Livery Yards, Horse Welfare and the Law

[bexwarren24]

This is the whole of Section 4 but I do not know if there are any subsequent amendments. The legislation only sets out what the intention is. It looks like its written to be a catch all to me so there is less cahnce for someon eto wriggle out of responsibility. I work a lot with waste legislation and although I do not know much about this particular legislation I don't think from this you could categorically say a YO was responsible for one of their clients horses DIY or full livery - it would depend on the facts of each case. These are the bare bones and usually case law has to be used to determine how they should be interpreted. Any Judge would look at all the facts including any government guidance on the issues to determine where any fault lay. It would not be in the interests of any prosecuting body to pursue a case against a yard owner or anyone else unless they have a very good case.

With a DIY yard in particular I think it would very much depend on the contract and the level of control the YO takes. If you saw a horse starving to death every day you visited the yard then you could have done something about it and by checking the yard you are taking some sort of responsibility. But if you rent out your fields and never visit them then I think it would be difficult to prove you had any responsibility for the animal or are "in charge of it"

Have any YO been prosecuted - if so what was the outcome?

I think you have sumed up what I have heard from my animal welfare solicitor friend but in proper legal terms.

He has succesfully defended YO's in welfare cases but the RSPCA will still try and prosecute you for it as the act is so ropey.

Am I also right in thinking that case law comes about from trials in county courts or higher? I am sure my friend said to me that alot of the problems with this act is that because the cases are heard in magistrates courts there is no real precedent to follow.

I think the long and short is that as a YO you could be liable but would have to go to a court room to arguee it out. I would also think that as someone who runs a yard you are classed as more of "a proffesional" then the average peprson.

 

[brigantia]

I'm not an expert on the legal issues, but every yard owner I've encountered would intervene if they thought the livery wasn't doing right by the horse. They would intervene LONG before that horse became a welfare issue. Most horses don't go to wrack and ruin overnight.

I've known YOs having serious Come to Jesus talks with liveries who they felt weren't living up to their horse care duties. I've also seen YOs buy the horses off said liveries and sell them on to more responsible people. Even on a DIY yard the health and welfare of the horses on the yard reflects the YOs management and no self-respecting YO wants a neglected horse on their yard.

 

[fuggly]

someone told me today that this act is now being put through and licensing is imminent , can anyone confirm this ??

 

[Cuffey]

someone told me today that this act is now being put through and licensing is imminent , can anyone confirm this ??

The legislation is ready prepared and has been for some time and if it goes forward (Gov decision) it is likely to be in Scotland first

 

[FairyLights]

Its about time all livery yards were licensed, should stop a lot of the black economy for one thing,and hopefully the legislation will mean suitable accommodation for the horses, I've seen large horses in 8ft x8ft boxes at one place.

 

[fjordhorsefan]

What's the position on a YO neglecting the horses they have on full livery (i.e. ignoring owners instructions for care and not providing promised services)? I have searched and found this thread as the closest one to what I want, but not actually what I want.

Can anyone advise?

 

[rockysmum]

I know its nothing to do with horses but a farmer where I used to live ended up in jail for a few months.

I dont think it was prosecuted under any animal welfare act, it was because he was the landlord and had allowed something illegal to happen on his property.

He rented a barn to some members of the Asian community and they used it as an illegal slaughterhouse.

It was reported in the papers, I will see if I can find it.

 

[fjordhorsefan]

Thanks. I wish there was some regulation to prevent numpties from setting up as YO's and taking full liveries when they are not fit to care for their own animals, let alone someone else's :-(

If there is such a thing, please let me know!

 

[scally]

I totally agree with Freshman Livery Yards need to be regulated.

I have to compete with a yard down the road, not paying business rates, tax etc that can undercut me by £15 per week because of this. You then go to someone with 3 stables doing schooling livery not declaring a penny, doesnt pay staff properly, no insurance, fire regs etc in place then people remove horses due to "issues". If you look at boarding kennels the cost is pretty much the same the whole country, they are all on a level playing field, proper channels to complain, contracts in place, standard of care etc etc, this is what is needed and liveries need to pay a fair price for these facilities and policies to be in place.

As for the question about YOs being responsible, its tough, if you feed and water a horse the charities will not get involved, alerting a charity they can take a long time to respond as there are a lot of equines needing urgent help, if you feed it out of your own pocket on a £15 a week DIY livery how long can a lot of YOs cover the cost not many everyone is feeling the pinch, hence regualtion, policies, contracts and line of responsiblity needs to be in place.

I dont have DIYs so dont have this problem and one reason why I wont.

 

[Cuffey]

Quote from Code of Practice for Welfare of Horses Ponies and Donkeys
http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13334-cop-horse-091204.pdf

''If an owner leaves an
animal in the care of another person, it is the
owner’s duty to ensure the keeper is competent
and has the necessary authority to act in
an emergency.''

 

[Holly Hocks]

I agree with Freshman that livery yards should be licenced. Boarding kennels have to be licenced, so why not livery yards? I think they should all have a minimum standard to reach in order to get a licence. They should have to prove adequate grazing for the number of horses, well fenced pasture and adequate sized stabling. I also think they should only have a licence for the number of horses that the pasture can sustain to prevent farmers trying to put several horses on small areas of grazing because it's easy money for them.

 

[FRESHMAN]

Licensing livery yards is the only way forwards. With proper regulations regarding standards etc.
I can not understand why any YO would argue that prices would have to go up, & on the other hand complain that they worked 365 days a year & still only made £4000.00 profit in a whole year. That is less than £77 per week! Even a 16 yr old apprentice gets £97.50 per week for 37.5 hrs & 28 days paid holiday. Oh plus training from someone highly qualified.
Providing it is done properly everyone will be regulated, why should a small yard have to close? The biggest area of complaint & injury to both horse & rider is the yard that does not have to answer to anyone. How many times do we read my YO does not fix the fence, our fence is wire & hanging loose for horses to get tangled in. Dangerous bits of machinery left around. Got a leaky stable. The electrics dont work properly. My Boy got injured. But 9 times out of 10 people cope with all these situations until something happens. When it does the owner often has a large Vet bill or worse still a horse that is pts due to its injuries. The reason people put up with it in the first place is the livery is as cheap as chips. It is too late once the accident has happened. This type of yard needs removing. Most of these YO's are just cheating the system & putting cash in there back pockets. Again, no one worries until someting happens. Then all hell breaks loose. The real loser is the poor animal.
If we all have to provide safe yards like kennels & catteries the industry as a whole will benefit. More young people will come back into a job they want to be in if they can achieve a decent days pay for a decent days work.
Pay peanuts & you get chimps. Cut corners & you loose standards.
More than anything though, all horse owners that love there babies to bits needs to remember if you get DIY offered at £20 a week ( ie safe secure stabling & grazing plus excersise arena) dont complain that things are not what you expected.

 

[Ladydragon]

Under current legislation (animal welfare) the owner or keeper of the horse is responsible for the welfare of the horse.
A livery yard owner should be in possession of the passports of every horse on their yard and they are therefore deemed to be the keeper in the absence of the owner.

Is this your opinion Owlie or is it stated in legislation somewhere? I've not seen it and understood the passport had to be produced within three hours of an inspector's request - so need not be where the horse 'lives' at all times...

 

[fatpiggy]

I definitely think they should be licenced. The farm I'm on turns a totally blind eye to all sorts of neglect and terrible welfare despite many complaints by knowledgable and caring liveries. A couple of years back a pen was rented to a speciman of human life (I wouldn't call him a man) who stuffed a large number of very young calves and thought he'd fatten them up on the cheap. They were on open slats with absolutely no bedding and were fed nuts and straw. As they grew they were more and more like sardines. There were livery horses stabled just a few feet away in the same building and the stink of you know what was unbelievable, plus the air quality was appalling. They brought a ringworm outbreak with them. Two died of bacterial pneumonia, another fell down and was crushed to death - they were the lucky ones because at least it was all over for them. Those animals never set foot outside from the day they came to the day they went to market. They got to an age where the bull calves started trying to mount the heifers and fighting amongst themselves and they spent their days cr***ing on each other - what animal likes that? The owner was highly abusive to the liveries and there were numberous complaints but nothing was done. Now we have ponies that the RSPCA has been called out to, but still YO does nothing. Lately they have started offering full livery despite having no knowledge whatsoever. The bed put down for a 16hh TB I wouldn't have put a shetland pony on and you could sneeze your way down to the concrete. There really must be proper standards and regulation of all yards.

 

[gass]

Okay, looking at this from a personal point of view and stuff that is happening at my current DIY yard.

My horse and others on the yard have been kept in for weeks on end, we obviously ride and excersise, last wednesday my horse became colicky and vet called, strict instructions from vet to turn out at least half an hour a day to help to prevent colic, vet deemed that contributing factor was lack of turn out. I approached yard owner and said I appreciate and understand need to horses to be in (!) that we will benefit in the summer with grass etc. but can I please have half hour turn out a day so my boy can be himself and walk around untethered to forage etc. explained the issues with colic, (he is not a horse person by the way) just owns farm land and the yard. He was quite rude and aggressive in his response and said he does not care if horse is ill or what vet says, horse is not going out.

Now my question is though I have highlighted the fact of the colic and the needs of any horse to roam freely is he then in breach of the said welfare act in that he has failed to act to ensure that a animal does not suffer.


A person commits an offence if-
a. an act of his, or failure to act, causes an animal to suffer

 

[Goldenstar]

Okay, looking at this from a personal point of view and stuff that is happening at my current DIY yard.

My horse and others on the yard have been kept in for weeks on end, we obviously ride and excersise, last wednesday my horse became colicky and vet called, strict instructions from vet to turn out at least half an hour a day to help to prevent colic, vet deemed that contributing factor was lack of turn out. I approached yard owner and said I appreciate and understand need to horses to be in (!) that we will benefit in the summer with grass etc. but can I please have half hour turn out a day so my boy can be himself and walk around untethered to forage etc. explained the issues with colic, (he is not a horse person by the way) just owns farm land and the yard. He was quite rude and aggressive in his response and said he does not care if horse is ill or what vet says, horse is not going out.

Now my question is though I have highlighted the fact of the colic and the needs of any horse to roam freely is he then in breach of the said welfare act in that he has failed to act to ensure that a animal does not suffer.


A person commits an offence if-
a. an act of his, or failure to act, causes an animal to suffer

it is your choice to stable him there move him to another yard.
Licenseing when it comes is unlikely to micromanage livery yards but it will made livery more expensive.
I am lucky I have my own yard and land at home and when I hear what people are charging for livery I just can't see how they look after there places properly and make a profit.

 

[shadowboy]

All this talk of undercutting, what happened to the liveries and their horses who can't afford the new prices once licences are essential? Where will those horses be kept? I livery at a licensed yard but interested to know from the point of view of those who just about afford their.horse

 

[Wagtail]

Okay, looking at this from a personal point of view and stuff that is happening at my current DIY yard.

My horse and others on the yard have been kept in for weeks on end, we obviously ride and excersise, last wednesday my horse became colicky and vet called, strict instructions from vet to turn out at least half an hour a day to help to prevent colic, vet deemed that contributing factor was lack of turn out. I approached yard owner and said I appreciate and understand need to horses to be in (!) that we will benefit in the summer with grass etc. but can I please have half hour turn out a day so my boy can be himself and walk around untethered to forage etc. explained the issues with colic, (he is not a horse person by the way) just owns farm land and the yard. He was quite rude and aggressive in his response and said he does not care if horse is ill or what vet says, horse is not going out.

Now my question is though I have highlighted the fact of the colic and the needs of any horse to roam freely is he then in breach of the said welfare act in that he has failed to act to ensure that a animal does not suffer.


A person commits an offence if-
a. an act of his, or failure to act, causes an animal to suffer

I am a yard owner and provide turnout all year round, but not always in the paddocks. They get 3 hours in a dedicated sand turnout during the winter. I make it clear to owners that this is the arrangement before they come to the livery. This year I have made the exception for one horse, because she is in foal, but this has led to problems. Other liveries who were previously happy with the all weather arrangement, have asked for grass turnout. One horse has COPD, the other box walks, so I regret making that exception. I am lucky that my liveries are very accepting of my reasons for declining their requests and no more has been said on the matter. Would I therefore be responsible if the COPD worstened or the box walker colicked or injured itself? I don't know. But morally, I shouldn't be as their owners took the decision to come here in full knowledge of their horses conditions and the fact that turnout would be limited to 3 hours a day in the winter. Personally, if I had a horse in your situation, there wouldn't be a problem as he would get at least 3 hours turnout every day, but if I didn't have the facilities, then I would provide half hour turnout on a temporary basis but also give a month's notice to leave the yard and find somewhere that was more suitable to your horse's needs.

 

[gass]

I accept what you are saying - but at the time of coming to the yard, it was advertised as 24/7 turn out, no mention of staying in when ground was wet, all this has come about since he has started getting money from DEFRA (not sure how it works).

I accept that the welfare of my horse is my responsibility and as a responsible owner I go to the yard morning and evening and do what is necessary to and for my horse, but I can only do so much for them when they are stabled and not allowed turn out. I am saying that he has been made aware of the problem and the preventative measures that are needed, as they say prevention is better than cure. As he has been made aware is he therefore not doing what he can to prevent the horse from suffering.

You sound like a decent yard owner and you base your findings on what you are given,we have no other turn out options as you have given your livery - mine however is extremelly agressive and rude, he often shouts at young girls (under 16) and reduces many people to tears, at the end of the day my horse is my responsibility and I need to do what ever I can to prevent him from suffering, his best interests are what concerns me most.

Rank over...

 

[acw295]

Really against licensing, the most appaling yards I've seen are so called BHS approved yards where it is acceptable to keep horses in 24/7, don't allow ad lib forage etc. Nicest yards from a welfare point of view have been DIY yards on farms that have ample grazing and allow horses to behave naturally in herds. I know where I'd rather be!!

 

[MerrySherryRider]

I've only been a livery on one BHS approved livery yard and it was probably the worst yard I've been on. The owners were stressy people who screamed at the horses and the entire winter paddock was a deep mud bath devoid of any grass and no shelter for the poor horses living out in it 24/7. Twice daily they would chuck hay over the fence, which lasted long enough for the herd to gobble it up and thrash the rest in the skirmish. The lower ranking horses got the muddy pickings after the others had finished.
Stables for those that wanted them were lovely, freshly white washed and the feed room was immaculate. Don't think the horses were bothered about the decor though.
I didn't stay long, went to a non-BHS approved yard where the facilities that mattered to horse welfare were catered for.

Personally, I don't care what the YO does with my livery money, as long as the horses have a decent environment and turnout. I'm quite capable of making my own assessment when viewing a new yard.

 

[The_snoopster]

Okay, looking at this from a personal point of view and stuff that is happening at my current DIY yard.

My horse and others on the yard have been kept in for weeks on end, we obviously ride and excersise, last wednesday my horse became colicky and vet called, strict instructions from vet to turn out at least half an hour a day to help to prevent colic, vet deemed that contributing factor was lack of turn out. I approached yard owner and said I appreciate and understand need to horses to be in (!) that we will benefit in the summer with grass etc. but can I please have half hour turn out a day so my boy can be himself and walk around untethered to forage etc. explained the issues with colic, (he is not a horse person by the way) just owns farm land and the yard. He was quite rude and aggressive in his response and said he does not care if horse is ill or what vet says, horse is not going out.

Now my question is though I have highlighted the fact of the colic and the needs of any horse to roam freely is he then in breach of the said welfare act in that he has failed to act to ensure that a animal does not suffer.


A person commits an offence if-
a. an act of his, or failure to act, causes an animal to suffer[


There is a simple solution to your problem and that is to move yards, I rent my own land and had a stable and adjoining feed shed built. I have made winter turnout and summer turnout, ok so at the start it did cost a bit to build and fence off paddocks etc but If I went into livery and had this sort of setup it would of cost me double in livery within a year. I have enough land to have 24/7 turnout all year around for 3 or 4 horses depending on size, my stable is rarely used but is there for if one gets poorly or I want to do something out of the rain with them.
If someone was unhappy or saw cruelty on a daily basis with nothing done by the YO I would let them know my feeling then pack my bags and get the hell out of there.

 

[Ladydragon]

Now my question is though I have highlighted the fact of the colic and the needs of any horse to roam freely is he then in breach of the said welfare act in that he has failed to act to ensure that a animal does not suffer.

A person commits an offence if-
a. an act of his, or failure to act, causes an animal to suffer

IMO he's not being overly fair, BUT at the same time, it's also arguable that you are more responsible for your horse's care so committing the offence yourself if you leave the horse there knowing it's an unsuitable environment for his needs...

I accept what you are saying - but at the time of coming to the yard, it was advertised as 24/7 turn out, no mention of staying in when ground was wet, all this has come about since he has started getting money from DEFRA (not sure how it works).

Do you have a contract? Did he give you a period of notice to the change?

He doesn't have to maintain 24/7 livery if he chooses to change it - although there should be a period of notice IMO... Annoying though it is, the onus is on you to stay and indirectly agree with the policy change or vote with your feet and find a yard that does...

 

[shadowboy]

Acw295 I'm in agreement with you some of the BHS yards are so over the top about things you feel you can't breath!

 

[gass]

Hi Peeps,

Believe me - the past day has been spent looking for yards and fields to rent, but nothing yet. I don't want to stay there any longer than I need to, we do have a contract it says absolutely nothing about turn out and he changes his mind from one year to the next, everyone on the yard grumbles about it but no one challenges him and when they do, the abuse you get is unrealistic, he is threatening, abusive and even rants at the young girls who are there, he done this to me yesterday and I have been on the phone scanning the internet since looking for livery options.

I would love to have a field and do what I want with it, but they are few and far between here.

Oh and when I leave I will leave in a storm as I will be complaining to Defra about the lack of maintenance on a live mains wire that has appeared above ground with cracked caseing exposing the wire which is arching, right along the path to the paddocks, it has been reported 3 times now first time 3 june last year.

I may be sounding bitter, but this person does not even want to discuss rationally half an hour turn out just whilst we muck out, I dont think that is too much to ask, they are in today eventhough the ground is frozen.

Sooner out the better..... so if anyone knows of places in south cambs let me know.

 

[Cocorules]

I am in favour of licensing because standards are too low at the moment. I do agree with the person who pointed out that it would reduce the availability of livery and plenty of people could not afford increased prices. You do end up with another welfare issue of what happens to those horses. Change has to be gradual. I do want to stop people setting up livery yards where they lack facilities to give horses proper turnout and shelter. Hate them having to be in all the time or stuck out with no shelter whether man made or natural.

 

[Ladydragon]

he is threatening, abusive and even rants at the young girls who are there, he done this to me yesterday and I have been on the phone scanning the internet since looking for livery options.

Dang...I would be too... That's bonkers...

Maybe start a different thread asking about liveries in the area - it might be seen by people who've not come into this thread...

 

[Bikerchickone]

I have to say I'm definitely not in favour of licensing livery yards. So many people who keep horses and run livery yards are on a shoe string budget anyway. Licensing this would mean that many would close down and those that were left would have to face increased costs to stay afloat, plus being overwhelmed with demand which would result in rising prices for livery.

Personally I've been on two licensed yards and both were shocking once you actually got there and saw what went on. One had about a third of the grazing she should have had and lied about when horses were turned out to get her license, the other had the lowest standards I think I've ever seen in a yard and I left there within a few days. Even with the minimum licensing requirements met these yards were awful and we voted with our hooves and left.

I think we are each responsible for making sure our horses are kept in a safe and healthy environment. I don't think licensing can replace the need to look for yourself and ask the right questions. My yard is not licensed, however it is insured, it is safe, the horses are happy and well cared for and my YO works hard to keep it that way, she works 14 hour days, 6 days a week. Ultimately responsibility for a horse lies with the owner and I can't see that changing with licensing, how can it?

BTW I also have heard that all horse's passports should be kept with them at all times, however only one yard I have been on has asked for the passports and these were kept in the kitchen in a cupboard locked with a combination padlock so we could all gain access at any time.

 

[Ladydragon]

I have to say I'm definitely not in favour of licensing livery yards.

Can't say I'm a massive fan of the idea... I know mine would close which would be a technical hitch to put it mildly... It's a working farm and it would be easier for the farmer to re jig the barn, remove the stables and use it for other purposes than take on the extra faffing around with statutory demands and paperwork...

It's ultra basic DIY and quite inexpensive so a bit extra for them in using a non essential barn and grazing unsuitable for cattle pasture... But they're the kind of people who stayed with me and cried with me when our yearling had to be put to sleep... You can't license that sort of care into people...

The buck stops with me for the horses health and wellbeing IMO... Different to using a kennels for two weeks and expecting 100% responsibility on their behalf whilst going on holiday etc...

 

[zaminda]

I rent a field, so I doubt it would come under the guise of a yard anyway, but I am against liscensing. I too have kept horses on BHS yards, several covered in ragwort, so I can't see the point. I would never give a YO my horses passport. You only need to produce them if you are moving them, and from my understanding, if you are rushing a horse to a vet they class it as an exception. However, where would he YO keep them? At the yard? (not very secure if there was a break in?) At home? (then have to retrieve them if you are going out and about?) Sorry, but I have come across my fair share of looney YO and there is no way I would leave them with my horses documentation on a long term basis.