Loaner Issues

[BeansNsausages]

Her reply has completely changed my mind. I would be removing the horse.

 

[TheChestnutThing]

Late vaccinations isn't great, but with an older horse who has a low key lifestyle, I personally don't think it's earthshattering, if that were an owner's decision.

But not to provide the appropriate level of care for a horse, entrusted to a loaner, then no, that's not good enough and shows a lack of respect to both owner and horse. Not least, it will result in higher costs to the loaner to restart the appropriate vaccinations! (and I'd be cross at my older horse having to have a higher dosage of vaccinations than it normally would get, had the vaccinations been maintained).

Do we know what the worming routine is? I'd be as/more worried that the loaner is skimping on those protocols....

she has admitted to not worming him…

 

[Bucked_off]

At the end of the day, it's your horse. If you stated that you wanted the tack used on him to be that which was sold to her and it was put into the contract, then it should be. Even if it turned out that the horse went well in the other tack, this was something that should have been discussed with you before she made decisions that went against the contract. And the horse's healthcare should never have been neglected. Even if what is happening is not harming the horse, it shows a lack of respect for you as the owner, and consequently, the horse.
Best of luck with this!

 

[Sossigpoker]

she has admitted to not worming him…

This sounds like general neglect now.

 

[ponynutz]

Her reply has completely changed my mind. I would be removing the horse.

Agreed.

 

[Dave's Mam]

All sounds a bit out of hand now. Time to bring pony home.

 

[Dave's Mam]

I was giving the loaner the benefit of the doubt that they had been arranging care via different vet, edt etc.

 

[TheChestnutThing]

She has booked vacs and dentist and gave me a mouthful about the bedding but apparently put more in, I will be doing weekly visits unannounced aka I am in the area and will message and tell her I am just popping by to feed carrots. I however, have asked for a space at my current yard for him (we are full and have a waiting list due to so many yard closures in our area).

 

[Leandy]

Ok, so if things have been agreed as part of the contract then of course it is reasonable to expect that the loaner will keep their side of the bargain, so a warning shot to that effect does no harm at all. However, first lesson to learn. You must always keep a close eye on the welfare of a horse out on loan. You are ultimately responsible for their welfare after all so you should pop in at least a few times a year just to check. Having said that, I'm really not seeing true welfare issues here particularly and you have to accept that not everyone has the same standards and that that is ok. Of the points you note, I personally wouldn't be that bothered provided the horse overall is looking well cared for and happy. Specifically, it is common to use no or little bedding over rubber matting so that is not an issue. Not my preference but little different from them lying down in a field. Teeth a month over due, not an issue so long as they get done soon. Vaccinations overdue by 5 months - not on, if there is any chance of the horse competing in the future I would be making the loaner redo the vaccinations but from a medical perspective, not an issue so long as done soon. Lack of muscle - so what? Why are you interested in muscle tone in a semi-retired horse? All older horses tend to lose muscle. Not wormed - not great but again if the horse looks well, not a current welfare issue. If you don't trust her to worm properly just take a wormer with you and give it to him when you visit a couple of times a year so you know it is generally kept on top of. Bridle and bit - so long as they fit, so what? Personally, I would not end a loan for any of this but would supervise a bit better to get things back on track. It would be a whole lot more hassle and cost to have the horse back and another loaner could easily be worse.

 

[TheChestnutThing]

Ok, so if things have been agreed as part of the contract then of course it is reasonable to expect that the loaner will keep their side of the bargain, so a warning shot to that effect does no harm at all. However, first lesson to learn. You must always keep a close eye on the welfare of a horse out on loan. You are ultimately responsible for their welfare after all so you should pop in at least a few times a year just to check. Having said that, I'm really not seeing true welfare issues here particularly and you have to accept that not everyone has the same standards and that that is ok. Of the points you note, I personally wouldn't be that bothered provided the horse overall is looking well cared for and happy. Specifically, it is common to use no or little bedding over rubber matting so that is not an issue. Not my preference but little different from them lying down in a field. Teeth a month over due, not an issue so long as they get done soon. Vaccinations overdue by 5 months - not on, if there is any chance of the horse competing in the future I would be making the loaner redo the vaccinations but from a medical perspective, not an issue so long as done soon. Lack of muscle - so what? Why are you interested in muscle tone in a semi-retired horse? All older horses tend to lose muscle. Not wormed - not great but again if the horse looks well, not a current welfare issue. If you don't trust her to worm properly just take a wormer with you and give it to him when you visit a couple of times a year so you know it is generally kept on top of. Bridle and bit - so long as they fit, so what? Personally, I would not end a loan for any of this but would supervise a bit better to get things back on track. It would be a whole lot more hassle and cost to have the horse back and another loaner could easily be worse.

Leandy, points read and taken, but at the end of the day, he is my horse. I am sure if you were in the same boat you would feel the same? I also did not say I did not supervise a couple of times a year (that would be twice a year). But thank you kindly for this input.

 

[ester]

She gave you a mouthful ?

 

[Leandy]

Leandy, points read and taken, but at the end of the day, he is my horse. I am sure if you were in the same boat you would feel the same? I also did not say I did not supervise a couple of times a year (that would be twice a year). But thank you kindly for this input.

No, I wouldn't quite, hence I was explaining how I would feel and what I would do in your circumstances. I currently have a pony out on loan and have loaned out another in the past (which was where I learned the lesson of the need to continuously keep a close eye on their welfare through the loan, and not just at the beginning). I have also leased a horse in the past myself. You can't expect a loaner to do everything exactly as you would, that is too much in my view and as long as the horse is generally well and happy, that is the main thing. There are other ways of managing some elements if you are more bothered about them than the loaner eg you could take over management of routine teeth, vaccs and wormer if need be and the loaner is too relaxed there. I forgot to cover the fact that she let her daughter ride also. I agree that if you have specified specific people only to ride then that should be abided by. Having said that, is there an actual problem with the daughter riding? If not then I would simply add her to the contract as a rider and re-emphasise the restrictions on permitted riders. If the horse is not suitable for the daughter then I would agree there is a trust issue there but if there isn't a safety or welfare issue then I would be fairly relaxed about a semi-retired horse. It doesn't sound like a competition horse that could be ruined or harmed by less expert riders.

 

[Pinkvboots]

No, I wouldn't quite, hence I was explaining how I would feel and what I would do in your circumstances. I currently have a pony out on loan and have loaned out another in the past (which was where I learned the lesson of the need to continuously keep a close eye on their welfare through the loan, and not just at the beginning). I have also leased a horse in the past myself. You can't expect a loaner to do everything exactly as you would, that is too much in my view and as long as the horse is generally well and happy, that is the main thing. There are other ways of managing some elements if you are more bothered about them than the loaner eg you could take over management of routine teeth, vaccs and wormer if need be and the loaner is too relaxed there. I forgot to cover the fact that she let her daughter ride also. I agree that if you have specified specific people only to ride then that should be abided by. Having said that, is there an actual problem with the daughter riding? If not then I would simply add her to the contract as a rider and re-emphasise the restrictions on permitted riders. If the horse is not suitable for the daughter then I would agree there is a trust issue there but if there isn't a safety or welfare issue then I would be fairly relaxed about a semi-retired horse. It doesn't sound like a competition horse that could be ruined or harmed by less expert riders.

Errrr sorry but you can expect a loaner to look after your horse the same way, lack of bedding letting vaccinations lapse, not worming and no dental checks is not acceptable, and the fact she kicked off about when challenged would be enough for me to get down there and collect the horse.

 

[Leandy]

The OP asked for thoughts on the matter and "what would you do"? I just answered with another perspective. Not sure why anyone needs to argue about it? Obviously I'm more relaxed than some. If things are basically ok or easily fixable with some give and take, I would try to work with the loaner rather than diving in and whisking the horse away because I would have had good reason not to want the horse for myself at present.

 

[TheChestnutThing]

The OP asked for thoughts on the matter and "what would you do"? I just answered with another perspective. Not sure why anyone needs to argue about it? Obviously I'm more relaxed than some. If things are basically ok or easily fixable with some give and take, I would try to work with the loaner rather than diving in and whisking the horse away because I would have had good reason not to want the horse for myself at present.

Which is what i have done...everything is booked and I will will do more check ups...

 

[Archangel]

and gave me a mouthful about the bedding

She really doesn't seem to be mature enough to loan your horse and take on the responsibilities that go with it. They appear to be skimping on all the things that matter whilst fully enjoying all the benefits.

 

[Shilasdair]

No loaner will keep the horse, or ride the horse exactly as you would.
Now I do agree that the horse needs his vaccinations done (at her expense) but a month overdue for the dentist isn't usually fatal. And the point in rubber matting is that it replaces the need for so much bedding.
The horse must be basically fine, or you would have taken him back.
Therefore I think you need to work WITH the loaner, rather than being hostile (and yes, your original post does sound hostile).

 

[AmyMay]

No loaner will keep the horse, or ride the horse exactly as you would.
Now I do agree that the horse needs his vaccinations done (at her expense) but a month overdue for the dentist isn't usually fatal. And the point in rubber matting is that it replaces the need for so much bedding.
The horse must be basically fine, or you would have taken him back.
Therefore I think you need to work WITH the loaner, rather than being hostile (and yes, your original post does sound hostile).

Thank God for sense.

 

[ycbm]

Yes it is sense but I could not leave my horse with someone who "gave me a mouthful" for requesting that he has more bedding.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

If any loaner 'gave me a mouthful' then I would be collecting the horse straight away.

In fact they did, and I did - brushes were being hurled across the yard at me - and thank goodness I called time when I did, or the horse would have been even more broken than it soon turned out she already was .

 

[Bucked_off]

I think that even if they're not issues that necessarily are harmful to the horse (Although I would be VERY upset if someone didn't give my horse his dewormer or vaccinations), they aren't acceptable either if they're what you want for your horse. At the end of the day, it's YOUR horse, not your loaner's, and what YOU say goes, not what she decides after you've clarified you don't want something to change.
And I find it unacceptable that she's giving you a mouthful. In my mind it's your horse and so she should be listening to you if she wants to be anywhere near it.
This all being said, if you were to remove the horse, another loaner may treat them even worse.

 

[AmyMay]

Yes it is sense but I could not leave my horse with someone who "gave me a mouthful" for requesting that he has more bedding.
.

That is a very fair point. And yes, if that happened, the horse would have been collected immediately (if it were mine).

 

[Gingerwitch]

I think that even if they're not issues that necessarily are harmful to the horse (Although I would be VERY upset if someone didn't give my horse his dewormer or vaccinations), they aren't acceptable either if they're what you want for your horse. At the end of the day, it's YOUR horse, not your loaner's, and what YOU say goes, not what she decides after you've clarified you don't want something to change.
And I find it unacceptable that she's giving you a mouthful. In my mind it's your horse and so she should be listening to you if she wants to be anywhere near it.
This all being said, if you were to remove the horse, another loaner may treat them even worse.

Thats why moving horses on loan is a minefield

 

[TheChestnutThing]

No loaner will keep the horse, or ride the horse exactly as you would.
Now I do agree that the horse needs his vaccinations done (at her expense) but a month overdue for the dentist isn't usually fatal. And the point in rubber matting is that it replaces the need for so much bedding.
The horse must be basically fine, or you would have taken him back.
Therefore I think you need to work WITH the loaner, rather than being hostile (and yes, your original post does sound hostile).

My original post was not directed at the loaner, it told a story. It was not hostile. Hostile would be my way or the highway. Hostile means I am unfriendly. Which I was not. As an owner I was requesting things that needed to be done be done....so, put if this way, if someone who asks you to do things that are someone mandatory, and you don't do them, and they ask again, does this make them unfriendly? No it does not. Rubber matting was not meant to replace bedding. It's a common misconception, and again, an owners wish.

 

[TheChestnutThing]

I think that even if they're not issues that necessarily are harmful to the horse (Although I would be VERY upset if someone didn't give my horse his dewormer or vaccinations), they aren't acceptable either if they're what you want for your horse. At the end of the day, it's YOUR horse, not your loaner's, and what YOU say goes, not what she decides after you've clarified you don't want something to change.
And I find it unacceptable that she's giving you a mouthful. In my mind it's your horse and so she should be listening to you if she wants to be anywhere near it.
This all being said, if you were to remove the horse, another loaner may treat them even worse.

We are thankfully looking at a property this weekend which will allow me to have him back and in turn have my horses under my own roof.