vennessa
Well-Known Member
Is narcolepsy where people suddenly fall aslep?
LOOK AT THIS - WOW - ITS AMAZING
- Thread starter cruiseline
- Start date
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
OK - here is my list
Freedom from Pain
Freedom from Thirst
Freedom from Hunger
Freedom to Gallop and Roll in the mud
The first one won't happen, the horse WILL have falls, she will also develop pressure sores - FACT.
I will give you the second one - although who here can GUARANTEE this?
I will also give you the third one - ditto above.
The last one, we, as horseowners, KNOW is one of the greatest pleasures a horse can have, how many of us watch our horses roll as soon as we put them out, mine then leap into the air and RUN, the pleasure is palpable and I love to watch them do it - this little girl, sadly cannot have that pleasure - and don't even try and tell me otherwise
[/ QUOTE ]
According to your list for 'quality of life', the vast majority of horses that are involved with the racing industry, in your opinion, should now be PTS. I think that there would be alot more people than the ones you are meeting on this forum that would disagree with you.
If it can't gallop and roll around in the mud, then put it to sleep. Hmmmmmmmmmmm
Perhaps we shouldn't even ride horses in the first place, lets turn them all loose into the green pastures, so that we are assure they get 100% quality of life.
OK - here is my list
Freedom from Pain
Freedom from Thirst
Freedom from Hunger
Freedom to Gallop and Roll in the mud
The first one won't happen, the horse WILL have falls, she will also develop pressure sores - FACT.
I will give you the second one - although who here can GUARANTEE this?
I will also give you the third one - ditto above.
The last one, we, as horseowners, KNOW is one of the greatest pleasures a horse can have, how many of us watch our horses roll as soon as we put them out, mine then leap into the air and RUN, the pleasure is palpable and I love to watch them do it - this little girl, sadly cannot have that pleasure - and don't even try and tell me otherwise
[/ QUOTE ]
According to your list for 'quality of life', the vast majority of horses that are involved with the racing industry, in your opinion, should now be PTS. I think that there would be alot more people than the ones you are meeting on this forum that would disagree with you.
If it can't gallop and roll around in the mud, then put it to sleep. Hmmmmmmmmmmm
Perhaps we shouldn't even ride horses in the first place, lets turn them all loose into the green pastures, so that we are assure they get 100% quality of life.
brummel
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Is narcolepsy where people suddenly fall aslep?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes Silver_Florin, my horse was diagnosed with this illness nearly two years ago.
Is narcolepsy where people suddenly fall aslep?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes Silver_Florin, my horse was diagnosed with this illness nearly two years ago.
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
Please do not twist my words to suit your argument.
That was only one of four points, the first being freedom from PAIN - yet you conveniently ignored that point. I would not suggest in a million years that because a horse cannot roll it be PTS, and you know damn well that is not what I am suggesting. I also resent you intimating that I am a fluffy bunny hugger - quite the opposite actually.
That was only one of four points, the first being freedom from PAIN - yet you conveniently ignored that point. I would not suggest in a million years that because a horse cannot roll it be PTS, and you know damn well that is not what I am suggesting. I also resent you intimating that I am a fluffy bunny hugger - quite the opposite actually.
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK - here is my list
Freedom from Pain
Freedom from Thirst
Freedom from Hunger
Freedom to Gallop and Roll in the mud
The first one won't happen, the horse WILL have falls, she will also develop pressure sores - FACT.
I will give you the second one - although who here can GUARANTEE this?
I will also give you the third one - ditto above.
The last one, we, as horseowners, KNOW is one of the greatest pleasures a horse can have, how many of us watch our horses roll as soon as we put them out, mine then leap into the air and RUN, the pleasure is palpable and I love to watch them do it - this little girl, sadly cannot have that pleasure - and don't even try and tell me otherwise
Soooo two out of four = 50% of a life hmmmmmm
Is that good - I don't think so.
[/ QUOTE ]
My horse suffers from navicular and narcolepsy, he can't gallop or leap in the air, sometimes falls down and is on medication for the rest of his life. However, despite all his problems, with constant care and attention, I KNOW he still enjoys a good quality of life and wouldn't yet consider having him pts . I'm also aware the time will come when this quality of life deteriates and as a responsible owner I will then (and only then) have him euthanised.
According to the link on this thread, it appears the pony can function normally (although there's no mention of galloping)..
Quote:
She was able to walk and even lie down using this long, stiff leg, which she couldnt bend.
Four months later, now fitted with a custom-made prosthesis supplied by a commercial firm, Molly trots around her pasture and functions normally. I dont know that she ever has to come back here unless she has a problem now, Moore said. Wed like her to come back, but not for medical reasons just to visit because we like her.
If that statement is true and speaking from my own personal experience..I think, (at the moment) that pony has a very good quality of life.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can compare navicular or narcolepsy with the loss of a limb. Sorry, but it is a completely different scenario, this pony WILL develop pressure sores etc, there is just NO getting away from that.
[ QUOTE ]
OK - here is my list
Freedom from Pain
Freedom from Thirst
Freedom from Hunger
Freedom to Gallop and Roll in the mud
The first one won't happen, the horse WILL have falls, she will also develop pressure sores - FACT.
I will give you the second one - although who here can GUARANTEE this?
I will also give you the third one - ditto above.
The last one, we, as horseowners, KNOW is one of the greatest pleasures a horse can have, how many of us watch our horses roll as soon as we put them out, mine then leap into the air and RUN, the pleasure is palpable and I love to watch them do it - this little girl, sadly cannot have that pleasure - and don't even try and tell me otherwise
Soooo two out of four = 50% of a life hmmmmmm
[/ QUOTE ]
My horse suffers from navicular and narcolepsy, he can't gallop or leap in the air, sometimes falls down and is on medication for the rest of his life. However, despite all his problems, with constant care and attention, I KNOW he still enjoys a good quality of life and wouldn't yet consider having him pts . I'm also aware the time will come when this quality of life deteriates and as a responsible owner I will then (and only then) have him euthanised.
According to the link on this thread, it appears the pony can function normally (although there's no mention of galloping)..
Quote:
She was able to walk and even lie down using this long, stiff leg, which she couldnt bend.
Four months later, now fitted with a custom-made prosthesis supplied by a commercial firm, Molly trots around her pasture and functions normally. I dont know that she ever has to come back here unless she has a problem now, Moore said. Wed like her to come back, but not for medical reasons just to visit because we like her.
If that statement is true and speaking from my own personal experience..I think, (at the moment) that pony has a very good quality of life.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can compare navicular or narcolepsy with the loss of a limb. Sorry, but it is a completely different scenario, this pony WILL develop pressure sores etc, there is just NO getting away from that.
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
100% quality of life was you stipulation. I have not, or do not, put words into peoples mouths, I find they are quite good at doing that themselves.
With regards to pain, can you honestly say that the local riding school ponies (dressage horses, eventers, showjumpers, polo ponies, race horses, carriage horses, western horses etc. etc.) do not at some point feel pain, be it from the total beginners on their back, balancing on their mouths, badly fitting tack, simply being backed at the beginning of their career, a metal bit shoved in your mouth can not be pleasant. Or would you have people stop ride althogether.
I also can not honestly say that my horses have not at some point in their training felt pain, be it stiffness from a days hard work, strain or just simply that they didn't get it and I had to be a little hard on them. Pulling manes, farrier, being restrained by the vet for injections, injections, dentist, ciro etc. etc. etc. That is reality. There is another honest truth and if you are a rider, this is fact, every person (and I mean every person) will use a horse as a tool before he or she is competent enough to ride correctly.
The truth is, pain is always there, its how we manage it that counts.
I am quite sure that there is not one horse in this world who has not, at some point, felt pain in the hands of a human being. Unless it has just been born, but give it time and it will.
As regards a fluffy bunny hugger, I have no idea what you are talking about.
With regards to pain, can you honestly say that the local riding school ponies (dressage horses, eventers, showjumpers, polo ponies, race horses, carriage horses, western horses etc. etc.) do not at some point feel pain, be it from the total beginners on their back, balancing on their mouths, badly fitting tack, simply being backed at the beginning of their career, a metal bit shoved in your mouth can not be pleasant. Or would you have people stop ride althogether.
I also can not honestly say that my horses have not at some point in their training felt pain, be it stiffness from a days hard work, strain or just simply that they didn't get it and I had to be a little hard on them. Pulling manes, farrier, being restrained by the vet for injections, injections, dentist, ciro etc. etc. etc. That is reality. There is another honest truth and if you are a rider, this is fact, every person (and I mean every person) will use a horse as a tool before he or she is competent enough to ride correctly.
The truth is, pain is always there, its how we manage it that counts.
I am quite sure that there is not one horse in this world who has not, at some point, felt pain in the hands of a human being. Unless it has just been born, but give it time and it will.
As regards a fluffy bunny hugger, I have no idea what you are talking about.
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
I have notice that you are an Andalucian person, lovely breed of horse, stunning to watch, such grace when classically ridden in dressage.
Would you like me to post some pictures of the noses of andalucian horses that have been trained using the spanish noseband. We have several here in Dubai that arrived with horrendous scarring, must have been down to the bone at some time.
I am not for one minute suggesting that you use this noseband, but most of the andalucian world does. Fact.
Would you like me to post some pictures of the noses of andalucian horses that have been trained using the spanish noseband. We have several here in Dubai that arrived with horrendous scarring, must have been down to the bone at some time.
I am not for one minute suggesting that you use this noseband, but most of the andalucian world does. Fact.
brummel
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can compare navicular or narcolepsy with the loss of a limb. Sorry, but it is a completely different scenario,
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is it, they're all disabilities?
For instance, included on your "quality of life" list.......
"The horse WILL have falls" due to narcolepsy, my horse DOES collapse.
"Freedom from Pain"......my horse suffers with navicular, this is a very painful condition but as with pressure sores, this can be controlled with constant care and medication.
"Freedom to Gallop and Roll in the mud"...due to navicular, my horse finds it to painful to gallop.
So, according to your list, it appears my horse doesn't have a "good quality of life" either...therefore, would you suggest that he should be pts!!!
I don't think you can compare navicular or narcolepsy with the loss of a limb. Sorry, but it is a completely different scenario,
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is it, they're all disabilities?
For instance, included on your "quality of life" list.......
"The horse WILL have falls" due to narcolepsy, my horse DOES collapse.
"Freedom from Pain"......my horse suffers with navicular, this is a very painful condition but as with pressure sores, this can be controlled with constant care and medication.
"Freedom to Gallop and Roll in the mud"...due to navicular, my horse finds it to painful to gallop.
So, according to your list, it appears my horse doesn't have a "good quality of life" either...therefore, would you suggest that he should be pts!!!
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
Pressure points, how many horses do you come across with the tell tale white marks around their withers, and on their backs. As far as I know these, are scarring due to pressure points, all in the name of riding!!!!!!!!
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I have notice that you are an Andalucian person, lovely breed of horse, stunning to watch, such grace when classically ridden in dressage.
Would you like me to post some pictures of the noses of andalucian horses that have been trained using the spanish noseband. We have several here in Dubai that arrived with horrendous scarring, must have been down to the bone at some time.
I am not for one minute suggesting that you use this noseband, but most of the andalucian world does. Fact.
[/ QUOTE ]
The spanish noseband in question is a Serretta, and it is not actually designed to be ridden in but is mainly used for inhand work, in fact The Spanish Riding School of Vienna use the three ring version for all their inhand work. I am also aware that there are riders in Spain who ride in in it, just as I am aware that they remove the leather too, it is when they do that that they cause the scarring. So, no you need not post pictures, I have seen for myself in real life the results of this harsh practice.
However, whilst I would never ride in a serretta, I do use it for inhand work, but then I know how to use one. When you say most of the Andalucian world rides in a Serretta FACT, sorry but you are wrong, the spanish are becoming more classically (whatever that means) inclined and fewer and fewer are using a serretta for ridden work.
I have notice that you are an Andalucian person, lovely breed of horse, stunning to watch, such grace when classically ridden in dressage.
Would you like me to post some pictures of the noses of andalucian horses that have been trained using the spanish noseband. We have several here in Dubai that arrived with horrendous scarring, must have been down to the bone at some time.
I am not for one minute suggesting that you use this noseband, but most of the andalucian world does. Fact.
[/ QUOTE ]
The spanish noseband in question is a Serretta, and it is not actually designed to be ridden in but is mainly used for inhand work, in fact The Spanish Riding School of Vienna use the three ring version for all their inhand work. I am also aware that there are riders in Spain who ride in in it, just as I am aware that they remove the leather too, it is when they do that that they cause the scarring. So, no you need not post pictures, I have seen for myself in real life the results of this harsh practice.
However, whilst I would never ride in a serretta, I do use it for inhand work, but then I know how to use one. When you say most of the Andalucian world rides in a Serretta FACT, sorry but you are wrong, the spanish are becoming more classically (whatever that means) inclined and fewer and fewer are using a serretta for ridden work.
M_G
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I have notice that you are an Andalucian person, lovely breed of horse, stunning to watch, such grace when classically ridden in dressage.
Would you like me to post some pictures of the noses of andalucian horses that have been trained using the spanish noseband. We have several here in Dubai that arrived with horrendous scarring, must have been down to the bone at some time.
I am not for one minute suggesting that you use this noseband, but most of the andalucian world does. Fact.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have used a seretta...Does that make me a horse abuser???
Like anything in the world if a tool be it a chiffney, snaffle, whip, spurs or otherwise is used harshly it can cause untold damage FACT
I am glad your horses are happy however I do think its a little sad that they cannot graze (as you have no grass) like normal horses
I have notice that you are an Andalucian person, lovely breed of horse, stunning to watch, such grace when classically ridden in dressage.
Would you like me to post some pictures of the noses of andalucian horses that have been trained using the spanish noseband. We have several here in Dubai that arrived with horrendous scarring, must have been down to the bone at some time.
I am not for one minute suggesting that you use this noseband, but most of the andalucian world does. Fact.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have used a seretta...Does that make me a horse abuser???
Like anything in the world if a tool be it a chiffney, snaffle, whip, spurs or otherwise is used harshly it can cause untold damage FACT
I am glad your horses are happy however I do think its a little sad that they cannot graze (as you have no grass) like normal horses
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can compare navicular or narcolepsy with the loss of a limb. Sorry, but it is a completely different scenario,
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is it, they're all disabilities?
For instance, included on your "quality of life" list.......
"The horse WILL have falls" due to narcolepsy, my horse DOES collapse.
"Freedom from Pain"......my horse suffers with navicular, this is a very painful condition but as with pressure sores, this can be controlled with constant care and medication.
"Freedom to Gallop and Roll in the mud"...due to navicular, my horse finds it to painful to gallop.
So, according to your list, it appears my horse doesn't have a "good quality of life" either...therefore, would you suggest that he should be pts!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
The horse is a 'flight' creature by nature, the horse in question has THREE legs, there is no doubt in my mind that it should be PTS end of.
What you do with your horse is irrelevant.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can compare navicular or narcolepsy with the loss of a limb. Sorry, but it is a completely different scenario,
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is it, they're all disabilities?
For instance, included on your "quality of life" list.......
"The horse WILL have falls" due to narcolepsy, my horse DOES collapse.
"Freedom from Pain"......my horse suffers with navicular, this is a very painful condition but as with pressure sores, this can be controlled with constant care and medication.
"Freedom to Gallop and Roll in the mud"...due to navicular, my horse finds it to painful to gallop.
So, according to your list, it appears my horse doesn't have a "good quality of life" either...therefore, would you suggest that he should be pts!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
The horse is a 'flight' creature by nature, the horse in question has THREE legs, there is no doubt in my mind that it should be PTS end of.
What you do with your horse is irrelevant.
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
No, using a seretta correctly does not make you a horse abuser, that is not the point I am trying to make.
I am merely pointing out that horses are subjected to pain of one sort or another by people on a daily basis, but we chose to ignore it because it serves our purpose. The reality of it is something all of us who love horses and love to ride, might find distastful, so we bury our heads in the sand and do not calculate it into our list of quality of life.
My horses are not suffering because they are not able to graze and I don't feel sad for them either, it is circumstance. They have everything they could possibly want to keep them happy, health, well adjusted equines. Quality of life can not be written down in stone, because circumstance might change. What could be your (not directed at anyone in particular) depiction of 'quality of life' one day, might be irrelevant tomorrow, because the circumstance might change.
I do not understand when people point the finger at the obviously loving owner of a horse with a disability, be it an amputee, navicular, kissing spin, tendonitis, etc. etc. etc. or just plain and simple old age, and accuse them of being cruel and not having that horse PTS, even to the point of calling it a freakshow. If the horse is being well cared for by both owner and veterinary staff, and the financial needs of the horses care can be met, then what is the problem.
I watched a program yesterday about a lady who was dying of cancer, the only reason she got out of bed in the morning was to visit and ride her crippled horse. Her husband and the doctors said that the horse was the only reason she was still alive. The horse was on pain medication, as was she, it had the most beautiful stable, its coat was gleaming, it in fact looked a picture of health, which is more than I can say for the poor lady. Maybe 10 years earlier if someone would have said to her. You will ride your horse when it is crippled, she would have told them that she would never let her beloved horse suffer. Is she cruel to do that, I think you would have to be a cold hearted person to say she was. Circumstances they are forever changing.
I am merely pointing out that horses are subjected to pain of one sort or another by people on a daily basis, but we chose to ignore it because it serves our purpose. The reality of it is something all of us who love horses and love to ride, might find distastful, so we bury our heads in the sand and do not calculate it into our list of quality of life.
My horses are not suffering because they are not able to graze and I don't feel sad for them either, it is circumstance. They have everything they could possibly want to keep them happy, health, well adjusted equines. Quality of life can not be written down in stone, because circumstance might change. What could be your (not directed at anyone in particular) depiction of 'quality of life' one day, might be irrelevant tomorrow, because the circumstance might change.
I do not understand when people point the finger at the obviously loving owner of a horse with a disability, be it an amputee, navicular, kissing spin, tendonitis, etc. etc. etc. or just plain and simple old age, and accuse them of being cruel and not having that horse PTS, even to the point of calling it a freakshow. If the horse is being well cared for by both owner and veterinary staff, and the financial needs of the horses care can be met, then what is the problem.
I watched a program yesterday about a lady who was dying of cancer, the only reason she got out of bed in the morning was to visit and ride her crippled horse. Her husband and the doctors said that the horse was the only reason she was still alive. The horse was on pain medication, as was she, it had the most beautiful stable, its coat was gleaming, it in fact looked a picture of health, which is more than I can say for the poor lady. Maybe 10 years earlier if someone would have said to her. You will ride your horse when it is crippled, she would have told them that she would never let her beloved horse suffer. Is she cruel to do that, I think you would have to be a cold hearted person to say she was. Circumstances they are forever changing.
brummel
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
For instance, included on your "quality of life" list.......
"The horse WILL have falls" due to narcolepsy, my horse DOES collapse.
"Freedom from Pain"......my horse suffers with navicular, this is a very painful condition but as with pressure sores, this can be controlled with constant care and medication.
"Freedom to Gallop and Roll in the mud"...due to navicular, my horse finds it to painful to gallop.
So, according to your list, it appears my horse doesn't have a "good quality of life" either...therefore, would you suggest that he should be pts!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
The horse is a 'flight' creature by nature, the horse in question has THREE legs, there is no doubt in my mind that it should be PTS end of.
What you do with your horse is irrelevant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is it irrelavant what I do with my horse?
If you make a "quality of life" list it should be relevant to every horse with any disability and I'm quite surprised you couldn't give a direct answer to my question.
Anyway, despite these disabilities, I've no doubt in my mind, that "Molly" and my own horse both have a very good "quality of life"....end of!!
For instance, included on your "quality of life" list.......
"The horse WILL have falls" due to narcolepsy, my horse DOES collapse.
"Freedom from Pain"......my horse suffers with navicular, this is a very painful condition but as with pressure sores, this can be controlled with constant care and medication.
"Freedom to Gallop and Roll in the mud"...due to navicular, my horse finds it to painful to gallop.
So, according to your list, it appears my horse doesn't have a "good quality of life" either...therefore, would you suggest that he should be pts!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
The horse is a 'flight' creature by nature, the horse in question has THREE legs, there is no doubt in my mind that it should be PTS end of.
What you do with your horse is irrelevant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is it irrelavant what I do with my horse?
If you make a "quality of life" list it should be relevant to every horse with any disability and I'm quite surprised you couldn't give a direct answer to my question.
Anyway, despite these disabilities, I've no doubt in my mind, that "Molly" and my own horse both have a very good "quality of life"....end of!!
EstherSupporter
Well-Known Member
Seems to me there are a few ppl on this forum with the attitude-if you cant make money out of the horse then it must die as it's worthless.....
Doesnt matter if it can be given some sort of comfortable life with caring people....it wont make any money so get rid of it and hide the reason behind - oh but its better to clean up the 'crap' horses and slaughter them its kinder!!!!
What a joke.....and you call yourselves horse lovers ......you dont have a clue what it means and then you have the nerve to critisise anyone who does and who actually do things to help the unwanted horses instead of slaughtering them.
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Seems to me there are a few ppl on this forum with the attitude-if you cant make money out of the horse then it must die as it's worthless.....
Doesnt matter if it can be given some sort of comfortable life with caring people....it wont make any money so get rid of it and hide the reason behind - oh but its better to clean up the 'crap' horses and slaughter them its kinder!!!!
What a joke.....and you call yourselves horse lovers ......you dont have a clue what it means and then you have the nerve to critisise anyone who does and who actually do things to help the unwanted horses instead of slaughtering them.
[/ QUOTE ]
You know what? You talk utter cr@p - come to my place, see my 30 year old (who, incidentally broke her leg when she was 10 years old), I scraped together the money to have the leg operated on and nursed her back to health (with the aid of my superb vet), she has been a lawnmower for the last 15 years and gets the BEST of everything, her quality of life is fantastic, don't you DARE judge me.
I am concerned ONLY with the horse in this particular situation and IMHO she will only continue to suffer pain beyond what I would deem acceptable, sometimes, if you TRULY love an animal, you have to let it go and let it go with dignity, it is the last service we can do for them.
Seems to me there are a few ppl on this forum with the attitude-if you cant make money out of the horse then it must die as it's worthless.....
Doesnt matter if it can be given some sort of comfortable life with caring people....it wont make any money so get rid of it and hide the reason behind - oh but its better to clean up the 'crap' horses and slaughter them its kinder!!!!
What a joke.....and you call yourselves horse lovers ......you dont have a clue what it means and then you have the nerve to critisise anyone who does and who actually do things to help the unwanted horses instead of slaughtering them.
[/ QUOTE ]
You know what? You talk utter cr@p - come to my place, see my 30 year old (who, incidentally broke her leg when she was 10 years old), I scraped together the money to have the leg operated on and nursed her back to health (with the aid of my superb vet), she has been a lawnmower for the last 15 years and gets the BEST of everything, her quality of life is fantastic, don't you DARE judge me.
I am concerned ONLY with the horse in this particular situation and IMHO she will only continue to suffer pain beyond what I would deem acceptable, sometimes, if you TRULY love an animal, you have to let it go and let it go with dignity, it is the last service we can do for them.
EstherSupporter
Well-Known Member
No it's not I who talks the crap....
I didnt personally point the finger at you, did I?
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
As a matter of interest EstherSupporter, at what point would you make the decision to euthanase a horse?
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For instance, included on your "quality of life" list.......
"The horse WILL have falls" due to narcolepsy, my horse DOES collapse.
"Freedom from Pain"......my horse suffers with navicular, this is a very painful condition but as with pressure sores, this can be controlled with constant care and medication.
"Freedom to Gallop and Roll in the mud"...due to navicular, my horse finds it to painful to gallop.
So, according to your list, it appears my horse doesn't have a "good quality of life" either...therefore, would you suggest that he should be pts!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
The horse is a 'flight' creature by nature, the horse in question has THREE legs, there is no doubt in my mind that it should be PTS end of.
What you do with your horse is irrelevant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is it irrelavant what I do with my horse?
If you make a "quality of life" list it should be relevant to every horse with any disability and I'm quite surprised you couldn't give a direct answer to my question.
Anyway, despite these disabilities, I've no doubt in my mind, that "Molly" and my own horse both have a very good "quality of life"....end of!!
[/ QUOTE ]
OK my answers for you:
Collapsing with narcolepsy is not quite the same as continued FALLS, with narcolepsy the horse is asleep when it collapses, ergo it would not feel the same trauma and stress as a horse who was fully aware (you do realise that when a horse is down involuntarily, as a prey animal it is in full fear of it's life?)
Have you ever spoken or seen someone with pressure sores? If you had, you would realise that a little bit of bute and some cream does not relieve the pressure.
Even if your horse is finds galloping painful - you still cannot compare it to this horse, who can do nothing more than a walk.
Oh and BTW I have had a horse with navicular, and I do not believe it comes close to losing a leg - sorry.
[ QUOTE ]
For instance, included on your "quality of life" list.......
"The horse WILL have falls" due to narcolepsy, my horse DOES collapse.
"Freedom from Pain"......my horse suffers with navicular, this is a very painful condition but as with pressure sores, this can be controlled with constant care and medication.
"Freedom to Gallop and Roll in the mud"...due to navicular, my horse finds it to painful to gallop.
So, according to your list, it appears my horse doesn't have a "good quality of life" either...therefore, would you suggest that he should be pts!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
The horse is a 'flight' creature by nature, the horse in question has THREE legs, there is no doubt in my mind that it should be PTS end of.
What you do with your horse is irrelevant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is it irrelavant what I do with my horse?
If you make a "quality of life" list it should be relevant to every horse with any disability and I'm quite surprised you couldn't give a direct answer to my question.
Anyway, despite these disabilities, I've no doubt in my mind, that "Molly" and my own horse both have a very good "quality of life"....end of!!
[/ QUOTE ]
OK my answers for you:
Collapsing with narcolepsy is not quite the same as continued FALLS, with narcolepsy the horse is asleep when it collapses, ergo it would not feel the same trauma and stress as a horse who was fully aware (you do realise that when a horse is down involuntarily, as a prey animal it is in full fear of it's life?)
Have you ever spoken or seen someone with pressure sores? If you had, you would realise that a little bit of bute and some cream does not relieve the pressure.
Even if your horse is finds galloping painful - you still cannot compare it to this horse, who can do nothing more than a walk.
Oh and BTW I have had a horse with navicular, and I do not believe it comes close to losing a leg - sorry.
JM07
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Seems to me there are a few ppl on this forum with the attitude-if you cant make money out of the horse then it must die as it's worthless.....
Doesnt matter if it can be given some sort of comfortable life with caring people....it wont make any money so get rid of it and hide the reason behind - oh but its better to clean up the 'crap' horses and slaughter them its kinder!!!!
What a joke.....and you call yourselves horse lovers ......you dont have a clue what it means and then you have the nerve to critisise anyone who does and who actually do things to help the unwanted horses instead of slaughtering them.
[/ QUOTE ]
why don't you ES...just Bugger off, eh??
you are clearly someone who is quite "horse" illiterate.
in fact you are VERY funny...
i REALLY REALLY hope you DONT own any equines...god help them.....
Seems to me there are a few ppl on this forum with the attitude-if you cant make money out of the horse then it must die as it's worthless.....
Doesnt matter if it can be given some sort of comfortable life with caring people....it wont make any money so get rid of it and hide the reason behind - oh but its better to clean up the 'crap' horses and slaughter them its kinder!!!!
What a joke.....and you call yourselves horse lovers ......you dont have a clue what it means and then you have the nerve to critisise anyone who does and who actually do things to help the unwanted horses instead of slaughtering them.
[/ QUOTE ]
why don't you ES...just Bugger off, eh??
you are clearly someone who is quite "horse" illiterate.
in fact you are VERY funny...
i REALLY REALLY hope you DONT own any equines...god help them.....
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
No it's not I who talks the crap....
I didnt personally point the finger at you, did I?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well it appeared that way, no matter, having read a few of your posts now, I am still of the opinion that nothing but crap is spoken in cloud cuckoo land.
No it's not I who talks the crap....
I didnt personally point the finger at you, did I?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well it appeared that way, no matter, having read a few of your posts now, I am still of the opinion that nothing but crap is spoken in cloud cuckoo land.
Tia
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Seems to me there are a few ppl on this forum with the attitude-if you cant make money out of the horse then it must die as it's worthless.....
Doesnt matter if it can be given some sort of comfortable life with caring people....it wont make any money so get rid of it and hide the reason behind - oh but its better to clean up the 'crap' horses and slaughter them its kinder!!!!
What a joke.....and you call yourselves horse lovers ......you dont have a clue what it means and then you have the nerve to critisise anyone who does and who actually do things to help the unwanted horses instead of slaughtering them.
[/ QUOTE ]
God what planet do you live on.....
Seems to me there are a few ppl on this forum with the attitude-if you cant make money out of the horse then it must die as it's worthless.....
Doesnt matter if it can be given some sort of comfortable life with caring people....it wont make any money so get rid of it and hide the reason behind - oh but its better to clean up the 'crap' horses and slaughter them its kinder!!!!
What a joke.....and you call yourselves horse lovers ......you dont have a clue what it means and then you have the nerve to critisise anyone who does and who actually do things to help the unwanted horses instead of slaughtering them.
[/ QUOTE ]
God what planet do you live on.....
M_G
Well-Known Member
I am more than aware that circumstances change I recently had to sell my much beloved mare who had been with me for 8 years (since she was a foal)...It broke my heart to do it but there was no way I could afford her anymore what with the rising cost of living ..So yes I do know all about circumstances changing. I personaly wouldnt keep a horse of mine alive if it was in constant pain and there was no hope that the pain would ever go, we are all different and isnt it great that we are
M_G
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Seems to me there are a few ppl on this forum with the attitude-if you cant make money out of the horse then it must die as it's worthless.....
Doesnt matter if it can be given some sort of comfortable life with caring people....it wont make any money so get rid of it and hide the reason behind - oh but its better to clean up the 'crap' horses and slaughter them its kinder!!!!
What a joke.....and you call yourselves horse lovers ......you dont have a clue what it means and then you have the nerve to critisise anyone who does and who actually do things to help the unwanted horses instead of slaughtering them.
[/ QUOTE ]
You do talk out of your ar$e.....Is there not a nice NH site that you could go on and hug bunnys with the others?
I think you will find the people you talk of are realists!!
Seems to me there are a few ppl on this forum with the attitude-if you cant make money out of the horse then it must die as it's worthless.....
Doesnt matter if it can be given some sort of comfortable life with caring people....it wont make any money so get rid of it and hide the reason behind - oh but its better to clean up the 'crap' horses and slaughter them its kinder!!!!
What a joke.....and you call yourselves horse lovers ......you dont have a clue what it means and then you have the nerve to critisise anyone who does and who actually do things to help the unwanted horses instead of slaughtering them.
[/ QUOTE ]
You do talk out of your ar$e.....Is there not a nice NH site that you could go on and hug bunnys with the others?
I think you will find the people you talk of are realists!!
brummel
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
OK my answers for you:
Collapsing with narcolepsy is not quite the same as continued FALLS, with narcolepsy the horse is asleep when it collapses, ergo it would not feel the same trauma and stress as a horse who was fully aware (you do realise that when a horse is down involuntarily, as a prey animal it is in full fear of it's life?)
Have you ever spoken or seen someone with pressure sores? If you had, you would realise that a little bit of bute and some cream does not relieve the pressure.
Even if your horse is finds galloping painful - you still cannot compare it to this horse, who can do nothing more than a walk.
Oh and BTW I have had a horse with navicular, and I do not believe it comes close to losing a leg - sorry.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hold on a minute, you only linked falling down with pain, which [if you remember] was the first item on your quality of life list!!!!
Quote:
OK - here is my list
Freedom from Pain
Freedom from Thirst
Freedom from Hunger
Freedom to Gallop and Roll in the mud
"The first one won't happen, the horse WILL have falls, she will also develop pressure sores FACT."
Well FACT, my horse has suffered pain and injury on a few occasions when he's collapsed while having a narc attack, so, where's the difference there?
Now if you want to discuss horse psychology that's fine, it's just up my street, but let's not confuse the two matters on this occasion.
Pressure sores....to answer your question..YES, I do know about them and I will repeat again, with constant care and attention they can be kept under control.
Galloping was also included on your "quality of life" list, to which my horse is unable to enjoy due to navicular.
Although "Molly" wouldn't be able to gallop, according to this link, she CAN do more than walk.......
http://www.muttshack.org/advocate.htm
Quote:
Four months later, now fitted with a custom-made prosthesis supplied by a commercial firm, Molly trots around her pasture and functions normally
You mention you had a horse with navicular, therefore, he must have also found it painful to gallop, so because he didn't pass your "quality of life" criteria.... did you have him pts?
"so.....two out of four = 50% of a life hmmmmm, is that good I don't think so.
Your words...not mine!!!!
OK my answers for you:
Collapsing with narcolepsy is not quite the same as continued FALLS, with narcolepsy the horse is asleep when it collapses, ergo it would not feel the same trauma and stress as a horse who was fully aware (you do realise that when a horse is down involuntarily, as a prey animal it is in full fear of it's life?)
Have you ever spoken or seen someone with pressure sores? If you had, you would realise that a little bit of bute and some cream does not relieve the pressure.
Even if your horse is finds galloping painful - you still cannot compare it to this horse, who can do nothing more than a walk.
Oh and BTW I have had a horse with navicular, and I do not believe it comes close to losing a leg - sorry.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hold on a minute, you only linked falling down with pain, which [if you remember] was the first item on your quality of life list!!!!
Quote:
OK - here is my list
Freedom from Pain
Freedom from Thirst
Freedom from Hunger
Freedom to Gallop and Roll in the mud
"The first one won't happen, the horse WILL have falls, she will also develop pressure sores FACT."
Well FACT, my horse has suffered pain and injury on a few occasions when he's collapsed while having a narc attack, so, where's the difference there?
Pressure sores....to answer your question..YES, I do know about them and I will repeat again, with constant care and attention they can be kept under control.
Galloping was also included on your "quality of life" list, to which my horse is unable to enjoy due to navicular.
Although "Molly" wouldn't be able to gallop, according to this link, she CAN do more than walk.......
http://www.muttshack.org/advocate.htm
Quote:
Four months later, now fitted with a custom-made prosthesis supplied by a commercial firm, Molly trots around her pasture and functions normally
You mention you had a horse with navicular, therefore, he must have also found it painful to gallop, so because he didn't pass your "quality of life" criteria.... did you have him pts?
"so.....two out of four = 50% of a life hmmmmm, is that good I don't think so.
Your words...not mine!!!!
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
In answer to your question re navicula, no I did not have my horse PTS, she is, in fact still with me albeit 30 years old now, this same horse broke her leg three years later and we fixed it with screws etc. So no, I do not advocate putting to sleep a horse that has some chance of a decent life.
Now I have put that straight, I still feel that this particular little mare is a different scenario. The horse in the UK that underwent this op, had, pressure sores continually, despite all the care and attention given him, he could not get up again once he had laid in his stable, had several distressing falls and could not go out if the ground was even slightly off, it was a real case of the owner, however well intentioned, putting her own feelings before the needs of the horse. So I am sorry, no matter what you put forward to me regarding your own horse, and your own circumstances, we will just have to agree to differ.
Now I have put that straight, I still feel that this particular little mare is a different scenario. The horse in the UK that underwent this op, had, pressure sores continually, despite all the care and attention given him, he could not get up again once he had laid in his stable, had several distressing falls and could not go out if the ground was even slightly off, it was a real case of the owner, however well intentioned, putting her own feelings before the needs of the horse. So I am sorry, no matter what you put forward to me regarding your own horse, and your own circumstances, we will just have to agree to differ.
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
You are right, it is great that we are all different.
It is, as they say, what makes the world go round!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is also great that we can have the debates we do. I am passionate about the way I feel regarding the pony, and I know that you and many other are too. What I don't understand is when people make personal attacks on each other. Do you actually know me and do I actually know you, no , we are faceless voices, chewing the fat, as they say. You don't have to agree with what I say, and I don't have to agree with you. If my opinion is asked (and sometimes even when it isn't
) I will give my view on the argument, passionately at times, as I have notice will some of you. I will point out the flaws that I see IMO, of what they are saying and have a come back to strengthen my views, for this I will not apologise, that is a debate, that is education, that is life.
A debate is for the purpose of education and understanding, not personal digs and private vendettas.
I do hope that everyones horses and ponies are happy, healthy and well cared for, as long as the owner feels their animal has quality of life (which could differ from one person to another, as we have worked out), then on this subject I will debate no more.
Right, what will we debate next.
It is also great that we can have the debates we do. I am passionate about the way I feel regarding the pony, and I know that you and many other are too. What I don't understand is when people make personal attacks on each other. Do you actually know me and do I actually know you, no , we are faceless voices, chewing the fat, as they say. You don't have to agree with what I say, and I don't have to agree with you. If my opinion is asked (and sometimes even when it isn't
A debate is for the purpose of education and understanding, not personal digs and private vendettas.
I do hope that everyones horses and ponies are happy, healthy and well cared for, as long as the owner feels their animal has quality of life (which could differ from one person to another, as we have worked out), then on this subject I will debate no more.
Right, what will we debate next.
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
Completely agree, and, as you have probably guessed, I do love a good civilised debate.
I very rarely lose my temper, but do confess I did last night (not with you or with smallholder - we were debating) , but with the poster who made sweeping and accusatory statements, for the very first time I lost it on line
- was really tempted to press the IU button, but sadly for me, am far too nosy
Edited because I can't spell
I very rarely lose my temper, but do confess I did last night (not with you or with smallholder - we were debating) , but with the poster who made sweeping and accusatory statements, for the very first time I lost it on line
Edited because I can't spell
brummel
Well-Known Member
The only reason I mentioned my own horse's disabilities in the first place was in response to your quality of life assessment. According to it...I should have had him pts a couple of years ago!!!
Everyone is entitled to their views and opinions on any subject and Molly is no exception, but I did take a stance to that bloody criteria list
.....I just wanted to make a point that every horse and every situation is different. No horse owner can be ruled by a quality of life list.
If nothing else, I think we both now agree on this......
Everyone is entitled to their views and opinions on any subject and Molly is no exception, but I did take a stance to that bloody criteria list
If nothing else, I think we both now agree on this......
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
I think that the nastiness comes out when people feel they have no more to add or have lost the debate, so they just get personal. What they don't understand is that actually a good debate is NEVER won or lost by anyone. I hope that when I do debate, I have the foresight to keep my mind open, you never know I might learn something.
I learnt last night that a spanish noseband is called a seretta (serretta, still not sure of the spelling)
Oh and by the way what is IU and what happens when you press it.??????????????????????????????
I learnt last night that a spanish noseband is called a seretta (serretta, still not sure of the spelling)
Oh and by the way what is IU and what happens when you press it.??????????????????????????????