Loading issues

[Na1998]

Hi all

I have a horse that’s a bit tricky to load (when I say tricky I mean very tricky) sometimes he just goes on and other times he will just plant his feet at the bottom of the ramp and gives me the impression he just can’t be bothered going on, if we try and get firm/apply any pressure then that makes the situation a million times worse. When he loads he doesn’t seem nervous at all, he just eats away at food and doesn’t rush to get off. Now he is 17.2 and we are only in a 7.5t, however it isn’t tight for him but I think if I was that size I’d be a little worried stepping into a small space, today we moved the horsebox to a certain angle which made the ramp flatter and less steep and he just jumped on straight away with no hesitation at the ramp however when we go places this isn’t going to be an option as a lot of the time the ground is flat and we won’t be able to angel the lorry the way we did today . 2 questions, have people with this issue found a bigger horsebox helped i.e 18t with air suspension and question 2 is does this sound like he has an issue with the ramp? At my wits end here, we practice so much but everytime we go somewhere he goes back to square one, and yep I had to hack miles home yesterday because he wouldn’t load back on the horsebox

 

[Mrs C]

I'd personally get a natural horsemanship person in to help

 

[TealH0rse]

Can’t offer huge amounts of advice but someone I know used treats/carrots to lure theirs in every few days, drove around the block then came back. Giving her a reward and making it a regular occurrence really helped. It’s just the hassle of doing it regularly even if you’re not actually going anywhere.

Might be worth driving somewhere close to your common hacking routes to test loading away from home, just so it is easier to hack home if loading does become an issue once you get there.

 

[Identityincrisis]

Richard maxwell. I've had him out to 2 different horses, the first one i didn't think he would get on as i had tried unsuccessfully for 2 years, took him 1 1/2 hours and i never had an issue again

 

[SilverLinings]

If you could go out regularly over a couple of weeks (as suggested above), only using your yard to load so you can make the ramp flatter, then drive around for 10mins, return and unload, then this might get past the problem by replacing the habit of refusing with a pattern of easy loading. Hopefully if you are able to do this a number of times with no hitches he won't revert to his 'usual' behaviour of being difficult to load, but will continue with his new habit of walking straight in.

As he is happy to walk in with the ramp at a different angle I am not sure that it sounds like he isn't comfortable with the size of the box. If you do decide to change transport then beware that some larger boxes have steeper ramps, so you might need to take care when choosing.

I sympathise as many years ago I had a similar horse, who would also do the same getting off the box; I eventually found that saving a particular type of feed (his favourite, he was obsessed with it) for loading/unloading only did the trick with him. Obviously that only works if they are very food-motivated.

 

[Na1998]

Richard maxwell. I've had him out to 2 different horses, the first one i didn't think he would get on as i had tried unsuccessfully for 2 years, took him 1 1/2 hours and i never had an issue again

Thank you! Based outside the UK in Channel islands so difficult to get him over

 

[Na1998]

If you could go out regularly over a couple of weeks (as suggested above), only using your yard to load so you can make the ramp flatter, then drive around for 10mins, return and unload, then this might get past the problem by replacing the habit of refusing with a pattern of easy loading. Hopefully if you are able to do this a number of times with no hitches he won't revert to his 'usual' behaviour of being difficult to load, but will continue with his new habit of walking straight in.

As he is happy to walk in with the ramp at a different angle I am not sure that it sounds like he isn't comfortable with the size of the box. If you do decide to change transport then beware that some larger boxes have steeper ramps, so you might need to take care when choosing.

I sympathise as many years ago I had a similar horse, who would also do the same getting off the box; I eventually found that saving a particular type of feed (his favourite, he was obsessed with it) for loading/unloading only did the trick with him. Obviously that only works if they are very food-motivated.

We do practice so much and always take him out for a drive, then he just goes back to square one but he was so much better with the ramp flatter, he has plenty of room to turn around and his head isn’t close to the roof. Hoping we don’t have to get a bigger lorry ?

 

[SilverLinings]

It sounds like you've put quite a lot of work into it already.

When he is being uncooperative what do you do? Have you ever had to give up that day, or do you wait as long as it takes for him to load? Have you tried loading him hungry (so he wants to get to the haynet in the box)?

If you think box size might be the problem then I'd try to hire a larger one a few times before you commit to buying, just to make sure that is indeed the solution.

 

[Na1998]

It sounds like you've put quite a lot of work into it already.

When he is being uncooperative what do you do? Have you ever had to give up that day, or do you wait as long as it takes for him to load? Have you tried loading him hungry (so he wants to get to the haynet in the box)?

If you think box size might be the problem then I'd try to hire a larger one a few times before you commit to buying, just to make sure that is indeed the solution.

We have never given up apart from yesterday, we will happily stand there for hours usually until he decides to go on and then we will take him off and put him straight back on again and he is fine, yesterday though we took him away from the yard and couldn’t get him back in, we stood there for an hour and a half waiting for him to get on but we were losing light so we had to hack home so he won yesterday but today he was straight on no questions asked at all, he is bizzare because he really isn’t scared of it

 

[SilverLinings]

The horse I had who was similar seemed to simply just learn that I couldn't physically make him do it, so why should he. He was quite a character and very clever, but could be very stubborn (to the day he died at 30 we still hadn't sorted out who was actually in charge as we were as stubborn as each other), fantastic horse though.

As it isn't a case of a clear fear of something (the dark, being on his own, travelling etc) I think you will probably need to have a behaviourist visit and see him in person to get appropriate advice, especially as it sounds as though you've tried the usual methods. I don't blame you for hacking back last time (and it isn't 'giving up', unless you only try for a couple of minutes each time before stopping), I only asked as sometimes people don't realise the value of spending the time to work through the refusal, even if it takes 1hr+ (but you've obviously done that).

 

[Na1998]

The horse I had who was similar seemed to simply just learn that I couldn't physically make him do it, so why should he. He was quite a character and very clever, but could be very stubborn (to the day he died at 30 we still hadn't sorted out who was actually in charge as we were as stubborn as each other), fantastic horse though.

As it isn't a case of a clear fear of something (the dark, being on his own, travelling etc) I think you will probably need to have a behaviourist visit and see him in person to get appropriate advice, especially as it sounds as though you've tried the usual methods. I don't blame you for hacking back last time (and it isn't 'giving up', unless you only try for a couple of minutes each time before stopping), I only asked as sometimes people don't realise the value of spending the time to work through the refusal, even if it takes 1hr+ (but you've obviously done that).

God don’t tell me that ? he is a lovely boy, I am just desperate to get him out and about but this loading issue is his only down side, he definitely knows we can’t make him do it, if we get firm he’ll just rear and run backwards and he makes it clear that if we get angry with him then it’s not up for debate and he won’t go on it, he is very clever!

 

[SilverLinings]

I think in those moments you just have to try to congratulate yourself for buying such a clever horse (rather than just swearing loudly)! At least if you don't push him he is calm, so neither of you are in an unsafe situation.

 

[iknowmyvalue]

Mine can sometimes be like this. And he’s only going into a trailer so ramp steepness isn’t a factor!

I bought one of these https://www.littlefieldsfarm.com/wa...HLNg4RjGYJm4byuGhF_DZ0qo7Y6-st-caAmWbEALw_wcB
For the times I need him to get in and he really won’t (we’ve done a lot of work and now can usually get him on in <10-15mins, except sometimes he decides nah). Don’t get the same rearing and flying backwards by putting pressure on that, which I do if I put pressure on the front end.

 

[Wizpop]

My horse was difficult when I got him. I followed the advice of the previous owner and when he stopped and planted, I backed him up- a long way! Once or twice doing 5his and he hasn’t been a problem since!
Might be worth a try as they dont like walking backwards!

 

[Identityincrisis]

So when you say he escalates when you put pressure on him, i get your reluctance to keep 'on at him' with the first horse RM came out to, i hated putting him under pressure as he would escalate, rearing full height, crashing through me etc which i felt made things worse but RM told me they go through that before accepting. They have 5 stages No, definitely not, absolutely not, F YOU!!!, ok then, you have to go through the F You stage to get the acceptance even if it's not pretty.

Clearly your horse isn't scared and RM would say the box is big enough, a 7.5t is more than big enough for 1 horse!

 

[nagblagger]

How steep is your ramp? Have you got somewhere you can box to, even if its just down the road, where you can lessen the steepness of the ramp. If he then goes in without an issue it may be the ramp incline that is causing him stress. Could he be in pain going up the ramp?

 

[McFluff]

What does he do when he plants? Is he looking around him, focusing on other things? Is his energy high or low?

My boy is very similar. He doesn’t like the steep ramp (and unfortunately sometimes you can’t position well enough to reduce that). I was told to get his energy up and run him on, but that was not a good long term approach. It just became a bigger issue. If you try and force, he plants deeper (and gets more worried). So I’ve done groundwork, where he has to focus on me (hard for him as he’s so nosy). And I’ve been working on keeping his energy low, and his focus on me, when we load. It does seem to be helping (I am touching wood as I type this). I let him take time (yesterday was a couple of mins), he seems to need to think about the question being asked, as long as he stays focused on me. He also gets a tasty bucket treat once on.

It does take the edge off going out if you’re worried about getting home. Good luck.

 

[Na1998]

How steep is your ramp? Have you got somewhere you can box to, even if its just down the road, where you can lessen the steepness of the ramp. If he then goes in without an issue it may be the ramp incline that is causing him stress. Could he be in pain going up the ramp?

Not overly steep and I wouldn’t say it’s pain related related because sometimes he’s fine going on, it’s just like he can’t be bothered to commit going up the ramp and he is definitely worse away from home, this horse has had more vet mots than I’ve had hot meals this year, definitely not pain related x

 

[Na1998]

What does he do when he plants? Is he looking around him, focusing on other things? Is his energy high or low?

My boy is very similar. He doesn’t like the steep ramp (and unfortunately sometimes you can’t position well enough to reduce that). I was told to get his energy up and run him on, but that was not a good long term approach. It just became a bigger issue. If you try and force, he plants deeper (and gets more worried). So I’ve done groundwork, where he has to focus on me (hard for him as he’s so nosy). And I’ve been working on keeping his energy low, and his focus on me, when we load. It does seem to be helping (I am touching wood as I type this). I let him take time (yesterday was a couple of mins), he seems to need to think about the question being asked, as long as he stays focused on me. He also gets a tasty bucket treat once on.

It does take the edge off going out if you’re worried about getting home. Good luck.

He just plants his feet, sometimes has a nosy around and sometimes takes a nap, he won’t let me trot him on because he will feel forced, the only way it works is I just give him his head and let him come on in his own time which isn’t great when you have places to be. He’s a nightmare sometimes

 

[Bernster]

I used a natural horsemanship person to help me.

 

[Cowpony]

Can you use a couple of bricks under the ramp to reduce the angle?

My mare doesn't like wobbly floors so doesn't like the ramp when one side is on the floor and the other side isnt. Which happens a lot because most lorry parks aren't totally level. I take a brick with me to put under the side that's in the air. Have left it in a lorry park a couple of times so apologies to anybody who's tripped over it!

 

[Green Bean]

Horses not loading can be so devastating. My horse went through similar stages. First time with a trailer, got in a guy that used a chifney and a bit of force. It worked for quite a while but then she went back to saying no. I then bought her a lovely open 3.5t horsebox thinking it will be nicer for her. She got on a couple of times but then point blank refused. After the experience with the first guy, I wasn't keen to go the aggressive route again as it didn't have long term benefits. Instead I called in Michael Peace. He is more into natural horsemanship. I learnt a lot about the approach to loading. It revolved around outside the box is not a comfortable place (nothing dramatic, just that you can 'pull' the horse a bit more). Once the horse is on the ramp, it is praise and go, praise and go as they slowly come onboard. If at any time they want to go backwards, you release all pressure so they can go without resistance, but then you pick up the pressure once again when they are outside the box. This is all reliant on your horse not having any other hang ups OP which it sounds like you don't. Mine doesn't like travelling, and, according to Michael suffers from a bit of separation anxiety. Add to this, which is a recent thing I have found she has added to her box of tricks, if there is anything going on around her, e.g. trailer parked next to you, people talking or walking near the box, etc, she won't go on. Spent 2 hours at a show a few weeks ago as this issue escalated. I had even parked a little away from where everyone else was parked when I got there, but when I came back from my test, I found to my horror that my box was surrounded by other noisy competitors and their entourages. The only way I managed to get her in the box was hauling some crowd control fences over and putting them behind her and shepherded her in that way. [I have done box loading practice every day for 2 months since I had Michael come to assist - you can never think the issue is solved just because they have gotten on once]

 

[Annagain]

I had an excellent ground work trainer help me with my last boy. I'd definitely look for one either in the channel islands or who would come across to help. Charlie did the same, just stand there and only escalate if we upped the pressure. The trainer explained this wasn't "can't be bothered" this was shutting down as he couldn't cope and it's far more common than people realise. When they plant their feet it's because they've got so much else going on in their minds that they almost forget which leg to move next.

This might sound crazy but have you tried him on a SMALLER lorry? If he'll go up a less steep ramp, maybe a 3.5T (properly built for a horse his size) might work? Obviously you'd have to travel him on his own.

 

[Birker2020]

I know it sounds obvious but are you sure the ramp isn't bouncing as he steps on to it? Would it help to try other peoples lorries and see how he reacts to that, sorry if you've already said that.

 

[SibeliusMB]

I had an excellent ground work trainer help me with my last boy. I'd definitely look for one either in the channel islands or who would come across to help. Charlie did the same, just stand there and only escalate if we upped the pressure. The trainer explained this wasn't "can't be bothered" this was shutting down as he couldn't cope and it's far more common than people realise. When they plant their feet it's because they've got so much else going on in their minds that they almost forget which leg to move next.

This.

Horses in shutdown are easily confused with being too clever/cheeky/etc. That's why they have a tendency to explode when pushed too far. Horses don't have some ulterior motives, they react to what is in front of them. Usually they shutdown or blow up because they are over threshold and don't feel safe. And if they don't feel safe, they don't trust you.

OP I doubt this will be a quick fix, prepare for a long road of educating yourself on horse behavior and recognizing thresholds in your horse. I recommend watching or listening to Warwick Schiller and some of the folks he works with (check out his podcast for more resources). I would take this horse right back to basic, BASIC groundwork for several weeks and teach him that you see and hear him. Learn to recognize very subtle changes in his body language. Know where he is mentally/where his focusis. Once basic trust and relationship is re-established, then work on introducing small questions for him to answer (maybe pushing a ball or walking on a tarp, etc). Something that will challenge him and help increase his self-confidence and trust in you (but NOT the lorry). Once he's comfortably and confidently answering those questions, maybe try some loading (without going anywhere). I agree you might want to try lorries of different shapes/sizes if able. But for heavens sake do NOT skip the rebuilding of the relationship and the re-establishing of trust.

 

[Birker2020]

The only thing that ever worked with Bailey consistently when she refused to load into the trailer was walking backwards in the dually. I'd walk her backwards every time she stood with two feet on the ramp, ears relaxed, lower lip dangling. So I'd rein her backwards then approach the ramp again. Eventually she used to be so bored of walking backwards she welcomed the forward movement.

She was never any issue to travel it was just the loading and there was never any rhyme or reason, she'd be great for day or weeks and then say no. Or say no coming home but not going or vice versa. She even ended up being a demo horse for Monty Roberts in front of a crowd of 600 at a riding club when he visited.

I had a brilliant guy called Grant Bazin in the end, I think he worked for Richard Maxwell or someone similar and he had her lunging into the trailer whilst he stood about 20ft away on the end of the lunge. Never had issues after that. The longest I had to take to load was two hours, but after Monty and Grant it was something like 2 minutes was considered a long time.

 

[AnShanDan]

I also think Richard Maxwell's approach would help. I have a mare, I bred her myself and know her really well. She used to load OKish, sometimes stood for a minute or walked straight in, and we put up with it.

Then a while went by without travelling her and I started riding her myself, when we went to travel again I think my nerves (about riding when we got where we were going) affected her and she began to be more and more difficult to load.

I thought I knew the RM technique from years ago but it wasn't working. I bit the bullet and bought his loading videos during lockdown and watched them really closely. He basically does the same thing with all the horses he goes to. My mare had been totally refusing to load, I'd spent hours that week standing with her at the ramp. On the day after I watched the videos I went out and put the work into practice with her, i didn't in a million years think it would be successful, I spent maybe 20 minutes with her on the ground and then attempted to load her. She was in the box in 30 secs, and I've never had an issue again.

I then taught my friend the same method with her horse who was worse and could have a dangerous meltdown sometimes over loading, now he loads perfectly too.

 

[Na1998]

This.

Horses in shutdown are easily confused with being too clever/cheeky/etc. That's why they have a tendency to explode when pushed too far. Horses don't have some ulterior motives, they react to what is in front of them. Usually they shutdown or blow up because they are over threshold and don't feel safe. And if they don't feel safe, they don't trust you.

OP I doubt this will be a quick fix, prepare for a long road of educating yourself on horse behavior and recognizing thresholds in your horse. I recommend watching or listening to Warwick Schiller and some of the folks he works with (check out his podcast for more resources). I would take this horse right back to basic, BASIC groundwork for several weeks and teach him that you see and hear him. Learn to recognize very subtle changes in his body language. Know where he is mentally/where his focusis. Once basic trust and relationship is re-established, then work on introducing small questions for him to answer (maybe pushing a ball or walking on a tarp, etc). Something that will challenge him and help increase his self-confidence and trust in you (but NOT the lorry). Once he's comfortably and confidently answering those questions, maybe try some loading (without going anywhere). I agree you might want to try lorries of different shapes/sizes if able. But for heavens sake do NOT skip the rebuilding of the relationship and the re-establishing of trust.

I do partially agree but why some days does he just jumps on no questions asked, tuck into his food straight away ect, he doesn’t rush to get off he quite happily stands in there and watches the world go by. I think you know your own horse better than anyone else and I am very confident there is no fear there and he is actually just taking the p*ss, yeah he probably would rather not load but I just can’t wrap by head around why he is fine sometimes, we tried for 3 hours a few weeks back… point blank no then it started pouring down (he isn’t a fan of rain) and he just happily walked on

 

[Na1998]

I know it sounds obvious but are you sure the ramp isn't bouncing as he steps on to it? Would it help to try other peoples lorries and see how he reacts to that, sorry if you've already said that.

no it doesn’t bounce, I’m tried standing on the bottom at the corner to make sure it’s still and it didn’t make a difference but thank you

 

[Na1998]

I had an excellent ground work trainer help me with my last boy. I'd definitely look for one either in the channel islands or who would come across to help. Charlie did the same, just stand there and only escalate if we upped the pressure. The trainer explained this wasn't "can't be bothered" this was shutting down as he couldn't cope and it's far more common than people realise. When they plant their feet it's because they've got so much else going on in their minds that they almost forget which leg to move next.

This might sound crazy but have you tried him on a SMALLER lorry? If he'll go up a less steep ramp, maybe a 3.5T (properly built for a horse his size) might work? Obviously you'd have to travel him on his own.

thank you! I’ve tried him on a 3.5t before when I first bought him actually to bring him home and he was pretty awful going in to that ?