Long and Low bad for your horse...?

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JTK16

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A few days ago i found this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKumaWifhUA

I've always believed working my horse long and low is good for him and helps promote topline, I normally include it most of our schooling sessions and always allow him to stretch when warming up and cooling down but from what I can gather apparently this is bad as well.

I can see from the video the horses croup goes higher than the wither and he moves onto the forehand aswell and going behind the vertical at certain points but this is not long and low. I'm hesitant to entirely dismiss it but it has left me a bit confused :confused: Just wondering what peoples opinions are on this? If you cant be bothered to watch the whole video the description and comments pretty much sum it up:)
 
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That is not what I would call long and low. That is a horse with hits head restricted and folded in. When I did long and low horse would have his head down as if sniffing the ground. I would tell him to stretch low and that is what he did. The pony does it as well.
 
EmmasMummy said:
That is not what I would call long and low. That is a horse with hits head restricted and folded in. When I did long and low horse would have his head down as if sniffing the ground. I would tell him to stretch low and that is what he did. The pony does it as well.
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Yep, this was my thoughts. He answers this in the comments when someone suggest the same thing.

"The upper neck muscles do not stretch, they do not relax, they do not stretch the back muscles, the RESIST GRAVITY. The one who theorize that greater stretch is achieve when the nose moves forward live in a world of fantasies and total ignorance of functional anatomy. The muscles which pull the nose forward are the upper elements of the semispinalis capitis. They contract concentric, which mean they shorten, pulling on the skull backward, which in turn places the nose forward. If you want to believe in long and low, such is your lost, nobody is perfect, but if you want to have a discussion about it you need to seriously upgrade your scientific knowledge."

This is a small snippet of his reply to the comment
 
Yes the horse will be on the forehand. No it's not bad for him, it's a rest from collected work. Wether the rest is achieved trhough decontraction of the upper neck muscles or transfer of some of the weight to the nuchal ligament, I don't see the problem. The horse is relaxing a bit. I do think that nose on ground is a bit extreme but poll levelish with the wither is what I aim for.
 
Palindrome said:
Yes the horse will be on the forehand. No it's not bad for him, it's a rest from collected work. Wether the rest is achieved trhough decontraction of the upper neck muscles or transfer of some of the weight to the nuchal ligament, I don't see the problem. The horse is relaxing a bit. I do think that nose on ground is a bit extreme but poll levelish with the wither is what I aim for.
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I normally allow him to stretch and elongate his neck as a bit of a rest during a session like as you have said a rest from collected work however someone has also raised something similar to this and he reply's with:

"A horse lives in the moment and react about instant release without knowing and considering damaged that his reactions is going to create in the future. We explain the muscular work, we explain the work of the nuchal ligament, which is the reason why the horse lowers the neck after work. We explain how damaging are training techniques increasing the weight on the forelegs. This is an enormous problem for the horse and the main cause of injuries. If you want to ride and therefore adding your weight on the horse back, you have the ethical responsibility to educate or coordinate your horse's physique for the situation. They have many ways to adapt to the addition of the rider's weight. The bad solutions are increasing the load on the forelegs and consequently predisposing their front limbs and vertebral column mechanism to injuries. Your horse does not know that but, unless you want to remain a member of the "flat earth society," you know that."
 
Horses don't get damaged by riding on a long rein and being relaxed (look at how much damage is inflicted on those poor happy hackers vs. dressage horses with arthritis in the neck and hocks!).
This guy is a guru, not a scientist.
BTW, if the damage to front limb he is alluding to is navicular, it has be shown (scientifically!) that navicular damage is caused by toe first landing of the foot, totally unrelated to horse being on the forehand. But it is not clear what damage he is talking about (imaginary damage probably).
 
why would he use a clip of a horse that's not working long and low correctly? i wouldn't even lunge a horse that way, its not tracking up, it's being restricted by the gadgets. If he had a video of a horse ACTUALLY being ridden long and low i'd be interested in what he says, but he picked an example of a choppy, unbalanced horse, not tracking up, who's not happy in the contact.

I'd be interested to hear his comments on a video of a correctly ridden horse. I do a lot of long and low on several horses, and the weaker ones start off on the forehand, but the other two lift easily, so i don;t understand what he is getting at with the forehand stuff.
 
Palindrome said:
Horses don't get damaged by riding on a long rein and being relaxed (look at how much damage is inflicted on those poor happy hackers vs. dressage horses with arthritis in the neck and hocks!).
This guy is a guru, not a scientist.
BTW, if the damage to front limb he is alluding to is navicular, it has be shown (scientifically!) that navicular damage is caused by toe first landing of the foot, totally unrelated to horse being on the forehand. But it is not clear what damage he is talking about (imaginary damage probably).
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I think he is getting something lost in translation. When I think long and low, it is how a horse is when walking on a long rein in a dressage test, possibly lower (hoovering). He seems to be fixating on a horse with the neck horizontal and the nose pulled in.



http://scienceofmotion.com/long_and_low.html
 
From what I gather when confronted with this in the comments he just suggests he used the draw reins to try to achieve a lower neck position not to actually achieve long and low? But i feel the same surely you would use an example of a horse working long and low and comment on that
 
I knew who this was going to be before I even clicked on the link. I find most of his stuff complete gobbledegook - he is very good at blinding with science, but when you deconstruct what he's saying, quite a lot of it doesn't make an awful lot of sense.
 
he just seems like a bit of a loon, why does he use such wonky drawings of a horse instead of a photo? You could draw a photo to prove anything. And whats the deal with the 18th century photography? surely a proper scientific study would have better images??
 
Auslander said:
I knew who this was going to be before I even clicked on the link. I find most of his stuff complete gobbledegook - he is very good at blinding with science, but when you deconstruct what he's saying, quite a lot of it doesn't make an awful lot of sense.
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This, 'science' of motion indeed!
 
That horse isn't even working long and low. Didn't waste my time watching the whole thing. Bullc*ap.

At the risk of stating the obvious, most things can be harmful if done incorrectly <eyeroll>.
 
That isnt what I call long and low by any means. That is side reins by any other name ,an abomination. For me ,long and low means a horse enjoying the freedom to relax and stretch roundly through his frame.
 
Thats not a video of a horse working long and low. Its a horse totally restricted, it does look like its trying to stretch down a few times but cant as its tied in. Honestly, you have to be really careful what you watch on Youtube, people cant post anything with a convincing blurb, doesnt mean its right though!
 
If you watch art2ride youtube channel I would consider him having a lot of examples of working long and low and he also help you achieve. Might be a good one to check out :)
 
It's crazy to me to use that video of a seriously restricted horse not working long and low to demonstrate any point about long and low?
 
I've just hunted through all my pics, and dug this one out. Not under saddle, but this is what I would consider to be acceptable long and low. I don't really see the point of going much lower than this, as then you are running the risk of the horse falling onto the forehand.
421886_10151526698390730_597400271_n.jpg
 
JTK16 said:
A few days ago i found this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKumaWifhUA

I've always believed working my horse long and low is good for him and helps promote topline, I normally include it most of our schooling sessions and always allow him to stretch when warming up and cooling down but from what I can gather apparently this is bad as well.

I can see from the video the horses croup goes higher than the wither and he moves onto the forehand aswell and going behind the vertical at certain points but this is not long and low. I'm hesitant to entirely dismiss it but it has left me a bit confused :confused: Just wondering what peoples opinions are on this? If you cant be bothered to watch the whole video the description and comments pretty much sum it up:)
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Sorry but that is not long and low... stretching promotes topline and a better way to describe a good stretch is the FDO or forward down and out which is much better. The video is awful but I guess that is what he is trying to say by showing why it's bad to have horses in this posture.
 
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Auslander said:
I've just hunted through all my pics, and dug this one out. Not under saddle, but this is what I would consider to be acceptable long and low. I don't really see the point of going much lower than this, as then you are running the risk of the horse falling onto the forehand.
421886_10151526698390730_597400271_n.jpg
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Lovely horse :)
 
FrankieCob said:
Thats not a video of a horse working long and low. Its a horse totally restricted, it does look like its trying to stretch down a few times but cant as its tied in. Honestly, you have to be really careful what you watch on Youtube, people cant post anything with a convincing blurb, doesnt mean its right though!
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it is a video of a horse totally restricted and my understanding is that is the whole point of the video. JLC doesn't work in draw reins. I wonder if you have watched the whole video or just the start. If you watch a little more you will see that he apologises to the horse for restricting him with the draw reins. The video as I understand it is to demonstrate everything that is wrong with a way that many people (possibly not ones on here) use and to explain all that in JLC's usual very great detail.

His work is very difficult to understand as French is his first language and it is difficult to follow his English which doesn't flow very well. His articles are also not particularly easy to follow. I spent a long time reading his work. If you just dipped in for a couple of minutes you would think it was complete rubbish, totally unintelligible. I found the best thing to do was to look at his work on Chazot as an example of what he can do.
This also takes a long time to work through but, alongside his articles on working Chazot, is a worthwhile exercise. You may still regard him as Bullc*rap of course but at least you will have a lot more information on which to make that judgment.

Someone commented on his navicular ideas. I too regarded them as rubbish until I studied his thoughts in detail. That does however take time.
 
paddy555 said:
it is a video of a horse totally restricted and my understanding is that is the whole point of the video. JLC doesn't work in draw reins. I wonder if you have watched the whole video or just the start. If you watch a little more you will see that he apologises to the horse for restricting him with the draw reins. The video as I understand it is to demonstrate everything that is wrong with a way that many people (possibly not ones on here) use and to explain all that in JLC's usual very great detail.

His work is very difficult to understand as French is his first language and it is difficult to follow his English which doesn't flow very well. His articles are also not particularly easy to follow. I spent a long time reading his work. If you just dipped in for a couple of minutes you would think it was complete rubbish, totally unintelligible. I found the best thing to do was to look at his work on Chazot as an example of what he can do.
This also takes a long time to work through but, alongside his articles on working Chazot, is a worthwhile exercise. You may still regard him as Bullc*rap of course but at least you will have a lot more information on which to make that judgment.

Someone commented on his navicular ideas. I too regarded them as rubbish until I studied his thoughts in detail. That does however take time.
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Interesting Paddy. I didn't find the explanations too muddled but French is my first language too.
About the navicular, it's an old preconception that a horse heavy on the forehand will develop navicular. However veterinary studies (with cadaver legs) have shown that navicular damage is caused by repeted toe first landing and that makes sense when looking at the leg's biomechanics (the tendon at the back is slack when heel first but tensed up against navicular bone when toe first hence tendon rubbing against the bone).
Anyway I am not completely sure that this is what he was getting at. I wouldn't discount completely what he says. I think what he means is that it's bad to drill the horse on long and low and won't develop the back that much. I agree on the first point (not sure on the second) but I definitely think long and low (or FDO like tallyho said and Auslander's horse demonstrated) is good for the horse, to offer a rest/relief from collected work.
 
Palindrome said:
Interesting Paddy. I didn't find the explanations too muddled but French is my first language too.
About the navicular, it's an old preconception that a horse heavy on the forehand will develop navicular. However veterinary studies (with cadaver legs) have shown that navicular damage is caused by repeted toe first landing and that makes sense when looking at the leg's biomechanics (the tendon at the back is slack when heel first but tensed up against navicular bone when toe first hence tendon rubbing against the bone).
Anyway I am not completely sure that this is what he was getting at. I wouldn't discount completely what he says. I think what he means is that it's bad to drill the horse on long and low and won't develop the back that much. I agree on the first point (not sure on the second) but I definitely think long and low (or FDO like tallyho said and Auslander's horse demonstrated) is good for the horse, to offer a rest/relief from collected work.
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Very interesting. Thanks for that explanation re navicular... bio-mechanically, it does make sense and to compound the issue perhaps further is poor shoeing, which further weakens the area.

I think FDO during collected work is essential, but also the only way to get the horse to lift the sternum in early work. FDO encourages lift by allowing the stretch and stepping under like Auslanders horse is doing. Proper long and low should build abdominal strength. It makes sense when you think about a horse about to rear or playing, the head lowers before the forehand lifts because the only way to get the hind legs under enough for this lift is not to raise the head (compressing the spine), but to lower it. Hope that makes sense...

I've also tried to understand the Science of Motion stuff but Chazot's story was pretty amazing.
 
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The horse in the video with some sort of contraption on was not really working long and low. He was closed and tense through his neck which was having a knock-on effect through the rest of his body - not reaching forward to the contact at all. So yes of course working in that kind of way isn't beneficial, but it's not what I would call long and low.

I think often horses working long and low are secretly just on the forehand (I know mine will do this given any opportunity) but I don't think even this will actually damage them, and sometimes it helps their mind just to work in a relaxed position, even if it's not actively building their strength. I think proper long and low is beneficial and the horses I have seen worked this way do lift through their back.
 
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The "contraption" the horse is in is called Vienna Reins (because they are used in the SRS), and are very useful to encourage horses to reach forward and down WITHOUT restricting like sidereins can because they have a release point and allow horses to find a variable position. The horse in the video is not using himself (or the reins) well at all, largely, IMO, because he is not going forward. Going long and low for extended periods, and without a contact, can put horses on the forehand and if used in that way is not all that beneficial. Regularly encouraging the horse to stretch forward and down, to seek the rein for short periods is however essential.
 
THIS IS NOT SCIENCE. Not even close. Taking a video with a hand held camera and writing some gobbledegook on the internet is not science. Scientists have robust hypothesis, they have appropriate methodologies, they have explicit argumentation, they situate their work in light of the work of others and they publish results.

Please do not encourage this rubbish by giving it credence.
 
Palindrome said:
Lovely horse :)
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Thank you! He's not bad for an old carthorse!
I think it's a really interesting photo, as he is moving in a very controlled way for a horse at liberty. He wouldn't look at all out of place with a rider on him. He's not usually a horse that you would look at in the field and believe that he's achieved what he has, so this pic is definitely a bit of a freak.
 
i have a very early video tape of margitt otto crepin and corlandus, and to watch it is sheer joy, it is something that sets he standard for me in dressage, she was trained in her early days by jean luc cornille.

to follow the training of chazot was a revelation, he has the patience and understanding of the horse i would love to aim for.

the horse in the clip is between rollkur and long and low, stretching a horse involves maintaining balance and if any benefit is to be gained impulsion must be maintained, also it is different to allowing a a break by offering the horse the opportunity to take the contact forward by taking the reins from the ride and to relax.

it is a very nice horse in the clip.
 
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