Loan contract

[JBM]

A quick question
As per a loan contract you have to give a set amount of days to fix something once you point it out (30)
But if problem breaches the contract and tips into a welfare problem I would assume you have full rights to take back the horse?

 

[saddlesore]

If it’s a genuine welfare issue I’d take my horse back regardless of agreement.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I think I recognise those terms as the standard BHS ones. They are a template and can be amended if they don’t work you.

What these terms state is that the loaner has 30 days to remedy a breach of contract.

That doesn’t mean anything that is a problem, it only means something which is contractually required that hasn’t been met, which constitutes a breach.

Understanding what the fundamental terms of the contract are will show you what is subject to that clause.

It also doesn’t mean that a problem has to be fixed within 30 days, only that the breach should be fixed. That might seem like the same thing but it won’t be in all cases. Again it comes down to the terms.

I would look at every term, understand how it would be complied with, think about what problems might arise, and work out if 30 days to remedy a breach is reasonable. Or whether, even if the breach is remedied within 30 days, the horse will have suffered ongoing harm.

 

[AmyMay]

If it’s a genuine welfare issue I’d take my horse back regardless of agreement.

I agree

 

[LadyGascoyne]

@JBM it’s worth clarifying - are you asking because you are wanting to put a horse on loan, or because you have an issue with a horse that is already on loan?

 

[JBM]

@JBM it’s worth clarifying - are you asking because you are wanting to put a horse on loan, or because you have an issue with a horse that is already on loan?

I have an issue with a horse on loan and I’m looking to get my ducks in a row as I may have to remove him this week and want to have an idea what loaners rights would be to chase up after me
don’t want to go into too much detail just as of yet but it’s a weight issue

Horse will be removed guys don’t worry

 

[Equi]

A loan contract is just a moral contract. Legally you own the horse and can take it whenever you want, loaner won’t have any come back.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I have an issue with a horse on loan and I’m looking to get my ducks in a row as I may have to remove him this week and want to have an idea what loaners rights would be to chase up after me
don’t want to go into too much detail just as of yet but it’s a weight issue

Horse will be removed guys don’t worry

I would have a look at what the contract requires, from a purely ‘contractual terms’ perspective, and double check for a welfare clause/ severe breaches etc.

I would also have a think about what they could define as their loss, if the horse is taken suddenly. I’d be surprised if there is much in the ‘loss’ category.

I think a lot of how this will play out will be in the handling of it rather than in the fine print. I would also remove a horse if there was a welfare issue. I would rely on my handling of the situation to mitigate the potential for any future claims.

Is it clear-cut on the welfare issue front? It might be useful for you to have a professional opinion on that - maybe a vet or an experienced YO- in your back pocket.

A loan contract is just a moral contract. Legally you own the horse and can take it whenever you want, loaner won’t have any come back.

Loan contracts can be legally enforceable. Ownership isn’t affected but contractual rights exist can exist over something that is legally owned by someone else.

 

[JBM]

I would have a look at what the contract requires, from a purely ‘contractual terms’ perspective, and double check for a welfare clause/ severe breaches etc.

I would also have a think about what they could define as their loss, if the horse is taken suddenly. I’d be surprised if there is much in the ‘loss’ category.

I think a lot of how this will play out will be in the handling of it rather than in the fine print. I would also remove a horse if there was a welfare issue. I would rely on my handling of the situation to mitigate the potential for any future claims.

Is it clear-cut on the welfare issue front? It might be useful for you to have a professional opinion on that - maybe a vet or an experienced YO- in your back pocket.



Loan contracts can be legally enforceable. Ownership isn’t affected but contractual rights exist can exist over something that is legally owned by someone else.

Would it be okie if I pm you more details? Just as you seem to know a lot and I would appreciate your opinion
I think it would be pretty clear cut about his condition tho

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Would it be okie if I pm you more details? Just as you seem to know a lot and I would appreciate your opinion
I think it would be pretty clear cut about his condition tho

Of course, you are welcome to.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Morally and legally the loaner is in the wrong! She has not taken adequate care of him and I doubt she would even have told you anything had he not injured himself, I hope to god she cleaned those cuts last night or they will end up infected.

Keep your cool when you go to see her and either have a witness or record everything!

 

[JBM]

Morally and legally the loaner is in the wrong! She has not taken adequate care of him and I doubt she would even have told you anything had he not injured himself, I hope to god she cleaned those cuts last night or they will end up infected.

Keep your cool when you go to see her and either have a witness or record everything!

Taking a witness and will record from my pocket thank you for the advice unfortunately muscle man will be at work but my friend has agreed to come

 

[Glitter's fun]

Taking a witness and will record from my pocket thank you for the advice unfortunately muscle man will be at work but my friend has agreed to come

An obvious camera is more use than muscle.
I agree that a veterinary opinion would help if loner is objecting.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

If you are concerned about the horses welfare just go and collect there is nowt they can do.

 

[blitznbobs]

If they did sue then the most they could get is the cost of loaning a similar horse for 30 days who is a negligible amount as most loans are done free. Given that the horse is injured then one could argue (very strongly) that you taking the horse back saves her money thus mitigating any loss, if you get the vet out be sure to keep the bill as well as any reports… but definitely go and get your horse

 

[ycbm]

In this country you can only sue for actual loss, not for emotional upset. In the case of taking away a free horse, it's difficult to see what you could possibly be sued for.

I would be careful how much you say about this locally, if the loaner has money you don't want a libel case, even if you would win it.
.

 

[Dontforgetaboutme]

In this country you can only sue for actual loss, not for emotional upset. In the case of taking away a free horse, it's difficult to see what you could possibly be sued for.

I would be careful how much you say about this locally, if the loaner has money you don't want a libel case, even if you would win it.
.

Could be out of pocket for advance livery fee, and tack they have bought.

 

[JBM]

Could be out of pocket for advance livery fee, and tack they have bought.

They kept him at home and all his tack was given with him thankfully so shouldn’t be any problems there

 

[blitznbobs]

In this country you can only sue for actual loss, not for emotional upset. In the case of taking away a free horse, it's difficult to see what you could possibly be sued for.

I would be careful how much you say about this locally, if the loaner has money you don't want a libel case, even if you would win it.
.

You can definitely sue for emotional distress / psychological harm in the uk. However the psychological harm of the horse being I’ll to the owner is a counter factor and how much harm is caused by losing a horse 30 days before they could collect it anyway … this is also very minimal

 

[LadyGascoyne]

You can definitely sue for emotional distress / psychological harm in the uk. However the psychological harm of the horse being I’ll to the owner is a counter factor and how much harm is caused by losing a horse 30 days before they could collect it anyway … this is also very minimal

From what I recall, claiming for emotional distress would be very unlikely to be successful in breach of contract cases. If it’s a discrimination case or a medical negligence type case, then it might be more common but I don’t think there is much to support disappointment etc within the context of contracts. Things may have changed but I seem to remember that being the case. Maybe a currently practicing lawyer will correct me but that’s where it was last time I checked.

The financial harm/ loss is likely to be low or negligible with a pet horse but it’s worth considering to check the box - if the horse was a top competition animal then there could be more complexity.

 

[blitznbobs]

From what I recall, claiming for emotional distress would be very unlikely to be successful in breach of contract cases. If it’s a discrimination case or a medical negligence type case, then it might be more common but I don’t think there is much to support disappointment etc within the context of contracts. Things may have changed but I seem to remember that being the case. Maybe a currently practicing lawyer will correct me but that’s where it was last time I checked.

The financial harm/ loss is likely to be low or negligible with a pet horse but it’s worth considering to check the box - if the horse was a top competition animal then there could be more complexity.

Yes cos breaching a contract shouldnt really cause that much additional stress especially in this situation- if you love the horse a lot — 30 days will make bugger all difference to the distress in fact you could say ripping the plaster off and taking it day 1 is less distressing than the anticipation of 30 days wait .

 

[jhoward]

I have an issue with a horse on loan and I’m looking to get my ducks in a row as I may have to remove him this week and want to have an idea what loaners rights would be to chase up after me
don’t want to go into too much detail just as of yet but it’s a weight issue

Horse will be removed guys don’t worry

Very little as the agreement is not legally binding.
It is not a legal document.

If your having issues remove the horse. Give as little notice as possible but go get the horse back.

 

[ycbm]

Could be out of pocket for advance livery fee, and tack they have bought.

But they aren't out of pocket. Those are expenses they occurred anyway and will occur whether they have a horse in the stable or not. Since the horse was on free loan it is very difficult to argue that it will cost them to replace a horse on free loan. The best they could claim would possibly be for riding lessons meanwhile, but given that a horse on full loan is not guaranteed to be in a rideable state on any particular day, horses being what they are, then that would be shaky ground as well.
.

 

[ycbm]

Very little as the agreement is not legally binding.
It is not a legal document.

Is this definitely the case? It's a contract, why is it not legally binding?

We had reports on the forum lost year of a court case lost over a few words in a text that gave the verdict in favour of the claimant who had a part loan horse removed shortly after they had paid for its transport to the stables. I don't understand why a contract on paper and signed would not be legally binding.
.

 

[AmyMay]

Hopefully you’ve now got your horse back, with little fuss

 

[ycbm]

From what I recall, claiming for emotional distress would be very unlikely to be successful in breach of contract cases. If it’s a discrimination case or a medical negligence type case, then it might be more common but I don’t think there is much to support disappointment etc within the context of contracts. Things may have changed but I seem to remember that being the case. Maybe a currently practicing lawyer will correct me but that’s where it was last time I checked.

The financial harm/ loss is likely to be low or negligible with a pet horse but it’s worth considering to check the box - if the horse was a top competition animal then there could be more complexity.

Sorry, this was what I meant, better explained by LG. This seems to be a pretty good explanation, that financial loss or physical damage must normally be experienced to trigger emotional damage payments.

Can I Sue for Emotional Distress? | First4Lawyers

Any sort of upsetting, or even traumatic, event could leave you suffering from anxiety, depression or fear. So can you sue for emotional distress?

www.first4lawyers.com

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Very little as the agreement is not legally binding.
It is not a legal document.

If your having issues remove the horse. Give as little notice as possible but go get the horse back.

It’s really not the case that it’s not legally binding. It could (and should) absolutely be a legal document.

So many people seem to be under the misconception that it isn’t a proper contract but, providing it satisfies all the usual requirements for contract, then it is as much a legal contact as renting a car.

 

[JBM]

Have been to see him and have stipulated very clearly that his condition will have to be improved and I will be visiting regularly
I gave 3 options based on some very good advice in line with the contract and they have a set amount of days to improve the situation before he is removed

 

[AmyMay]

Have been to see him and have stipulated very clearly that his condition will have to be improved and I will be visiting regularly
I gave 3 options based on some very good advice in line with the contract and they have a set amount of days to improve the situation before he is removed

You’re kinder than many of us would be. Hope things improve x

 

[JBM]

Just want to say thank you for all the advice as well everyone I found it a tricky situation to navigate as I am honestly horrible with confrontation and you guys really helped!