Long reining session today....

milliepops said:
Well, this comes back to my other question about the brief given to the trainer. If she was asked to school him on from where he was, then I think she's made a lot of progress in terms of both re-educating his mouth and getting his body working forward comfortably. :) It's early days, the first video was posted on Sunday.

It would be re-breaking to my mind, to start again from scratch with no contact to the bit, and then build up to it again. It looks (so far) that he is learning well enough with the methods she is using. There's more than one way to skin a cat, & all that.
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I guess that's the intrinsic disagreement then - I don't believe in carrying on from crappy foundations, I believe that you have to take steps back to undo damage to give a basis to proceed from.

Sorry to be so dogmatic, but this is a huge bugbear of mine, as the horse responds to simple commands and it's much easier for him to regress for a few sessions to rebuild for the future. I'd hope that any decent rider/trainer would be easily able to explain to an owner why they need to drop back a bit.

After all, if it was a 1m40 horse that had lost confidence, you wouldn't keep firing at 1m40 courses, you'd drop way back down to rebuild confidence.

It's exactly the same on the flat, the horse needs confidence to be able to improve and grow in his work. Without that, learning every new movement will be unnecessarily difficult and stressful, and ultimately poor or forced in execution.

Diplomacy is not my forte when I feel strongly about something - sorry! :o
 
What a bloomin' genuine horse this is. Almost saintlike.

I must long line completely differently from some who have commented on here as my philosophy is to take the horse to where I want it to be and once there, go with the horse ... as a partnership. I half expected the girl to be whisked off her feet on more than a couple of occasions. It's certainly not the way I have long lined for the better part of 40 years.
 
Caledonia said:
I guess that's the intrinsic disagreement then - I don't believe in carrying on from crappy foundations, I believe that you have to take steps back to undo damage to give a basis to proceed from.

Sorry to be so dogmatic, but this is a huge bugbear of mine, as the horse responds to simple commands and it's much easier for him to regress for a few sessions to rebuild for the future. I'd hope that any decent rider/trainer would be easily able to explain to an owner why they need to drop back a bit.
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I don't agree with carrying on from poor foundations either, but given that Armas has not said what he asked the trainer to do, how the conversation went or what they agreed, we are speculating about it all ;)

I do think she's gone back a step from the previous rider, who had got the horse to a certain point but (IMHO) neglected the issues this one is addressing, namely contact, suppleness and acceptance. So, it depends on how much un-doing the rider and OP decided to do.

And I still don't believe that he lacks confidence in this trainer, in a few days he has grown enormously. As there isn't *one* way to train a horse... so this is just the approach the OP has picked from what was available .:)
 
milliepops said:
And I still don't believe that he lacks confidence in this trainer, in a few days he has grown enormously. As there isn't *one* way to train a horse... so this is just the approach the OP has picked from what was available .:)
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In that case I think you misunderstand horses and confidence. :(
 
Caledonia said:
In that case I think you misunderstand horses and confidence. :(
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OK, that's your view. I don't think I misunderstand it, and I think my own horses have all been happy confident individuals. My trainers have said the same. We are all different. :)
 
Forest Fox said:
What competition level are you aiming for ?
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I am not at this point. I have things I would like to do but they are irrelevant at the moment.

milliepops said:
OK, that's your view. I don't think I misunderstand it, and I think my own horses have all been happy confident individuals. My trainers have said the same. We are all different. :)
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Very diplomatic :eek: I need to learn from you !
 
milliepops said:
OK, that's your view. I don't think I misunderstand it, and I think my own horses have all been happy confident individuals. My trainers have said the same. We are all different. :)
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Given you thought this horse was happy, forgive me if I'm not reassured ;)
 
Armas said:
Cut out the sniping please its not pleasant. What do you get out of having a dig at the poster ? No need to answer that.
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I don't like to see an uncomfortable and confused horse being applauded. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but you put the video up and it's what I see. It's nothing personal, but having had my share of spoiled horses to turn around, I struggle to see Armas trying so hard with every different trainer you've had on him and still none of them are sympathetic to him.

I normally ignore your videos of him because they frankly upset me, but the remarks had me thinking he was at last getting it right. So I looked. I wish I hadn't.

But if even if one person who was unsure about long reining may have thought what that girl was doing is right and has had now second thoughts about trying to emulate her, then I make no apology for posting.
 
Thanks A, I'm happy that my trainers are not fools being, over the years FBHS, list 1 judge and Olympic medallists. None of them hold back when it comes to pointing out my faults :) anyway, the thread is not about me, , it's about a lovely grey horse. Off to play in the sun :D
 
Caledonia said:
I don't like to see an uncomfortable and confused horse being applauded. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but you put the video up and it's what I see. It's nothing personal, but having had my share of spoiled horses to turn around, I struggle to see Armas trying so hard with every different trainer you've had on him and still none of them are sympathetic to him.

I normally ignore your videos of him because they frankly upset me, but the remarks had me thinking he was at last getting it right. So I looked. I wish I hadn't.

But if even if one person who was unsure about long reining may have thought what that girl was doing is right and has had now second thoughts about trying to emulate her, then I make no apology for posting.
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May I suggest that you put me on your ignore list then. As I would not want to upset you.
As for non of my trainers being sympathetic well that clearly shows YOUR poor understanding.
I bid you good day.
 
Armas said:
May I suggest that you put me on your ignore list then. As I would not want to upset you.
As for non of my trainers being sympathetic well that clearly shows YOUR poor understanding.
I bid you good day.
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Or perhaps you take it on the chin when you post videos? I'm not the only one that was unimpressed on this thread ......
 
Caledonia said:
Or perhaps you take it on the chin when you post videos? I'm not the only one that was unimpressed on this thread ......
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No, you're not the only one (or with any of his other threads.)

However the owner of this horse only likes admiration so I tend to keep out of it. It makes me very sad though, for such an honest horse.
 
Wow...what a thread so far.

Caledonia, you make some valid points, but as with everything, each horse is different and only watching for three minutes doesn't really give a very rounded view of the entire session, therefore your comments can only be taken semi-seriously. I understand them, but don't understand why you are so vehement when you don't wish to see the whole picture.

Horserider...if the OP was simply out for admiration, I can think of better ways of achieving that than opening himself up for a constant torrent of criticism.

There are bits of this video I do like and bits that I don't if I am truly honest and as I have said elsewhere, I don't like the idea of lunging a horse like this in side reins, I think they will take him backwards not forwards. As for long reining...in general, I just wouldn't bother. I would stick to giving the horse the consistency of the riders ridden work as that is where he is showing the biggest improvements and I would lunge without side reins and off a lunge cavesson.

I can't at the moment find any reason why long reining or lunging in side reins would benefit the horse, but I also am not in that arena with that horse getting the feedback from it, so I won't be so quick to judge and condemn either.

Hope that makes sense.

I would also have thought that the more experienced you are and the more knowledge you have, the more you would realise that it is impossible to say what is right and wrong for a horse based on such a brief glimpse.

Let's all remember, this trainer has been working with this horse for a week. I would much rather see her try different things until she finds what works best for this horse, than train him with a predetermined plan and inflexible methods.
 
But going by the other 7 videos the trainers method is unflexible and she hasn't tried different things, I think that is why people are getting a bit snippy now.

Its not nice seeing a horse make little improvement and become confused and worried because the trainer is just banging on and on in the same way expecting the horse to improve.
 
Whatever her 'methods' they are sometimes heavy handed and unsightly. I would say it doesn't matter if we don't agree with her 'methods' - each to their own, but her methods are hardly refined. Not the approach I would suggest with this very hot horse (after all he seems to be being claimed as the hottest horse that ever lived ;))

GG, are you on the Chateux Mille payroll? ;) (I am joking)
 
goldenmint said:
But going by the other 7 videos the trainers method is unflexible and she hasn't tried different things, I think that is why people are getting a bit snippy now.

Its not nice seeing a horse make little improvement and become confused and worried because the trainer is just banging on and on in the same way expecting the horse to improve.
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Inflexible and unchanging over the 7 videos ? I have only posted 6..
If you can't see the changes and adaptation since the first video and the last you may need to pop down to Spec Savers :rolleyes:
 
Ok 6 videos then sorry I added one.
Being pedantic doesn't makeo your opinion correct you know.

The trainer has not changed her methods at any point and you are deluding yourself.

I have no intention of arguing with you as I think you crave the drama tbh.

Good luck with the horse and your trainer :-)
 
goldenmint said:
Ok 6 videos then sorry I added one.
Being pedantic doesn't makeo your opinion correct you know.

The trainer has not changed her methods at any point and you are deluding yourself.

I have no intention of arguing with you as I think you crave the drama tbh.

Good luck with the horse and your trainer :-)
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Deluding my self...
Add in to the work since the first session flexion serpentines circles slowed the pace down lateral work more collection...... So thats nothing different since the first session ? I am not craving any kind of drama but you are making statements that are not correct.
Delusion must be catching
_GG_
Veteran

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 1,307
Re: New trainer in action 3.....
Seeing big improvements again!

I would like to point out that, most noticeable in the canter work and especially collecting the canter a bit, this rider is doing the opposite of what most seem to object to and that is holding him. In these moments, she is riding with her seat, asking the horse to sit some more and he is doing so and the result, which shows me that he does have a degree of relaxation is that he is indeed coming up into a more classical frame with a very light contact on the reins. He is maintaining self carriage and rather nicely, the rider is not keeping him there for ling...just asking, being given, thanking and releasing.

Evident in parts where the horse is in a more correct frame and she gives a total release...where the horse maintains the frame for himself.


Big improvements in such a short time. The transitions especially are where it will fall apart if a horse is tense and I see much nicer, more relaxed transitions in this video.

Nice

milliepops
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,872
Re: New trainer in action 3.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkimariet
He's softer, rushing less and starting to step through already. Like!
^^ this and what GG said He looks like he is becoming better connected and more confident in the contact already It's incremental, baby steps but he is definitely uncurling. I think it's a very promising partnership
 
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See I don't know how to explain to you as you cannot see any wrong with this trainer do anything I say you are just going to argue with.

Great the trainer added some circles and a serpentine, that's great but her basic riding of him isn't making a very harmonious connection with the horse and nor is it going too for all the reasons you have been told by loads of different posters already.
Look I really hope it works out for you and your horse as he seems lovely. I hope you come back on in a few months having won your prelim and prove me wrong.
 
goldenmint said:
See I don't know how to explain to you as you cannot see any wrong with this trainer do anything I say you are just going to argue with.

Great the trainer added some circles and a serpentine, that's great but her basic riding of him isn't making a very harmonious connection with the horse and nor is it going too for all the reasons you have been told by loads of different posters already.
Look I really hope it works out for you and your horse as he seems lovely. I hope you come back on in a few months having won your prelim and prove me wrong.
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There are also a large number of posters that think the opposite to you and the work the trainer is carrying out is progressing well. There views not mine.
 
nope sorry I really don't feel or see that she *clicks* with him I can't put my finger on how or why it's just shouts out wrong.

Question

when this trainer is flapping the lunge lines look at armas face into his eyes . really does he look like a happy horse to you ?
 
You know what, good for them. I don't feel any need to justify myself, my experience or my riding ability.

As I said good luck with the horse I hope it all goes well.
 
My god! some people clearly have to much time on their hands. I take it all the posters criticising the rider ride like carl hester?? Same as always on here!! Fwiw I think the rider has made an improvement over the space of a week and would like to see anyone else improve this horse greatly in that space of time. Its far from perfect, but i believe alot of folk made up their mind as soon as they heard who the girl trains with. Just my opinion.

excuse grammar etc on phone
 
aimsymc said:
My god! some people clearly have to much time on their hands. I take it all the posters criticising the rider ride like carl hester?? Same as always on here!! Fwiw I think the rider has made an improvement over the space of a week and would like to see anyone else improve this horse greatly in that space of time. Its far from perfect, but i believe alot of folk made up their mind as soon as they heard who the girl trains with. Just my opinion.

excuse grammar etc on phone
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Yes I would love to see Cortez work with this horse :)

I don't even know who this girl is or who she works for, so my comments are purely based on how the horse looks and the actions of the girl working him.
 
Spring Feather said:
Yes I would love to see Cortez work with this horse :)

I don't even know who this girl is or who she works for, so my comments are purely based on how the horse looks and the actions of the girl working him.
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Ok well you have no idea but it was being discussed on the other threads. I just feel that the rider is being blamed for the way this horse goes which i dont feel is the case. I do feel some improvement has been made in a short period of time.

And for what you said about cortez, I dont really know alot about what she does, but her pics always look great and shes always got great advice! :)
 
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