it. The assistant selling it to me told me she was able to sell it but not allowed to advise on which one to use.
 
NewSeeker said:
Whilst it is responsible to ensure horses are wormed, I'm concerned that some YOs may dictate a compulsory 'one size fits all' method, rather than treating the horses as per their individual needs, bearing in mind that worming does not eradicate worms from all horses and pasture completely but rather controls them. Another concern is whether all YOs actually have the knowledge to choose the correct worming regimes or egg count programme that will actually cover all parasites throughout the year. I don't want to offend any YOs who are competent, as I'm sure many are, but I have come across some YOs who use rather old-fashioned incorrect worming regimes i.e. the same product twice a year full stop and the liveries just have to go along with it regardless, whilst the YO makes a profit. I know selling/re-selling wormers is illegal, but would like to know is advising on/dictating a regime also illegal?
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I purchase wormers when required and administer to my liveries (none are DIY) - and this is written into livery contracts although I may have to reword it in accordance with Borderreiver's post.

I certainly don't use a "one size fits all" approach. All new arrivals are wormed regardless as I'm afraid I know not everyone is truthfull or fully conversant with their horse's previous worming. They are then worm counted to ensure the worming has been effective and if so go on to the same programme as the rest of the yard ie regular worm counts and worming for tapeworm and encysted red worm at the appropriate times of year - obviously any horses with worm counts showing a need for worming are wormed and a subsequent worm count done again. All horses are weight taped and wormed according to their body weight and the wormer charge reflects this ie half / one / more than one tube of wormer. I get a discounted rate from Westgate under their commercial yard scheme and buy wormers in bulk as cheaply as I can. I really doubt an individual could worm / worm count more ecconomically.
 
What is the difference in the yard owner bulk buying off the internet and liveries buying their own off the internet? NONE! No advice is given, no questions asked, people just buy what they think they need or the cheapest (if they are not knowledgable enough to understand the different chemicals and their actions). This undermines the whole SQP, POM-VPS system, and i wonder why I spent so much money and effort on obtaining the qualification.

Surely the billing of wormers is not an issue if the animals are placed in their care/custody and yard owner has sought advice from an SQP/vet.
 
Wagtail said:
Interesting. I, like Starzaan buy in bulk online and then charge the liveries the cost. Everyone saves that way. I always shop around for the cheapest price, so don't understand the comment made suggesting YO's don't have incentive to do this. They have their own horses too, surely?
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It's a nice service to offer but beware - if you pi** off a livery client and they decide to give you a hard time, you ARE breaking the law!
 
Here is the info again as this is an old thread. YO are allowed to buy wormers for the horses in their care. From the VMD:

The retail supply of VPS medicines by a livery yard owner through a tack shop or directly to livery clients is not permitted, unless the yard owner is an SQP operating from approved premises. However, we have accepted that a livery yard owner can purchase VPS products on behalf of the livery clients for administration to those clients’ animals. To that end we consider that the livery contract/T & Cs between the yard owner and livery clients should clearly state that the livery yard owner will purchase VPS wormers on behalf of, and in agreement with, the clients and recover the costs of those products through the livery charges.
 
EventingMum said:
I purchase wormers when required and administer to my liveries (none are DIY) - and this is written into livery contracts although I may have to reword it in accordance with Borderreiver's post.

I certainly don't use a "one size fits all" approach. All new arrivals are wormed regardless as I'm afraid I know not everyone is truthfull or fully conversant with their horse's previous worming. They are then worm counted to ensure the worming has been effective and if so go on to the same programme as the rest of the yard ie regular worm counts and worming for tapeworm and encysted red worm at the appropriate times of year - obviously any horses with worm counts showing a need for worming are wormed and a subsequent worm count done again. All horses are weight taped and wormed according to their body weight and the wormer charge reflects this ie half / one / more than one tube of wormer. I get a discounted rate from Westgate under their commercial yard scheme and buy wormers in bulk as cheaply as I can. I really doubt an individual could worm / worm count more ecconomically.
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That sounds like a great worming programme, I would be happy with that, it is what I would chose for my horse myself.
 
Choccie said:
What is the difference in the yard owner bulk buying off the internet and liveries buying their own off the internet? NONE! No advice is given, no questions asked, people just buy what they think they need or the cheapest (if they are not knowledgable enough to understand the different chemicals and their actions). This undermines the whole SQP, POM-VPS system, and i wonder why I spent so much money and effort on obtaining the qualification.

Surely the billing of wormers is not an issue if the animals are placed in their care/custody and yard owner has sought advice from an SQP/vet.
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Am I correct in thinking it's legal to buy whatever wormer you prefer for your own horse, but illegal to choose and buy with the intent to supply other people, without a license and without being an SQP, as by chosing the wormer for them you are technically advising them to use that particular one?
 
NewSeeker said:
Am I correct in thinking it's legal to buy whatever wormer you prefer for your own horse, but illegal to choose and buy with the intent to supply other people, without a license and without being an SQP, as by chosing the wormer for them you are technically advising them to use that particular one?
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My point is not about being legal or illegal, but obtaining advice so the equine world doesn't end up with a resistance problem like there is in sheep. There are no new horse wormers coming to the market. Moxidectin has been around for many years now and is heavily relied upon and often over used. If we continually pump unecessary quanities of these chemicals into horses and end up with resistant strains of worms then we will struggle to manage worm burdens. There was a new wormer launched for sheep and couple of years ago, but to try to ensure resistance to this product does not occur it is only available from a vet and it is not cheap. I was told at the launch that there was no research being carried out into it's potential use in horses.

Worming is not about choosing but about prescribing (hence the expensive and comprehensive training, examinations and CPD that SQP's do). If you go to the doctor with an infection he will probably prescribe you antibiotics, of which there are many types (like wormers), but he will prescribe the most appropriate one for your condition.

The yard owner should not be prescribing (or advising) a wormer for your horse, but consulting and SQP or vet on your behalf and they prescribe it. If you have placed your horse on livery and therefore it is in the custody of a livery yard owner/manager i would hope that you have chosen carefully and therefore your owner/manager is sensible enough to take such advice. My yard manager is not advised by me, but by a vet, and i have not had any reason to question her worm control programme to date.
 
Choccie said:
My point is not about being legal or illegal, but obtaining advice so the equine world doesn't end up with a resistance problem like there is in sheep. There are no new horse wormers coming to the market. Moxidectin has been around for many years now and is heavily relied upon and often over used. If we continually pump unecessary quanities of these chemicals into horses and end up with resistant strains of worms then we will struggle to manage worm burdens. There was a new wormer launched for sheep and couple of years ago, but to try to ensure resistance to this product does not occur it is only available from a vet and it is not cheap. I was told at the launch that there was no research being carried out into it's potential use in horses.

Worming is not about choosing but about prescribing (hence the expensive and comprehensive training, examinations and CPD that SQP's do). If you go to the doctor with an infection he will probably prescribe you antibiotics, of which there are many types (like wormers), but he will prescribe the most appropriate one for your condition.

The yard owner should not be prescribing (or advising) a wormer for your horse, but consulting and SQP or vet on your behalf and they prescribe it. If you have placed your horse on livery and therefore it is in the custody of a livery yard owner/manager i would hope that you have chosen carefully and therefore your owner/manager is sensible enough to take such advice. My yard manager is not advised by me, but by a vet, and i have not had any reason to question her worm control programme to date.
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Well put it this way, if I'm not happy that it is an appropriately advised regime I'm not going to inflict it on my horse. Thanks so much for the lengthy explanation.
 
Much truth in what Choccie says for sure. We have been trying to get folk to use fewer wormers, but only the correct and necessary ones, for years. There are many good, well informed YOs who take advice and really know what they are doing. There are others who need more support but are willing to adapt and learn. Then there are others. It is very difficult to get through to some and to emphasise that we all have to take action on how we worm our horses and not live in the past.
 
Forgot to add, I'm on DIY livery and responsible for the care and welfare of my horse according to the contract, but another person who keeps her horse here suggested that we have a yard worming programme and the YO has volunteered to take charge of it.
 
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Newseeker, i did a year on a DIY yard (before i became an SQP) and we had a designated person who took on the worming programme and did a lot of research and was in regular contact with Westgate as we worm counted all summer and only wormed accordingly. Perhaps you could suggest something similar. I would not be happy if the designated person just picked up a few leaflets and did their own thing. They need to gather a lot of info on each horse i,e age (foals & youngstock can present different problems eg ascarids), condition (wormers such as Moxidectin have a long interval as they are stored in body fat and therefore are not suitable for severely underweight animals). As others have posted it is not a 'one size fits all' problem that can be solved from a pretty booklet with fancy charts.

Also I hear many reports, on here, of this wormer caused my horse to colic, be gassy, go off food, loose water droppings etc. The designated person needs to report any adverse reactions to the supplier of the wormer, so that the VMD can be informed and the product/batch monitored and any appropriate action taken. Often it is the wormer doing it's job and these side effects become more apparent when there is a high worm burden and if the horse is managed correctly from there on the side effects may not re-occur, but some people are refusing to use these wormers again, and potentially putting their horses at risk of worm damage.

This is a suject that frustrates me as i think the drug companies supply horse owners enough information to worry them about the consequences of not worming, but not enough info on how to manage a worming programme without pumping their product in periodically (i.e the Equest year pack idea does not include any worm counts). This is where the SQP is supposed to bridge the gap but there is no requirement conversation with an SQP with online purchases, so the system fails, and in the end fails the horse! Sorry rant over.
 
Choccie said:
Newseeker, i did a year on a DIY yard (before i became an SQP) and we had a designated person who took on the worming programme and did a lot of research and was in regular contact with Westgate as we worm counted all summer and only wormed accordingly. Perhaps you could suggest something similar. I would not be happy if the designated person just picked up a few leaflets and did their own thing. They need to gather a lot of info on each horse i,e age (foals & youngstock can present different problems eg ascarids), condition (wormers such as Moxidectin have a long interval as they are stored in body fat and therefore are not suitable for severely underweight animals). As others have posted it is not a 'one size fits all' problem that can be solved from a pretty booklet with fancy charts.

Also I hear many reports, on here, of this wormer caused my horse to colic, be gassy, go off food, loose water droppings etc. The designated person needs to report any adverse reactions to the supplier of the wormer, so that the VMD can be informed and the product/batch monitored and any appropriate action taken. Often it is the wormer doing it's job and these side effects become more apparent when there is a high worm burden and if the horse is managed correctly from there on the side effects may not re-occur, but some people are refusing to use these wormers again, and potentially putting their horses at risk of worm damage.

This is a suject that frustrates me as i think the drug companies supply horse owners enough information to worry them about the consequences of not worming, but not enough info on how to manage a worming programme without pumping their product in periodically (i.e the Equest year pack idea does not include any worm counts). This is where the SQP is supposed to bridge the gap but there is no requirement conversation with an SQP with online purchases, so the system fails, and in the end fails the horse! Sorry rant over.
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Thanks again this is excellent information. I was actually asked if I would be willing to take charge of the worming programme by this other livery person, but I declined as I have a medical background and understand the implications and realised I am not suitably qualified to take it on and did not want to be responsible for seeking advice on and making decisions about worming a large number of other people's horses.
 
Because we are DIY liveries, the intention is for the yard owner to devise the worming plan, we give her the money for the wormers and she will order them only after we have all given her our money, but we will administer them to our individual horses ourselves. I don't know if she will suggest worm counts - I'm hoping so, but we will all have to agree to any plan beforehand.
 
Worm counts are definatly the way forward .
I have always wormed far less than the vets advised ( in the old days ) and it turned out I was worming far more than I needed to .
Apart from doing for tapeworms and now and again for encysted worms the only horses I have had to worm since I went onto worn counts are new ones and they seem to take a few months perhaps a year to come down to near to zero or zero
Worming counting is a fab way to do it.
 
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