LynneB
Well-Known Member
wasn't overly clear in my last post, but as janetgeorge said you must not just go get her, but go with the authorities in full knowledge
loaned horse sold within days - dispute on ownership
- Thread starter janeyhewitt
- Start date
T_K
Well-Known Member
The thing is, we've tried the 'stealing your own property back' approach and the police informed us they would arrest us for going onto the land the horse was on rather than taking the horse....
martlin
Well-Known Member
But it is against the law to sell or buy a horse without a passport.
She can't just go and take it home, because even if we assumed it was not a theft it would still be at least trespassing or even breaking and entering - a felony.
She can't just go and take it home, because even if we assumed it was not a theft it would still be at least trespassing or even breaking and entering - a felony.
only_me
Well-Known Member
when friends horse was stolen and sold -they found it at a jumping comp they were at - all they had to do was prove ownership and the horse was theirs as they still had passport. the owners that had bought it stolen had to give pony back.
no advice really, just hugs.
no advice really, just hugs.
littlebobs
New User
this happens all the time and even having a loan agreement doesnt prevent people taking your horse and getting away with it. talk to the essex horsewatch as they are very helpful and have unfortunately had lots of experience with cases like these.
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
1. Loaner is wrong, very wrong to sell horse.
2. Buyer is correct in hanging onto horse until it can be proven.
3. Owner is right to be very angry.
But if;
a) Horse is happy in new home, and capable of workload required of it
b) New owners are happy with the horse, and still want it despite knowing the true age
c) Owner ( who, for whatever reason wanted to find a new home for horse) sees horse in new home that suits
Then, surely the solution is;
Original owner and buyer come to some agreement whereby they join forces to prosecute criminal person, the loaner who sold the horse?
Or is that too simple.......
2. Buyer is correct in hanging onto horse until it can be proven.
3. Owner is right to be very angry.
But if;
a) Horse is happy in new home, and capable of workload required of it
b) New owners are happy with the horse, and still want it despite knowing the true age
c) Owner ( who, for whatever reason wanted to find a new home for horse) sees horse in new home that suits
Then, surely the solution is;
Original owner and buyer come to some agreement whereby they join forces to prosecute criminal person, the loaner who sold the horse?
Or is that too simple.......
JM07
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
But it is against the law to sell or buy a horse without a passport.
[/ QUOTE ]
it's only illegal to SELL without a passport..not to buy....
But it is against the law to sell or buy a horse without a passport.
[/ QUOTE ]
it's only illegal to SELL without a passport..not to buy....
Tia
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
1. Loaner is wrong, very wrong to sell horse.
2. Buyer is correct in hanging onto horse until it can be proven.
3. Owner is right to be very angry.
But if;
a) Horse is happy in new home, and capable of workload required of it
b) New owners are happy with the horse, and still want it despite knowing the true age
c) Owner ( who, for whatever reason wanted to find a new home for horse) sees horse in new home that suits
Then, surely the solution is;
Original owner and buyer come to some agreement whereby they join forces to prosecute criminal person, the loaner who sold the horse?
Or is that too simple.......
[/ QUOTE ]
That's EXACTLY what I would do too.
1. Loaner is wrong, very wrong to sell horse.
2. Buyer is correct in hanging onto horse until it can be proven.
3. Owner is right to be very angry.
But if;
a) Horse is happy in new home, and capable of workload required of it
b) New owners are happy with the horse, and still want it despite knowing the true age
c) Owner ( who, for whatever reason wanted to find a new home for horse) sees horse in new home that suits
Then, surely the solution is;
Original owner and buyer come to some agreement whereby they join forces to prosecute criminal person, the loaner who sold the horse?
Or is that too simple.......
[/ QUOTE ]
That's EXACTLY what I would do too.
bhpride
Well-Known Member
As far as I know If you can prove ownership you're entitled to take her back without paying anything. The police sound powerless..or useless whichever you perfer.
If this ever happened to mine I can honestly say I'd steal the horse back, hide her if necessary which would be easy/Then claim we sold her bla bla - whatever it took.
Risk of getting charged with theft wouldn't bother me so long as I had her back and knew she was safe. My OH would happily take to rap he's already got a record, one more conviction wouldn't bother him
lol.
If the Police are that useless at getting her back, how much use will they be going after you?
anyway awful situation
Hope you get her back.
If this ever happened to mine I can honestly say I'd steal the horse back, hide her if necessary which would be easy/Then claim we sold her bla bla - whatever it took.
Risk of getting charged with theft wouldn't bother me so long as I had her back and knew she was safe. My OH would happily take to rap he's already got a record, one more conviction wouldn't bother him
If the Police are that useless at getting her back, how much use will they be going after you?
anyway awful situation
martlin
Well-Known Member
if it's only illegal to sell without passport, surely buying one would be facilitating a felony, wouldn't it?
a1b2c3
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
if it's only illegal to sell without passport, surely buying one would be facilitating a felony, wouldn't it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Lol, actually that is a pretty good point!
if it's only illegal to sell without passport, surely buying one would be facilitating a felony, wouldn't it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Lol, actually that is a pretty good point!
JM07
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
if it's only illegal to sell without passport, surely buying one would be facilitating a felony, wouldn't it?
[/ QUOTE ]
not according to DEFRA in thier infinite wisdom......
and there really isn't any need to smirk..i was just pointing out something relevant.
if it's only illegal to sell without passport, surely buying one would be facilitating a felony, wouldn't it?
[/ QUOTE ]
not according to DEFRA in thier infinite wisdom......
and there really isn't any need to smirk..i was just pointing out something relevant.
martlin
Well-Known Member
sorry, me blind, was looking for a confusion mark
JM07
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
sorry, me blind, was looking for a confusion mark
[/ QUOTE ]
OK.......
sorry, me blind, was looking for a confusion mark
[/ QUOTE ]
OK.......
Ranyhyn
Well-Known Member
How on earth do you prove ownership anyway -unless you have a bill of sale - and what does that prove really?
How awful, being a loanee and a loaner in the past - this really makes me angry, so sad on the rest of the good loans going on.
How awful, being a loanee and a loaner in the past - this really makes me angry, so sad on the rest of the good loans going on.
a1b2c3
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if it's only illegal to sell without passport, surely buying one would be facilitating a felony, wouldn't it?
[/ QUOTE ]
not according to DEFRA in thier infinite wisdom......
and there really isn't any need to smirk..i was just pointing out something relevant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Could you possibly post the link to relevant DEFRA page please?
Would be interested to read that.
Although, the law would certainly override DEFRA regulations, so i wonder where that would put you from a legal perspective?
[ QUOTE ]
if it's only illegal to sell without passport, surely buying one would be facilitating a felony, wouldn't it?
[/ QUOTE ]
not according to DEFRA in thier infinite wisdom......
and there really isn't any need to smirk..i was just pointing out something relevant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Could you possibly post the link to relevant DEFRA page please?
Would be interested to read that.
Although, the law would certainly override DEFRA regulations, so i wonder where that would put you from a legal perspective?
Passtheshampoo
Well-Known Member
I presume the "new" owners have gone and got the horse another passport. I agree with a lot of comments regarding contacting the Police again. I know they are busy but you have had property stolen. Do you have a local Horsewatch Co-ordinator who may perhaps know the law on this sort of problem? Good luck with getting your horse returned to you, let us all know how you get on.
JM07
Well-Known Member
no idea where it is Tori.....
i was told this by a DEFRA official at a Market about 2 years ago....
it came about as 4 cobs came off a Wagon straight onto another....with money changing hands but no passports....
Defra had a chat to the unloading party..no passports..Defra was told that the money was Diesel Money not purchase money...and as they technically weren't "sold" nothing illegal had taken place....
i asked him to clarify..he said it was ok to take ownership of an animal without apassport only if it wasn't sold..then the seller needs to provide the animal with a passport...
clear as mud!!!
i was told this by a DEFRA official at a Market about 2 years ago....
it came about as 4 cobs came off a Wagon straight onto another....with money changing hands but no passports....
Defra had a chat to the unloading party..no passports..Defra was told that the money was Diesel Money not purchase money...and as they technically weren't "sold" nothing illegal had taken place....
i asked him to clarify..he said it was ok to take ownership of an animal without apassport only if it wasn't sold..then the seller needs to provide the animal with a passport...
clear as mud!!!
Ranyhyn
Well-Known Member
Hmm - thought you werent allowed to pay anyone for transport either lol
D
Donkeymad
Guest
Op CANNOT just take her horse back.
New owner is NOT entitled to any money back.
A horse can be BOUGHT without a passport.
OP really needs to get advice from an Equine Specialist Solicitor.
New owner is NOT entitled to any money back.
A horse can be BOUGHT without a passport.
OP really needs to get advice from an Equine Specialist Solicitor.
the watcher
Well-Known Member
Yes it is theft. yes the Police often put this into the 'too difficult' pile and call it a civil dispute - but to be fair they don't always 'get' the concept of loaning.
Go back the police, but take with you somebody who can explain the elements of the offence (your property, remained your property, not somebody else's to dispose of as they chose, and they sold it) being completely clear that it was loan and not a gift, which is how these people usually get around these matters. Ideally a solicitor who deals in equestrian matters, a county BHS rep with their wits about them or a Horsewatch co-ordinator.
Go back the police, but take with you somebody who can explain the elements of the offence (your property, remained your property, not somebody else's to dispose of as they chose, and they sold it) being completely clear that it was loan and not a gift, which is how these people usually get around these matters. Ideally a solicitor who deals in equestrian matters, a county BHS rep with their wits about them or a Horsewatch co-ordinator.
MrsMozart
Just passing through...
Ditto turkey-dinner - the loanee did not have right to title, therefore no right to sell (unless on your behalf, whole different ball game).
Stinkbomb
Well-Known Member
Ditto turkey_dinner. It is theft but despite that the OP cant just go and get her horse back as technically it also belongs to the new owners. It would be subject to "an interpleader" which basically lets the courts decide who is the rightful owner - original owner or the innocent purchaser. The "new" owners would be under strict instructions they would not be allowed to sell or loan the animal on till a courts decision was made on the rightful owner.
The only problem i forsee is that the loanee, without a contract, could struggle to prove she didnt "give" the horse to the loaners. The loaners could say they were given the horse to do with as they wish. it would be one word against the other without further evidence. A lesson learnt i think
The only problem i forsee is that the loanee, without a contract, could struggle to prove she didnt "give" the horse to the loaners. The loaners could say they were given the horse to do with as they wish. it would be one word against the other without further evidence. A lesson learnt i think
lovnuggs
Well-Known Member
i would be making life hell for the bastards that you loaned your horse to in the first place.low lifes.i help at a small horse chariaty n with all the paper work in the world n all the home checks we do there are still nasty people who value money over someone elses pain we have had loan ponies sold on untill micro chips are in all neds with a good daterbase in place these morons will still get away with it
janeyhewitt
New User
Thanks for all the response.
This was reported to the police straight away but takes ages because of borders. Police did instigate RSPCA inspection quickly who said welfare was okay. Also this means RSPCA witness that horse was in that yard (in case she disappears). Very tempting to go and help myself and get her back but it is private property and that is breaking and entering! I registered her as 'stolen' with farmkey in case they tried to sell her on.
BHS legal advice was good, also house insurance offered free legal advice. A lawyer advised us it will take a long time to prove who is the legal owner esp as no paperwork, but outlined the procedure I need to start. I rang DEFRA as they are keeping a horse with no passport, not much joy, but DEFRA said trading standards have the clout. I was passed around 5 different trading standards areas but eventually one of them agreed to take up my complaint. I'll keep trying!
This was reported to the police straight away but takes ages because of borders. Police did instigate RSPCA inspection quickly who said welfare was okay. Also this means RSPCA witness that horse was in that yard (in case she disappears). Very tempting to go and help myself and get her back but it is private property and that is breaking and entering! I registered her as 'stolen' with farmkey in case they tried to sell her on.
BHS legal advice was good, also house insurance offered free legal advice. A lawyer advised us it will take a long time to prove who is the legal owner esp as no paperwork, but outlined the procedure I need to start. I rang DEFRA as they are keeping a horse with no passport, not much joy, but DEFRA said trading standards have the clout. I was passed around 5 different trading standards areas but eventually one of them agreed to take up my complaint. I'll keep trying!
ladyt25
Well-Known Member
Can I just say, i have not read all the replies BUT I recently was involved in a case where this had happened and I recognised the horse's name from having seen it under the stolen horses section on H&H. The police got involved and the horse was returned to the owner although the 3rd party who unwittingly (or not, it was sold off the back of a horsebox before making it to the sale ring!) bought the horse was rather obstructive.
The police NEED to get involved it is not a civil matter the loanee has broken the law! Sadly it is generally the innocent purchaser who loses out but then it is down to them to get the money back from the seller (with the help of the police/lawyer).
The police NEED to get involved it is not a civil matter the loanee has broken the law! Sadly it is generally the innocent purchaser who loses out but then it is down to them to get the money back from the seller (with the help of the police/lawyer).
Toby_Zaphod
Well-Known Member
I haven't read all the posts on this thread but I can tell you that you need to go back to the police & speak to a senior officer as you have been wrongly advised by whoever you initially spoke to.
This is definately not a Civil case, it is a criminal matter & should be dealt with properly by the police.
The police should take a statement from you to include the circumstances surrounding the loan, documentary proof, photographic proof etc that the horse is your property. They should then go & see the curent 'owner' of the horse & issue them with a Notice issued under Section 66 of The Police & Criminal Evidence Act. This prohibits them disposing of the horse & makes it a criminal offence to sell the animal on. Sometimes people realise that they will lose a case & their money so they try & sell the animal on with a view to recouping their outlay. As I say this makes it a serious criminal offence to do this after the notice is served. The police then must inform the Crown Prosecution Service that they have issued the notice & a report with the circumstances surrounding the issue.
The officers can then get a statement from the current 'owner' to include the circumstances surrounding how they came into possession of the horse.
Once this is all done they can arrest & interview the loaner of the horse who sold it on. The offence will be theft, plain & simple. A loan agreement makes it easier to prove but it is not essential.
The current 'owner' can never be the actual true owner as the ownership will never transfer from the original owner to them.
Go back to the police station you went to & ask to speak to a senior officer & give him the circumatances, he should be of the same opinion & shoud delegate an officer to do the enquiry.
You will win the case & you will get your horse back & the current 'owner' unfortunately will lose their money & although they may get a compensation order issued by a court they may have to take civil action to recover their money.
Good Luck & keep us all posted as to it's progression.
This is definately not a Civil case, it is a criminal matter & should be dealt with properly by the police.
The police should take a statement from you to include the circumstances surrounding the loan, documentary proof, photographic proof etc that the horse is your property. They should then go & see the curent 'owner' of the horse & issue them with a Notice issued under Section 66 of The Police & Criminal Evidence Act. This prohibits them disposing of the horse & makes it a criminal offence to sell the animal on. Sometimes people realise that they will lose a case & their money so they try & sell the animal on with a view to recouping their outlay. As I say this makes it a serious criminal offence to do this after the notice is served. The police then must inform the Crown Prosecution Service that they have issued the notice & a report with the circumstances surrounding the issue.
The officers can then get a statement from the current 'owner' to include the circumstances surrounding how they came into possession of the horse.
Once this is all done they can arrest & interview the loaner of the horse who sold it on. The offence will be theft, plain & simple. A loan agreement makes it easier to prove but it is not essential.
The current 'owner' can never be the actual true owner as the ownership will never transfer from the original owner to them.
Go back to the police station you went to & ask to speak to a senior officer & give him the circumatances, he should be of the same opinion & shoud delegate an officer to do the enquiry.
You will win the case & you will get your horse back & the current 'owner' unfortunately will lose their money & although they may get a compensation order issued by a court they may have to take civil action to recover their money.
Good Luck & keep us all posted as to it's progression.
FRESHMAN
Well-Known Member
As far as I am concerned you have the passport. A pony should not pass into a new owners hands without one. Therefore if the new owners proceeded without a passport it is there problem not yours. When something looks like a bargain that is too good to be true, it often is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go for it
FRESHMAN
Well-Known Member
The law says that all horses MUST have passports. It is a legal requirement
minkymoo
Well-Known Member
Slightly off topic here (sorry) but what is the point of a passport for a horse then? I genuinely do not mean to be thick, but how can you get stopped and asked for a passport when out for a hack and have to produce it within 3 hours, yet be able to buy a horse without one.
I really do not understand the point of it all??
I know someone who got a horse on a 'loan with a view to buy' that was 2 1/2 years ago and I doubt very much it's owners even know where he is. Yet, she has his passport so how would they prove the horse was theirs & not hers?
Personally, I think all horses should be microchipped and you should change the details when you sell it on. This passport business is a load of sh!t.
I really do not understand the point of it all??
I know someone who got a horse on a 'loan with a view to buy' that was 2 1/2 years ago and I doubt very much it's owners even know where he is. Yet, she has his passport so how would they prove the horse was theirs & not hers?
Personally, I think all horses should be microchipped and you should change the details when you sell it on. This passport business is a load of sh!t.