Loanee claiming ownership of horse and keeping passport.

[ QUOTE ]
lexie, I read it as the loanee still had the original passport hence OP would have a sticker then but no passport to put it in

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is exactly right....but presumably then she could contact HPA and say she had 'lost' the passport and could they please send her a new one?!
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lexie, I read it as the loanee still had the original passport hence OP would have a sticker then but no passport to put it in

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is exactly right....but presumably then she could contact HPA and say she had 'lost' the passport and could they please send her a new one?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, because I initially tried to do things properly and told the HPA what my so-called "friend" had done, there is now a record of a dispute of ownership on file. Because of this, they will not issue a new passport to me. In addition, the HPA also contacted the loanee, who told them that she does still have the passport but will not hand it over as the horse has been "stolen" from her. Therefore, that's another reason they won't issue a new one - because the latest owner says it isn't lost.

It's very frustrating - I'm just going round in circles with the occasional brick wall popping up.
confused.gif
 
I think it's time to get tough. They shouldn't have transfered the ownership to her in the first place, and if they are holding the matter because the horse is alleged to be stolen, they need to tell you what their course of action is. I think you need to write making a formal complaint. Take legal advice, because she is slandering you to them for a start isn't she, and that can be proved. Attack her on all fronts and fight your way through this.
You haven't said if you are a BHS Gold member, but if you are talk to them, even your household insurance might provide legal advice about recovering a stolen item of value - like a passport.
 
Erm, HPA now seem to say 10 days!

Change of Ownership

The Horse Passport Agency can only update passports which it has issued. If we did not issue your passport then you need to contact the organisation that did issue it (this information is normally contained on the front page of the passport) for further advice.

When you purchase a horse the law states you have just 30 days to notify the organisation that issued the passport. The Horse Passport Agency will still accept late registrations and does not penlaise you.

Our On-Line Services (option in top left hand menu) allows you to notify us of a Change Of Ownership without the need to post the passport to us. Within 10 days you will receive a receipt label in the post with instructions about attaching it to your passport.

I think someone needs to send a sols letter to the HPA - this is disgusting!
 
Hi Hound dog,
I was involved in a similar situation but from the other side of the fence - Long story cut short - I loaned a horse on our yard, then agreed to buy him, paid the money but they wouldn't hand over the passport and claimed they still owned the horse and disappeared, money in tow.
I didn't know where I stood and in the end I just pursued them for the money - but to this day I regret letting this horse go and not fighting.
Anyhow point being afterwards when I looked into it passport did not constitute ownership, it was illegal to sell a horse without the passport, so technically they broke the law and I owned the horse. The police wouldn't get involved citing it as a civil matter - I was furious!
They also spread ridiculous rumours, bad mouthing etc. It was not fun and was extremely stressful, however I got through it and now look back and take learning from it!
Good luck!
 
Just to add, I'm not a BHS member, I didn't renew my membership after I let my horses go
frown.gif


However, I do have friends who are members so perhaps they could call for advice on my behalf? Mind you, it's probably worth renewing my membership if you think that they can advise on this.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If you are not a BHS member do you have legal expenses cover on your house insurance?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I do. Would this scenario be covered?
 
Yep, I suggested that a while back, do people think that would work?
House insurance may well cover you, just ring and ask.
 
I must confess I have thought about registering him with another agency, but have two questions:

(a) He's now two years old, would I get in trouble or be questioned as to why he hasn't got a passport already

and

(b) He's microchipped (and that's registered to me, obviously) and his microchip number is on the original passport. Would the vet scan him as a matter of routine before doing the drawings for the new passport?
 
Can the original passport not be reported as stolen, and along with a police crime reference number, tell the passport issuers as much? It does seem rather awful that any loaner could 'update' the passport like this.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Can the original passport not be reported as stolen, and along with a police crime reference number, tell the passport issuers as much? It does seem rather awful that any loaner could 'update' the passport like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

the complication is that the 'victim' is the issuing agency who own the passport, not the horse owner - and they are not cooperating
 
Ah, I am with you. Ish.

Given that human passports belong to the government and not strictly to 'you', how come you can report them stolen? And indeed have to if you want them replaced. (Sorry, my brain is ticking away, feel free to pat me on the head and tell me to run along).
 
[ QUOTE ]
A passport is not proof of ownership.You have receipts for the horse so can prove it is yours.Your 'friend' knows she is in the wrong ,as like you say she hasn't gone to the police and said her horse has been stolen! .I don't know how you can go about getting the passport back though.
If you look at my horses passports, one is still owned by the MOD and my mare is still owned by mother hen
grin.gif
I don't think i have updated the pony's passport either and we have had her 4 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to hijak...but which one is ex MOD! Did you get them form Melton Mowbry (sp)???
smile.gif
 
Sadly, the HPA are the biggest load of rubbish ever invented; their passports just are not worth the bad paper they're printed on. Would you believe that they have, or used to, racehorses running in the name of the HPA?!
When I had to change details with one of their passports, I fell foul of the 30 day rule and had owned her for nearly a year when I sold her. They would not accept I owned her and went to the owner before me; luckily we were still in touch so I warned her they would be in touch. She rang them to say horse was no longer hers but they still needed her signature within 10 days.
Mind you, if she hadn't signed and returned it by then they would still have changed the passport to the new owner so it's all a load of codswallop I'm afraid and is probably how your 'friend' has got away with it but it doesn't answer why you were not contacted by them in the first place so they are in the wrong there!
While I'm not advocating you do change passport agency, then do it before July as otherwise I believe there are new regulations coming in. Also remember you will need to restart the vaccinations otherwise you might be barred from some competitions because you haven't the full history.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Can I just ask how she got your log in details and changed all this?

[/ QUOTE ]

She didn't need someone elses log in details - you simply create yourself an account, type in the passport number, click on bought a horse (or something similar) and they then send out the new ownership sticker to stick in the passport. My horse's breeder did not have to do anything when I changed ownership on his HPA passport.
 
Very strange as the HPA require a signature from the name on the Passport before changing the name. They send a letter to the current named onwer and will not change the ownership details until this is returned completed.
I would challenge them over this.
Good luck in sorting it out, sounds like a complete nightmare.
 
Gosh, I am getting annoyed just reading this!

LET'S ALL EMAIL THE HORSE PASSPORT AGENCY AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS RIDICULOUS THING. THEY MUST REACT AT SOME POINT!
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]


Sorry to hijak...but which one is ex MOD! Did you get them form Melton Mowbry (sp)???
smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Otto ( 5th pic in sig ) is ex kings troop.I actually bought him from a riding school in Lincolnshire.He left the DAC in sept 05,then his new owner got pregnant so sold him to the riding school to use for there adult novices.They slung him in a field for the winter and i bought him in april 06 so the poor boy had 3 homes in the space of 7 months.
 
[ QUOTE ]
thought there had to be a signature on the passport to change ownership, and that the issuing agency would have to see the passport and signature to issue new ownership

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't read all the replies so hope I am not repeating someone else.

Both times I sold ponies, the new owner sent the passport off to be updated and both times I received a letter from the agencies stating that someone was applying to update the passport. If I didn't agree I was to contatthem, and if I did agree then I need do nothing.

Did you never receive a letter from the agency?
 
It is actually quite cheap to go to Small Claims Court to resolve an ownership dispute (about £100).

Although you now HAVE the horse, you don't have its passport which puts you in breach of the law - and the loanee is refusing to give it to you back - and is disputing your ownership with the HPA so you can't get a replacement.

I would NOT advise you to get a new passport from another PIO - what happens if your ex-friend steals the horse back - still with its original passport in her possession??

Prior to Small Claims, you are offered Arbitration - and that may get a result without you needing to go to Court.

You need to sue her for the return of the passport - and you want the Court to declare you to be the legal owner. You DON'T need a loan agreement in place to prove this - your original ownership, the fact you now have the horse and she has no proof she ever bought it from you, AND the fact she didn't report the horse stolen to the police - those facts on their own are probably enough! (I've won a case from the other side of the fence with only a little more!)

You don't need to use a solicitor - the process is very simple and - if it does come to court - is handled by a senior judge sitting in chambers. Check out http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/index.htm
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]


Sorry to hijak...but which one is ex MOD! Did you get them form Melton Mowbry (sp)???
smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Otto ( 5th pic in sig ) is ex kings troop.I actually bought him from a riding school in Lincolnshire.He left the DAC in sept 05,then his new owner got pregnant so sold him to the riding school to use for there adult novices.They slung him in a field for the winter and i bought him in april 06 so the poor boy had 3 homes in the space of 7 months.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah ha!!
smile.gif
He looks like fun!!
smile.gif
 
I'd try the police again and say it's fraud and get a crime no. if no luck there go to the small claims court they are brill. They should always have to have a signature otherwise saying if you agree do nothing then she could have done a change of address first so you would never have known? Ask what address they sent the notice to that may make them realise that either they never sent one or she had committed fraud.

Please let us know how you get on this is terrible.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Sorry, Lochpearl you got into trouble because you sold your horse without a valid passport I think. Maybe someone else can correct me if I'm wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

think your actually talking a load of rubbish. Not that it is any of your business but if Quirky sends off passport with person A's name in it, but sends off copy of bill of sale from person B to prove ownership, person B will get in trouble for not updating the ownership on the passport and Quirky if she has owned horse for longer than 30 days will also be warned of this. I could not send off the passport as I decided to sell the horse less than a week after I got him and I needed his passport to sell him. And yes I DO know what I'm talking about.
tongue.gif
 
Call the passport issuing agency, tell them that you are the owner, that the passport has been misapropriated and the name changed, and that they are thereby aiding and abetting this woman's attempted theft of your horse through their negligent failure to perform the appropriate checks. That should make them want to help you.
Frankly, the passport agency seem rubbish to not have any proper checks in place, and I would look to re-register with a better one unless this one sorts it out fast rather than carrying on with their rubbish. If the new agency ask why you need a new passport, say the old one was stolen and the issuers werent very helpful so you have chosen to use a new agency. All very true.
I would definitely keep records of all your dealings with this mad friend too, cos it would definitely help to have some evidence in place if she decides she wants to challenge you for ownership, but I wouldnt commence proceedings about trying to prove your ownership at the moment as it backs her into a corner and forces her to fight you for the horse (or back down, which in my experience mad friends dont do).

P.S. the fact that I have to suggest the first course of action, and can suggest the second both show that the passporting system in this country is worse than useless.
 
(This is to Lochpearl).
No need to be so bliddy rude, I wasn't being nasty to you, and said I was sure someone would correct me if I was wrong wrong. I had it in my mind that it is illegal to sell a horse without a passport, that's all. What a nasty over-reaction to a harmless post.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top