Loaning and vets bill. Who is liable.

be positive said:
The insurance company should have been made aware that the horse was not in your care, if the worst had happened you may have found they did not pay out, as you had insurance and I expect the loaners thought they were covered, which they would have been if you had kept the insurance company informed, you are lucky something really serious didn't happen, your contract with the insurance company IS void as the horse has been out of your care.

As you failed to keep the horse insured properly, it is probably in the loan agreement that it would be insured, then I think the loaners have a fair reason to get help paying the bill which would be paid by the insurance if you had kept them informed.
Click to expand...

Surely this isn't right BP?

I've never had an insurance policy that demanded that I tell them if the horse was in full or part livery or loaned to someone else, as long as it wasn't used in a riding school. Am I completely out of date with insurance requirements?
 
Suby2 said:
Sorry to hijack - opinions needed. Have had loan pony on loan for less app 6 weeks. (Agreed to a six month loan) Arranged for vet to come to do his jabs and check his teeth for which he was sedated. Paid the bill as I am responsible for vet bills while he is in my care.

However - while vet was checking him for his jabs she noticed a small mass on his third eyelid which she thinks is a squamous cell carcinoma and advised it had probably been there for at least 6 months. She thought it should be removed sooner rather than later.

In view of the fact that it is pre existing should the costs be covered by the owner or me or shared??
Click to expand...

In this situation I would say that the owner would be responsible for arranging and paying for it.
 
ycbm said:
Surely this isn't right BP?

I've never had an insurance policy that demanded that I tell them if the horse was in full or part livery or loaned to someone else, as long as it wasn't used in a riding school. Am I completely out of date with insurance requirements?
Click to expand...

If the horse is not in your care, so livery would count if it moved even on a short term basis, they should be informed of the new address the horse is kept at, I don't insure mine but my liveries do and they have my address as the place the horse is kept, if one went on loan and moved to a different yard/ different person responsible then the insurance will be void if the company are not aware and something goes wrong.

It is a loophole but in some cases it will be fair enough for them to refuse to pay, the OP knows her insurance will be void if she tries to claim which makes keeping the horse insured while it was on loan totally pointless and in this case I think unfair on the loaner who probably thought the pony was fully insured.

Just to add they will not demand you tell them they will ask where the accident/ injury happened and if it was somewhere it should not have been, such as hunting when it was not insured for that, then the claim could be rejected.
 
Last edited:
be positive said:
This should be covered by the owners insurance and shows how important it is to have cover for something on loan, you need to speak to the owner ASAP to see what they want to do, I had one that had the same condition last year no sign until it flared up rapidly and aggressively, as he was retired and would not have coped with box rest and potentially losing the eye we made the decision to pts, I am sure yours will not be so serious but if the pony belonged to me I would want to be fully involved with the treatment plan from day 1.
Click to expand...

Sorry, should have mentioned that I have explained everything to the owner. Now waiting to hear from her after she has spoken to the vet.
 
ycbm said:
Surely this isn't right BP?

I've never had an insurance policy that demanded that I tell them if the horse was in full or part livery or loaned to someone else, as long as it wasn't used in a riding school. Am I completely out of date with insurance requirements?
Click to expand...
Butting in here, but yes, you would need to inform your insurance company that the horse was out on loan.

I insure with SEIB, and whlist they are OK to continue with the insurance whilst my horse is out on loan, they expect to be notified and to be sent a copy of the loan agreement.
 
southerncomfort said:
I've loaned twice. My attitude is that while a horse is in my care, all day to day costs associated with horse keeping, including vets fees, are my responsibility.

Your contract is clear. I suppose it doesn't hurt to ask the question, however if she gets shirty about you saying no I'd be bringing the horse back home ASAP.
Click to expand...

I'm getting him back she's not wanting to pay all of it because I'm having him back.
 
Regardless of insurance the point is she wants me to pay half of the vet bill, I'm not liable for paying.
I kept my insurance running so when I got him back it was ready.
I had to have insurance as he went to a college before a private loan so they already knew he was not with me.
 
Having been on both side of loans I would say that the onus is on her to pay. She called the vet, accident occured whilst she had care of him and your contract states this. I had a pony on loan that I had bloods run on. High level cushings, pony wasn't in good health and I was needing to make a decision. I paid the bill, it was my responsibility.

I hope you get the situation resolved amicably.
 
Suby2 said:
Sorry to hijack - opinions needed. Have had loan pony on loan for less app 6 weeks. (Agreed to a six month loan) Arranged for vet to come to do his jabs and check his teeth for which he was sedated. Paid the bill as I am responsible for vet bills while he is in my care.

However - while vet was checking him for his jabs she noticed a small mass on his third eyelid which she thinks is a squamous cell carcinoma and advised it had probably been there for at least 6 months. She thought it should be removed sooner rather than later.

In view of the fact that it is pre existing should the costs be covered by the owner or me or shared??
Click to expand...

Eyes dont wait. I would tell owner immediately and honestly give notice, as you won't be able to use the horse for the recovery period. It was only 6 month loan, so unless owner is willing to make it longer - send it back.
 
sarahmisty25 said:
Regardless of insurance the point is she wants me to pay half of the vet bill, I'm not liable for paying.
I kept my insurance running so when I got him back it was ready.
I had to have insurance as he went to a college before a private loan so they already knew he was not with me.
Click to expand...

So why not let the insurance pay, that is what it is there for, you are not personally liable but if you loaned to them with the loaners thinking he was covered by insurance for vets bills then you have misled them, if he had been really seriously injured running up a bill of thousands would you expect them to pay when there was insurance in place to cover the bills?

They are responsible for settling with the vet but often if the horse is not insured the treatment may be done with less expense involved, taking it in and treating could have cost far more than treating at home, if they thought it was covered then they may not have considered all the options.
 
be positive said:
So why not let the insurance pay, that is what it is there for, you are not personally liable but if you loaned to them with the loaners thinking he was covered by insurance for vets bills then you have misled them, if he had been really seriously injured running up a bill of thousands would you expect them to pay when there was insurance in place to cover the bills?

They are responsible for settling with the vet but often if the horse is not insured the treatment may be done with less expense involved, taking it in and treating could have cost far more than treating at home, if they thought it was covered then they may not have considered all the options.
Click to expand...

good point
 
if the loan agreement stated she was liable for vets bills then it's a done deal...she's liable! If she chose not to insure that's her fault (unless it was you who called the vet..then the contract is with you) if however you told her you would keep him insured and through this she assumed he was covered then I think morally you should be making a claim on your insurance. I'm fairly confident I'm correct on this...we nearly had to take legal action over a £7000 vet bill earlier this year!
 
sarahmisty25 said:
My horse has been on loan for a year now. I'm getting him back soon though. He sustained an injury whilst on loan. I've been asked to cover 50% of the vets fees even though I have a contract stating that she is liable to pay insurance or pay for the vets fees whilst horse is in her care. Thoughts on this please.
Click to expand...

They are liable as far as I am concerned if it is a full loan if that is in the terms and conditions
 
She is liable for either the vets fees or the excess for the insurance. When my horse went on load I had that written into the contract that the loner paid either the vets. I'll or the excess as I kept his insurance running in my name so that I knew it was paid.

So pick one as she is fully liable for either and I would state this to her. It also means that if the insurance is paying any complications will be covered and not footed by you when he comes home.
 
As the horse was on full loan and stated in your contract then the loaner should pay.
The fact that you are having horse back is irrelevant.

However was it made clear that the loaner needed to get her own insurance or foot any vets fees?
If they were under the illusion you still had horse insured they probably thought you had informed the insurance company of the horse location and loan agreement and they may have thought they only needed to pay the excess.
 
Has he been insured by you the whole time he's been on loan and were the company aware that he was out on loan? If the answer to both those questions is "yes" then why would there be a problem with them covering the claim? Surely the loaner is liable for the excess provided they pay out (but the whole bill if not). If the policy was only recently taken out in preparation for horse coming back (ie AFTER the injury occurred) or the company were not aware he was on loan and so can't pay as T&Cs of policy have been breached (in which case that's a bit of an oversight as it's perfectly possible to keep the insurance in your name but allow claims to vets bills incurred whilst on loan, that's what I did precisely to avoid this sort of thing, although I never had to put a claim in so can't say how well it works!) then it is the responsibility of the loaner to pick up the bill. Whether you ultimately decide to contribute anything depends on how much you wish to stay on good terms with them.
 
It doesn't sound like the sort of visit that would even be worth the excess! Tell her to read her contract over again and come back to you
 
I wouldn't have thought the bill was high enough to go much beyond the excess? How much is she asking. I've loaned 3 horses over the years and always paid vets fees even for pre existing conditions. If it was the right pony/horse for us then it was worth taking on the cost. Though if we loan out our pony I may well provide her supplement to ensure she gets it or she'll come back lame.
I can't see how she can make you pay. Highlight your agreement, take your horse back as arranged. Vets will ask her for the payment as she instructed them.
 
ycbm said:
Surely this isn't right BP?

I've never had an insurance policy that demanded that I tell them if the horse was in full or part livery or loaned to someone else, as long as it wasn't used in a riding school. Am I completely out of date with insurance requirements?
Click to expand...

I have three horses here on loan agreements over the years and the owner did inform the insurance company each time .
Good job too in Fatties case .
 
Goldenstar said:
I have three horses here on loan agreements over the years and the owner did inform the insurance company each time .
Good job too in Fatties case .
Click to expand...

Yes, when they are on loan it needs to be very clear to the insurers this is the case, who the loaner is and who the owner is. I've dealt with both NFU and KBIS and both have wanted a copy of loan agreement on file.

As an aside I would always recommend the owner holding the policy in their name. The loaner can refund the premium but as an owner you are at massive risk of having a broken horse dumped on your doorstep and in those cases you would need an ongoing policy in your name else it comes straight out of your own pocket, irrespective of what a non enforceable loan agreement might say!
 
If the contract states that she will pay vet fees incurred while the horse is in her care for any injury / lameness / illness - then she is bound to the contract I would have thought. However, the practicality is that actually getting them to pay can be difficult.
 
ycbm said:
Surely this isn't right BP?

I've never had an insurance policy that demanded that I tell them if the horse was in full or part livery or loaned to someone else, as long as it wasn't used in a riding school. Am I completely out of date with insurance requirements?
Click to expand...

Yep, I'm with KBIS and I am the loaner (horse from a charity). As the horse isn't mine and doesn't have any market value as such, my insurance is all a bit odd, but it is noted on there that she's a loan horse.

The policy is in my name and they have paid out for incidents as though she was my own horse. Only difference is I assume I wouldn't get any payout if she had to be pts.
 
ponypatters said:
If the contract states that she will pay vet fees incurred while the horse is in her care for any injury / lameness / illness - then she is bound to the contract I would have thought. However, the practicality is that actually getting them to pay can be difficult.
Click to expand...

If the loaner called the vet then they have contracted the vet to treat. They are liable to pay the invoice and they are the person the vet would pursue if non-payment occurs.
 
ihatework said:
Yes, when they are on loan it needs to be very clear to the insurers this is the case, who the loaner is and who the owner is. I've dealt with both NFU and KBIS and both have wanted a copy of loan agreement on file.

As an aside I would always recommend the owner holding the policy in their name. The loaner can refund the premium but as an owner you are at massive risk of having a broken horse dumped on your doorstep and in those cases you would need an ongoing policy in your name else it comes straight out of your own pocket, irrespective of what a non enforceable loan agreement might say!
Click to expand...

Mine is going on loan soon. I'll be keeping on the insurance & checked with my insurer regarding loaning. They said they weren't interested in where he is kept or with whom but would make a note on my file that he is on loan.

I've also taken legal advice from a solicitor via the BHS legal helpline regarding the contract. The solicitor said a signed, witnessed loan agreement IS enforceable in court. In fact she said it would be enough to have emailed loaner the contract & received a reply saying just 'OK' to make it legally enforceable as would be a deemed contract. she told me it isn't necessary for the contract to be checked or witnessed by a solicitor to make it enforceable, I just needed to ensure I've been totally honest throughout the contract.
 
milliepops said:
Yep, I'm with KBIS and I am the loaner (horse from a charity). As the horse isn't mine and doesn't have any market value as such, my insurance is all a bit odd, but it is noted on there that she's a loan horse.

The policy is in my name and they have paid out for incidents as though she was my own horse. Only difference is I assume I wouldn't get any payout if she had to be pts.
Click to expand...

Yes - although I only share my boy, I insisted on paying insurance as I knew he wasn't insured and didn't want to break him and not be able to afford his treatment. His owner is my best friend so we don't have a contract but the insurance company insisted on having a contract. We just used the BHS standard one and sent it off to them. Even though it was my policy the insurance company stated she would get any payment in the case of death.

We stopped his insurance when they excluded so much AND hiked the premiums up when he hit 17. I carried on paying into my own account though, which is just as well as I'm expecting a £2k bill from the vet hospital for him any day now.
 
I have 2 on loan. Am responsible for any vets bills whilst in my care.

Same applies for the pony I have out on loan, I expect loaner to pay for anything that happens while she is with her.

It's all in the contracts we have.

Hope you get sorted out and pony is OK.
 
milliepops said:
Yep, I'm with KBIS and I am the loaner (horse from a charity). As the horse isn't mine and doesn't have any market value as such, my insurance is all a bit odd, but it is noted on there that she's a loan horse.

The policy is in my name and they have paid out for incidents as though she was my own horse. Only difference is I assume I wouldn't get any payout if she had to be pts.
Click to expand...

I had a PTS claim for a loan horse which I had insured, the insurance company only required confirmation from the owner that I had taken out the insurance policy before they paid out to me
 
My insurance has a clause that specifies if the horse is on loan any death payment goes to the owner not the loaner regardless of who took the policy out.

I always insure them when they are on loan and the loaner pays me back. I cant imagine a horse needing the vet and me refusing to claim on my insurance. You have to declare it anyway. It makes it even worse that you are taking the horse back. In that instance I'd have covered the whole thing!
 
Why are people not reading the thread? The horse owners insurance has refused to pay out because they were unaware the horse was out on loan. What does it matter that the horse is coming back to his owner either? The injury and treatment happened whilst he was in the loaners care and there is a contract in place stating that the loaner is liable for any vet bills incurred whilst the horse is in their care. The loaners are chancing their luck I would tell them you will not be paying half the vet costs. If the loaners choose to default on their vet bill because they think they should not have to pay then that is between them and the vet to sort out I would not get involved.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top